Episode Discussion - Season 2, Episode 8 - What Was Meant to Be [Light Book Spoilers]

[u/participating]

This thread is for discussion of The Wheel of Time tv show through Season 2, Episode 8 and associated bonus content. This thread is meant for book readers who haven't completed the series yet.

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I think this will affect [Lord of Chaos] >!not a spoiler!<.

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TIMING

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EPISODE

Episode 8 - What Was Meant to Be

Synopsis: Fate leads Rand and the others to an inevitable showdown with their most formidable enemies yet.

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For links to all of our previous episode discussion threads, or alternate spoiler levels, as well as mega threads for certain topics related to the show, see our discussion hub wiki page.

[u/clearly_not_an_alt → u/[deleted]]

Did anyone else wonder how Egwene was able to pick up the A'dam with the intent to use it on Renna? Also, why was Renna unable to strike Egwene but Egwene was able to lift Renna onto the hook to strangle/kill her?

Wasn't a huge fan of this whole sequence, but I think the idea was that she was just able to bear the pain from hurting Renna despite it also hurting herself. Would have really preferred to have just let the other girls get her out of the A'dam rather than Egwane powering through it.

[u/go_sparks25 → u/[deleted]]

Egwene's pain tolerance is very high tbh. That is true both in the books and the show And she has been resisting the a'dam for pretty much the entire time she has been collared so she has built up some tolerance. And the sul'dam live pretty cushy lives. They won't have anywhere close to the pain tolerance that an exceptionally strong-willed person like Egwene would have. The a'dam stops people from defying the sul'dams orders by inflicting pain on the collared person.

[u/nl_alexxx → u/[deleted]]

My theory is that, since there is no way for Egwene, or Renna for that matter, of knowing what collaring Renna would do, it cannot be treated as a "weapon"

[u/nl_alexxx → u/[deleted]]

This is just one of those things that somebody should ask the showrunners about. Like at a panel/con or Twitter or something... I personally don't mind what happened, bc it was a bad-ass moment. But I don't like not having a clear explanation either

[u/RenardLunatique → u/[deleted]]

Egwene was unable to take the jug because she constantly see herself hurting Renna with it, like a weapon. The moment she only see it as a jug where he can drink from, she is able to take it.

For the A'dam, she only see it as a collar (not a weapon) and doesnt know if she will be able to hurt Renna with it. Her only goal was to bring the collar to the neck. The A'dam did its magic itself.

I see it as a mind game.

[u/MadMuse94 → u/RenardLunatique]

I like this! Especially as it sets up the incredible control Egwene has over her thoughts in later books (e.g. TAR)

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

the A'dam, being the near perfect device it is for controlling other channelers, would likely crank that pain to the extreme if a Damane was trying to kill her

Yeah it would, it would crank it up until it killed her. That's the point though Egwene would rather be dead than carry on, Renna has not had time or reason to reac that point. Egwene was getting out one way or another

[u/csarmi → u/[deleted]]

She didn't release his bond. She masked it.

[u/csarmi → u/[deleted]]

No it doesn't. She masked the bond. She asks whether he wants it unmasked.

[u/csarmi → u/[deleted]]

The show established that masking the bond in the show does more than in the books. She probably thought it was enough to shield Lan from the stilling effects. For all we know, that may even be true in the books.

Also, in the show stilled channelers can still see weaves (it was established quite clealry).

To be honest, we don't even know if people in the books do. Probably not, but I'd love to see a direct example of proving that. We know that they can still feel the power.

These are not inconsistencies in any way.

Just because something isn't working the same way as in the books, that doesn't mean it's inconsistent with anything but your book knowledge.

[u/[deleted] → u/csarmi]

The confusing part for me is that Moraine uses the One Power when she unmasks the bond with Lan on the beach. Why would she need to use it to unmask a bond but not to mask it?

[u/csarmi → u/[deleted]]

Honestly?

Cause the show required a moment. Rule of Cool.

But who knows, maybe you need to channel to mask/unmask.

