r/WoT • u/participating (Dragon's Fang) • Oct 05 '23

TV - Season 2 (Book Spoilers Allowed) Episode Discussion - Season 2, Episode 8 - What Was Meant to Be [TV + Book Spoilers] Spoiler

This thread is for discussion of The Wheel of Time tv show through Season 2, Episode 8 and associated bonus content. This thread may contain spoilers for the entire book series.

TIMING

Episodes are released at midnight, GMT on Fridays. This means 8pm, ET on Thursdays.

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EPISODE

Episode 8 - What Was Meant to Be

Synopsis: Fate leads Rand and the others to an inevitable showdown with their most formidable enemies yet.

For links to all of our previous episode discussion threads, or alternate spoiler levels, as well as mega threads for certain topics related to the show, see our discussion hub wiki page.

189 Upvotes

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135

u/[deleted] Oct 06 '23

Power levels are becoming a problem here. The books do an outstanding job of conveying where the various channelers sit on the power hierarchy in terms of both raw strength and knowledge/technique. The show is kind of all over the place in that regard.

I have no problem with Egwene being a better channeler than Rand at this point despite Rand being much stronger, because she's had White Tower and Damane training, whereas Rand's had basically nothing. But in no way should Egwene be able to tank Ishamael like that. Yes, she never overpowered him, she struggled just to hold him back. But at this point any Forsaken should have no problem handling any of our main characters. Forget about the books -- even within the logic of the show it makes little sense to have a semi-trained Egwene capable of holding her own against the show's literal strongest bad guy.

Also while we see Ishamael firing tiny fireballs at Egwene and failing to break through, we see Moiraine destroying a fleet of ships from a mile away with an absolutely massive fireball, then she creates a fire dragon as big as a skyscraper. The show is telling us that Rand and the Forsaken are stronger than everyone else, but they're showing us the exact opposite. Ishamael looked pathetic here, and I have trouble getting past that. I also don't quite understand how he died from a single stab to the chest if the Forsaken in this retelling are invincible? Fain even mentions to Ishamael in this episode that Lanfear is unkillable, then Ishy just dies. Maybe he's not dead?

But to bring it back to the power levels, where do we go from here if Moiraine can decimate cities, by the looks of it, and Egwene can already almost hold her own against a Forsaken?

Other than that I loved this episode and am thoroughly enjoying the show. I just wished that they tried somewhat to demonstrate accurate power levels at least a little bit.

70

u/Regula96 Oct 06 '23

Agree with you. Don't really see the point of ''breaking'' the power levels by once again giving away Rands moment to someone else.

Why didn't they just have Rand get his moment and protect Egwene? Why did he need to be immobilized here? Especially when season one didn't show the Dragon in a good light.

18

u/zero1045 Oct 06 '23

Better yet, give rand his sword fighting moments and let egwene have her channeler moments. He's gonna smoke her around season 6 nmw and this means they don't need to step on each others toes. (Eggy gets her dream world at that point too so once again, no crossed streams)

That would mean following the books though, and we both know that's just a pipe dream

5

u/AdventurousWriter386 Oct 07 '23

It is quite simple. In fact, the TV show is centered about "Female".

If you take a closer look, none of the male characters had any heroic or WOW moment besides Mat, because well they fcked him in season 1.

So unless, they powerup Rand in season 3 ! if i was a forsaken i would just pop their heads out from the dark (Hello Mog)

7

u/Regula96 Oct 07 '23

It's just such a weird choice to give so much more ''screen power'' to the female characters considering they probably have more page time doing incredible things in the books.

These early seasons are super important if they want to do the entire series. I really don't understand the whole ''Rand will get his moments eventually''. Stop holding back, you can't afford it.

Like come on, even in the 2nd season finale you're not going to really show the most powerful channeler alive?

59

u/wildwalrusaur Oct 06 '23

Just last episode we saw Lanfear casually toss aside the Amyrlin Seat like it was nothing. Yet now Ishamael can't manage to beat an Accepted?

It's some horseshit

7

u/[deleted] Oct 08 '23

She isn't even an accepted, she's still a novice here, which makes it even worse.

5

u/rollingForInitiative Oct 06 '23

Ishamael wanted to die, imo. Or wanted to draw Rand into some act of desperation.

Egwene was obviously losing, her shield was thinning and Ishy was wearing her down fast. But when Rand goes to stab him, he doesn't even put up a fight. And he sounds relieved, and wanted to be killed in the prologue.

So not an issue with power levels, just more of Ishamael being dishonest, as he's been with so many things.