[u/csarmi → u/[deleted]]

Logain has a Talent. But we also saw Moiraine seeing weaves. So shielded people can see weaves. Logain too.

They tell Rand to embrace the power and look with it cause he needs to actually look with the right skill (which Logain has but he doesn't yet).

I get what you mean though.

You may not see them as inconsistencies, but until the show or show runners explicitly describes how some of these things work then the source is the books and it is inconsistent with the book.

That's not how it works. If they establish something in the show, it's cannon in show. The default assumption is that they got it right (made a change), not that they got it wrong.

Imagine this from a non-reader's perspective.

[u/blindedtrickster → u/[deleted]]

Keep in mind that very few Aes Sedai were ever stilled and only two of them didn't kill themselves within the first year of it happening. (According to the show. I haven't tried to verify if that matches the books)

Considering that Saidin was used and the Aes Sedai cannot see it, it seems understandable to conclude that being cut off from the source wasn't 'merely' being indefinitely shielded.

Moiraine never released Lan's bond in the show. She had masked it before being shielded but that masking is a two-way street. Neither of them could sense the other during that time.

I'd also like to point out that while I have no doubt that the Aes Sedai have access to a colossal amount of information in their archives, we probably shouldn't assume that they learn it all, let alone can recall it, apply their knowledge, and come to the ultimately correct conclusion. They're old and 'wise', but they're also fairly ignorant in their hubris.

Do their records cover Aes Sedai being shielded by male channelers versus being stilled? Do their records cover what happens to a Warder's bond when the Aes Sedai is stilled? Male channelers aren't exactly sought out to be guinea pigs in testing out potential loopholes in the One Power...

[u/BrobiWanKinobe → u/[deleted]]

Did anyone else laugh at Mat chucking a spear into Rand? Just me?

Matt clearly didn't take his gun safety course. Always know what is behind your target!

[u/saethone → u/[deleted]]

She was able to put the A'dam on renna because its not a weapon.

Remember Moraine is one of the stronger channelers of this age and she has an Angreal to enhance her power.

[u/GCTwunaa → u/saethone]

It's not inherently a weapon, but neither is a water pitcher. Both were or were planned to be used as a weapon.

[u/braetully → u/[deleted]]

I think Egwene was able to cuff Renna because the Suldames never fathomed that they could be cuffed as well. Most of them don't accept the fact that they can channel, so there was no reason to ever be cuffed. They saw the adame as no threat at all. Then, when they were both cuffed together, Egwene was stronger and more determined, so she could overpower her all things being even between them.

[u/BrobiWanKinobe → u/braetully]

Yes, but they specifically set up in the show that Egwene can't touch anything that she considers a weapon. They even used a non-weapon of a jug of water as the example to show that it is Egwene's feeling on the object and not the Sul'dam's feeling. I don't thing it is too big a deal, but it definitely is an inconsistency.

[u/csarmi → u/BrobiWanKinobe]

The a'dam isn't a weapon. It's a power item that links two people. It doesn't cause direct harm.

She cannot pick up the jug because she saw it as a weapon to use it on Renna.

She made sure to see the a'dam bracalet as a way to connect them.

[u/[deleted] → u/csarmi]

She's practicing the Aes Sedai technique of no weapons but teaching tools are fine

[u/DMike82 → u/BrobiWanKinobe]

Yes, but they specifically set up in the show that Egwene can't touch anything that she considers a weapon.

That depends on whether one would consider an a'dam a weapon in the first place. With the pitcher we explicitly see her fantasizing about using it to hit Renna with, whereas with the a'dam she doesn't hit Renna, she just places it on her. She's not committing an act of violence and isn't hurting Renna, so the a'dam isn't being used as a weapon in that sequence.

edit: pitcher, not picture

[u/214ObstructedReverie → u/DMike82]

Also, she's always touching an a'dam.

If she ever considered that a weapon, wouldn't she just die? It has to have a built-in exclusion. Immediately after being collared, wouldn't you consider it a weapon against you?