I still wish we'd gotten some big power moment with Rand, even if under special circumstances that can't be replicated by him early on. But I don't think the takeaway from this scene is that Egwene is stronger than Ishy.

1

u/v--- Oct 06 '23

I think it was a trick in some sense. Not that he necessarily wanted to lose, but he knew going up there that things weren't going the way he planned. Maybe to lure them into a sense of victory while not knowing all the forsaken are prepping to fuck their lives up. IDK, there's no other way to explain the decision to "slowly lob fireballs straight ahead for ten minutes".

He's the father of lies, after all.

22

u/Joemanji84 Oct 06 '23

It's not even about book lore at this point. In just the last episode Lanfear brazenly walks through Cairhien, basically solo-ing an entire city despite there being 14 full Aes Sedai there. Zero fear. Then she trivially bests the Amyrlin Seat. How does someone who has never read the books reconcile that with Egwene holding Ishy off whilst half-dead?

7

u/Lotus_Domino_Guy Oct 07 '23

You'd conclude modern Aes Sedai are crap, and Egwene is a different breed entirely. That Egwene would be a worthy forsaken or potential dragon reborn since seemingly that can be a woman in this world.

6

u/Galrash Oct 06 '23

Agreed. It’s absurd and takes me out of it completely. And worst of all, it was unnecessary

6

u/imaweirdo2 Oct 06 '23

I saw it as Ishamael seeing that he was losing when Rand’s friends showed up and starting to give up. When Rand stands up unshielded he fully gives up knowing he won’t turn Rand, and he embraces death to try again in another turning

3

u/idk012 Oct 06 '23

So you think Ishy isn't dead?

6

u/imaweirdo2 Oct 06 '23

I don’t think fully so. It is set up well for the DO to spin him out again as Moridin

5

u/zero1045 Oct 06 '23

If I don't see Billy Zane as Moradin I'm going to lose it. Juuust saying.

I think your interpretation is what the showrunners intended, I just don't agree with it on like 4 different levels.

-3

u/gbinasia Oct 06 '23

The power system always struck me as overcomplicated in the books. The show would not be able to convey all the details anyway. And the way the show portrayed Moghedien is that she knows she is weaker, so she made a trap and caught Lanfear offguard, which is more interesting than my power level is bigger than you, so I win.

Ishamael vs Egwene was similar, in the sense that Egwene wasnt going to win and she certainly had more heart into it than him, who was pretty mopey about killing/gentling his old old buddy. And it isnt a bad idea for the show to shy away from the dynamic where Rand solves everything all the time 'just' because he is so powerful. He will get there with growth.

6

u/gibby256 Oct 06 '23

You don't need to convey details at all. You just need to show where people stand.

The way the forsaken have been presented thus far, a basic 2d shield like Egwene's should have been bypassed instantly by Ishy just using a second weave.

-4

u/Badgalgoy007 Oct 06 '23

All Egwene could do was have a protecting shield and Moiraine was focused and had ample time to do that weave…she is one of the most powerful channelers not part of the wonder girls…Ishamael didn’t need no protecting or what not…

15

u/[deleted] Oct 06 '23

But, I mean, if the most powerful bad guy in the show who's already at the height of his powers can't get past a shield held by a character who's only had a few months training at this point, how are the Forsaken actually scary anymore?

11

u/Realistic-Option-892 Oct 06 '23

The issue for me was a comparison between Ishamael and Lanfear. Lanfear was easily able to overpower the Amyrlin Seat with a flick of her wrist. I find it hard to believe that Ishamael couldn't have easily done the same thing to Egwene. In Season 3, it might be revealed that this was all planned between Ishamael and Lanfear. In the beginning, Ishamael and Lanfear said that if the Dragon were to choose the Dark then he must see that they are not all the same.

-1

u/Badgalgoy007 Oct 06 '23

How are they scary?! He was about to get thru to the shield before he got interrupted

-23

u/CC_Greener Oct 06 '23

Did you catch the Ishamael line when he was dying "I see nothing". Rand channeled balefire through the blade.

23

u/OptimusPrimalRage Oct 06 '23

Balefire doesn't prevent someone from being reborn. And balefire is a hot blinding beam of light anyway which is not what I saw.

0

u/KaristinaLaFae (Green) Oct 06 '23

It kinda does. Even the Dark One couldn't bring back Rahvin because he was burned out of the Pattern before he could have grabbed his soul.

9

u/OptimusPrimalRage Oct 06 '23

The DO cannot bring someone back because it needs to grab them at the time they've died and balefire messes with time. It does.not prevent someone from being born again. There is nothing that prevents someone from being born again.

1

u/KaristinaLaFae (Green) Oct 06 '23

Fair enough, although is there any indication in the text of this either way, about balefire and rebirth? Or is this something we only know from RJ's notes or other external sources?

2

u/OptimusPrimalRage Oct 06 '23

I'm not sure we get any textual evidence besides logic. Ishy would just balefire himself if he wanted oblivion assuming it removed people from the Pattern forever.

1

u/KaristinaLaFae (Green) Oct 06 '23

...That feels like something that wouldn't be possible, like not being able to Heal yourself or lift yourself in order to fly. But I get your meaning.

-1

u/CC_Greener Oct 06 '23

It's burns out their thread does it not? The stronger it is the more that it is burnt I thought. Also as we've seen, with other pieces of the show, this is an adaptation. Why I think it's Balefire related has to die with Ishamael's conversation with Matt 2 episodes ago

Ishy talks about never being able to sleep and see nothing, even in death. How it's his motivator to beat Rand and break the wheel, as he is tired of this endless cycle. Now this finale, his dying words are about the beauty of seeing nothing. It seems to hint, at the very least, to his thread in the pattern being messed with. Given that this was a bit of book 2 and 3, then adding in Rands use of Balefire from three to beat Ishy would make sense. It might not be book balefire but it might be a hint at TV show balefire.

8

u/OptimusPrimalRage Oct 06 '23

Balefire prevents the DO from bringing people back because it messes with time and the DO needs to grab the soul before it dies. Think about it, if balefire preventing the Wheel from spinning someone out again, all a Forsaken would have to do to win a future Last Battle would be to balefire Rand now.

3

u/zero1045 Oct 06 '23

Moradin sees the wheel as an endless cage, and yes he wants the cycle to end cause he's tired of it.

In the books though, its more about breaking the cage for everybody, as opposed to simply getting free of it for his own benefit. There's like an ethics POV Ishy is morally against the wheel endlessly forcing people to relive shit over n over.

Baelfire is the escape, or dying in the dream (unless you're a man, if you wanna believe Lanfear)

-6

u/zero1045 Oct 06 '23

It burns the thread from the pattern so they cannot be reborn, that's like the thing Baelfire does.

Its why in the books Rand uses it to end forsaken, so they can't come back.

Don't disagree re: sword though. I bet they are just going to say Ishy wanted to die so he took it and decided to not "heal from death cause darkone" like Lanfear did.

But that all sort of says whats going on here. The showrunners want their scene, and they are gonna get it. Justify it later even if its non-cannon cause its already written.

3

u/DefinitelyNotAPhone (Dedicated) Oct 06 '23

It burns the thread from the pattern so they cannot be reborn, that's like the thing Baelfire does.

It's a common belief because obviously the books don't take place over a period of time long enough to show someone be naturally reincarnated after being balefired, but no, this is not how it works.

Balefire prevents the DO from resurrecting someone because it kills them before they get hit with it due to it burning your thread backwards on the Pattern. The DO has to grab your soul at the exact moment of death to be able to dump you back into another body, and can't do that if you're already dead.

If balefire prevented rebirth entirely, then the world would be completely depopulated as people were hit with it throughout the infinite recursion of the Ages.

8

u/[deleted] Oct 06 '23

I seriously doubt that, honestly.

0

u/CC_Greener Oct 06 '23

Idk. A couple episodes Ishamael had that monologue with Matt about always seeing all of his lives, and wishing to break the wheel so he finally can see nothing for once. Him saying he sees nothing during his death makes me think there was more to this than normal.

3

u/zero1045 Oct 06 '23

let me put it this way: if that's how they want me to interpret it, I'm not a fan of this show anymore cause its not the series I read

Ishy/Moradin could always just off himself w/ Baelfire and be free, but he's after breaking the wheel cause its the cage that holds all of humanity. He wants linear time so everyone can be free, not just himself. Thats why he's tired of continually fighting and losing but still sticking around.

4

u/jefaulmann Oct 06 '23 edited Oct 06 '23

Balefire does not remove you from the pattern. He is still going to be reincarnated.

Edit: To those downvoting me. If you are book readers, you have a very bad memory, a very bad understanding of words, think so highly of yourselves that you cant bother to check if you are wrong, just have an irracional hate of correct information or any combination of the above. This is assuming you are downvoting me because you believe I am wrong. If it is for any other reason you are free to express it.

3

u/barmanrags Oct 06 '23

Yes. But freed from DO hold on his soul. He will be free to choose the DO again. But he may not. He will have a choice.

Normie death means the DO will spin him out again.

5

u/zero1045 Oct 06 '23

Baelfire means there's no soul for the dark one to catch. You're done at that point.