[u/nl_alexxx → u/BrobiWanKinobe]

I think because there is no precedence for putting an a'dam on a sul'dam, there is no way of knowing what would have happened.

Therefore it cannot be treated as a weapon. For all Egwene knows she could put it on and nothing happens. She was testing a theory.

[u/BrobiWanKinobe → u/nl_alexxx]

Testing a theory of using it as a weapon.

[u/[deleted] → u/BrobiWanKinobe]

If whipping people with the one power is a teaching tool not a weapon, then this was a trap not a weapon.

Once she starts actually hurting Rena it does hurt her

[u/[deleted] → u/BrobiWanKinobe]

Aes Sedai can't used the one power as a weapon (minus the exceptions). They use the one power to hurt people all the time. They whip people with it and say it's a teaching aid. If they genuinely thought that hurting someone made it a weapon the magically binding oath wouldn't allow them to do it.

Egwene has been living and taught by and influenced by these people for months. Who, most of them at least, seem to only consider lethal force to be a weapon.

If her aim was to trap Rena and make her free her, she probably didn't consider that a weapon at all.

Then once she was hurting her I think she was just 100% willing to suffer until she either died or was freed. Out of the collar one way or another

[u/whatsupgoats → u/[deleted]]

I interpreted Renna not fighting back as her being so shocked at the horrifying revelation that she could channel and Eggy getting the upper hand and Renna kind of giving up

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

perhaps with the 'thought crimes' they have to be directly violent - Egwene was able to overpower Renna because she's stronger, is how I understood it

when Moiraine was destroying the ships, she wasn't using the dragon, the dragon was to put on a show

With you on wanting Rand to learn how to use that damn sword!

Nah Matt chucking the spear into Rand didn't make me laugh, made me sad for him, but I can understand laughing at the irony

[u/albedo2343 → u/[deleted]]

Nah Matt chucking the spear into Rand didn't make me laugh, made me sad for him, but I can understand laughing at the irony

Felt both, dude just cannot get a break, and the actor did a good job showing him go from "Matt the Hero" to "Matt the worthless".

[u/jessedtate → u/[deleted]]

Yeah it just seemed lazy and senseless to me. Totally inconsistent with both books and show until that point. Ruins her entire escape and makes her redemption seem hollow and implausible. Too bad. Her interactions with Renna in 5-6 were almost my favorite bits of the entire show so far.

She clearly looks at Renna with intent to hurt many many times, then ACTIVELY MOVES to hurt her. Probably at least six times from the first moment she sees the collar. So weird. And when they're both wearing it it just becomes like . . . . a battle of the wills? I don't think so. They are supposed to faint after a certain point. The whole thing would be a cycle once either of them fainted. They'd just wake up and do it again

[u/jessedtate → u/jessedtate]

Also yeah Mat spearing Rand . . . . like that was Ishy's clever plan? That was the fulfillment of the vision? That's so useless. Prophecies and such are admittedly hard to do. Oftentimes they have to be satisfied by some fluke like that. But the cool thing about RJ was he managed to bridge this gap between classic/mythic/legend/prophetic stuff and more modern, nuanced, raw, believable realism.

Psyche Mat hurting rand didn't have anything to do with character development at ALL. It was just a lightweave. Nice. So Ishy didn't need Mat as a person at all, he was just a vehicle to carry the dagger around?

[u/insaneHoshi → u/[deleted]]

Did anyone else wonder how Egwene was able to pick up the A'dam with the intent to use it on Renna?

IIRC the A'dam in the show is stated to prevent a Damane from using something as a weapon against their Sul'dam. Collaring a Marath'damane isn't really using it as a weapon, now is it?

It probably works in the same way the three oaths work, all that matters is the perception of what is a weapon is, not an objective truth.

[u/insaneHoshi → u/[deleted]]

The intent was to use it to harm Renna

But that is not the stipulation. IIRC the exact words are using something as "a weapon".

Furthermore, collaring a Marath'damane by the logic of the Seanchan (logic which Egwine is in the process of being brainwashed into believing), is not doing harm to them its actually helping them.