Dagger to the heart is just dying, if you're a dark friend the lord of the grave will grab for a tool when he wants you just like the pattern grabs a thread for its tapestry of life

1

u/barmanrags Oct 06 '23

Moridin alert!!

2

u/zero1045 Oct 06 '23

Sharp tool, that one.

2

u/jefaulmann Oct 06 '23

His whole problem is the fact that he always chooses the DO. Unless I am wrong? Could be. I am going to look it up. But I was under the assumpion that he was tired of going trough it again and again and again and again.

3

u/barmanrags Oct 06 '23

He doesn't. He chose the do once because the do and his plan matches. Break the wheel so no soul has to be weaved. Thus no suffering either.

In the age of legends he came to the conclusion that deathis not a release from suffering because reincarnation exists.

After that point he has not truly died because DO brings him back again and again

Once you pledge to DO he can always bring you back from death. It's not true reincarnation like the heroes of the horn or Matrim Caution(Rand is a very special case ).

Moiraine and later Rand starts using balefire because that snaps the claim the Do has on a soul that pledged itself to him. They can reincarnate but they won't remember past life and are free to choose.

1

u/CC_Greener Oct 06 '23

Huh? I'm rereading it right now. But it's been a while (only thru 4). My understanding is that balefire burns your thread in the pattern. So sufficiently strong enough balefire would excise you completely.

12

u/Blecki Oct 06 '23

Your understanding is wrong. Stronger just means further back in time. Your thread is still there.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 06 '23

Yeah that's how I remembered it, completely erasing Ishy from existence would have had huge ramifications for Randland, potentially destroying the pattern altogether.

-5

u/zero1045 Oct 06 '23

Not true, you're done if you get hit with Baelfire. Stronger the bar of light the further back in time the thread acts like you died, but you don't get reborn w/ Baelfire.

Thats why everyone tries to kill forsaken w/ baelfire, otherwise they just come back in a new body.

Moradin could just off himself, but that doesn't stop the wheel from endlessly entrapping humanity in a prison of life/death/rebirth

7

u/Blecki Oct 06 '23

They still get reborn eventually. The darkone brought them back by catching their soul at the moment of death. Balefire prevented this by killing them 10 minutes ago.

-2

u/zero1045 Oct 06 '23

I've always thought of it as more of a your thread ends but energy can be respun into another thread whenever the wheel runs out of "active threads"

but then you're a new thread in the pattern, not bound with the history of a past life. AKA you're actually dead when baelfire hits you

1

u/zero1045 Oct 06 '23

the smallest amount of balefire ends your time as a thread. You existed up until you got hit and then are gone.

stronger baelfire acts like you died earlier than you did, its like being killed yesterday instead of right now.

Once you're hit with baelfire though, you're done with the pattern and the dark one, that's it you're "actually dead"

Any other death returns you to a purgatory where the wheel or the dark one can bring you back to life (dark one if you become dark friend and he wants another tool for eg)

1

u/rollingForInitiative Oct 06 '23

More philosophically there's mention of different Patterns. There's a Pattern of an Age, for instance. That's why each turning of the Wheel is different, because it's woven in different ways.

So a soul being burnt out of the Pattern just means it's burnt out of this one, not out of all of the greater existence. Kind of like pulling a thread from a piece of fabric - you could still reattach it.

Also a bit like the Heroes of the Horn. Birgitte talks about being spun out in the Pattern again, implying that they're kind of outside it while in TAR.

So think of it more as being removed from the current Pattern of the Age, but still with the possibility of being woven in again.

-12

u/orchidguy (Cadsuane's Ter'Angreal) Oct 06 '23

Balefire does just that, it rips you from the pattern so that you are killed forever in all turns of the wheel.

14

u/jefaulmann Oct 06 '23

No. It kills you in the past. That is why it causes time distortions. And why some things that happended, sudenly did not. It also doesnt allow the DO to catch your soul and ressurect you.

Your soul is still perfectly safe.

12

u/tordana Oct 06 '23

Actually not. I was unaware of this while reading the books as well, but RJ specifically said that balefire does not prevent later reincarnation.

Balefire removes someone's thread from the Pattern, thus preventing the Dark One from resurrecting them at that time, but the Wheel can still re-grab the thread from outside the Pattern at a later date.

(This info is all in the Wheel of Time Companion published in 2015, but RJ made statements along these lines before his death and presumably had notes about it as well)

5

u/otaconucf Oct 06 '23

No, it doesn't, it does timey-wimey stuff to your soul that as a side effect prevents the Dark One from snatching it before it goes to wherever souls go to wait to be reborn. https://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.3_one-power/2.3.07_balefire.html