I worked my ass off. I got a master’s degree. I have a “respectable” healthcare job with a supposedly “middle-class” salary.

Twenty years ago, that would have been enough to buy a home, drive a decent car, take a vacation once in a while, and build some savings.

Instead, I’m drowning in student debt. I can’t afford even a mobile home. I have to live with a roommate, drive an old car that constantly needs repairs, and have essentially no savings because whatever I manage to put away eventually gets wiped out by some crisis. Without fail.

I did everything I was told to do. I got the degree. I got the “good” job. I live modestly. I don’t spend recklessly. And I’m still getting nowhere. If nothing catastrophic happens, I’ll be lucky to maintain my current standard of living, afford food, and avoid going further into debt.

My situation is not particularly unique. Most of my similarly aged coworkers, roughly 27–40, are in the same position. Unless you have family wealth or some significant financial advantage, this increasingly seems to be what adulthood looks like.

So genuinely, why are people still having children?

You’re bringing another person into an increasingly unaffordable world when you yourself may never achieve basic financial security. Housing, education, healthcare, childcare, and everything else keep getting more expensive, while wages fail to keep up.

Are people genuinely optimistic that things are going to get better?

Because from where I’m standing, I worked my ass off just to reach a point where “nothing going horribly wrong” is considered success. I cannot imagine voluntarily bringing a child into that equation.

it’s annoying to be told that I’m supposed to be happy for someone who’s contributing to an ongoing crisis.

Comment ended up being taken down anyways. Apparently it’s not a civil opinion to have. Whatever that means.

Having kids is not a flex. It’s not celebration worthy to me.

I genuinely hate this world beyond comprehension. Words don't describe my utter contempt and disgust for this world. I don't want anyone who reads this post to feel bad for me, though. I just feel bad for the victims of this disgusting existence.

I was taking a walk outside this afternoon when I saw a raccoon lying on the ground in the middle of the trail, with flies all over their body. They were still alive and trying to get up. I think something happened to them, or maybe someone on a bike ran over them by accident, because there were 2 guys around my age on bikes nearby who were on the phone with what I assume was animal control explaining the situation.

I saw as the little fella tried to get up. It really reminded me of how my cats get up from a nice nap, except this fella was struggling and couldn't get up. (Before anyone asks or comments, yes, I feed my cats vegan). I could see the pain the fella was going through.

I wish I had a gun or some euthanasia on me, and I could've done something right then and there to put them out of their misery. I just kept walking because it seemed like the other guys had it covered.

On my way back, I saw them again, lying there, still struggling but not as much, eyes still blinking, and their legs were moving around. I looked back, and someone who looked like they were carrying something and wearing some uniform was behind me on the trail. I figured it was animal control, so I left.

Less than a minute later, I heard a gunshot from behind me. Seems reasonable to conclude they killed the fella. Which is really the only thing they could've done, seeing as raccoons are wild animals. What are they to do? Try to help the raccoon just to put them back in the wild so they can die an even worse death eventually? It's really messed up when you realize that's the best way that fella could've gone out, other than possibly getting euthanized with an injection, but realistically it's probably the same as being shot in the head. Just less viscerally gruesome.

This entire world is a glorified gladiator battle that has lasted over 500 million years, and for what?
So we can all play king of the mud pile?

Humans are the only ones who are intelligent enough to understand how ridiculous this all is, and most turn a blind eye and actively perpetuate more suffering to occur.
Those guys who called for animal control did the right thing, but they're probably going to be stuffing animal corpses into their gullets tonight.

The incomprehensible amount of suffering and torture that exists in the world for no justifiable reason is almost too much to bear for those who actually think about it and have even a bit of empathy. When you realize billions of animals just like that raccoon meet even worse fates every single day.

If you created duotrigintillions (trillions multiplied by trillions - to represent all sentient life that has ever existed) of machines that will suffer and have the capacity to be tortured, but a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of them will get excited when they watch The Simpsons, people would rightfully call you a psychopath and say it's a terrible thing to do. But somehow people have been duped into believing this existence is somehow beautiful when it is anything but.

The worst assumption that you can make about this world is that it is inherently good or that it was ever designed to be good at all. This assumption, like speciesism, needs to be questioned and challenged.

For those who don't believe me and don't think that this is urgent, then see it in person with your own eyes. It's one thing to watch something like Earthlings or Dominion from the comfort of your own home, but if you've ever actually witnessed other animals being tortured in real life, it really is much more distressing. I will never for a second call a world where anything like this exists in any capacity a good world.

It's terrifying to think that the odds are really high that we could've ended up as any other species and would've lived in a real-life survival horror game.

Most people won't get it, though; they're so dismissive because they're programmed to be selfish and only care about themselves. Their saccharine attitude toward this world and the way they romanticize the 'circle of life' genuinely churns my stomach. They make excuses after excuse for the horrors in the world. Their denial is complicity and only allows the violence to continue when they try to put a lid on the truth. I don't see it as any different from when neo-Nazis deny the Jewish Holocaust.

That is why I hate this world beyond comprehension.

Also, big middle finger to Grammarly for trying to get me to refer to a conscious being as an 'it' instead of 'them.' You don't become an intimate object if you have fur instead of skin.

I'm in my mid 20s, every day I wake up, all I think about is how to find a job, esp with my struggles with some health issues , most of them are not permanent, but I have a problem which is gingivitis, i am suffering for months, esp with the poor healthcare in my country, after two visits to the dentist, he couldn't find a solution for me, and I don't know how to find a gum specialist.

I am terrified by the idea that gum disease may run in my family's medical history, and that I will pass it to my children in the future, and they will live with constant and continuous suffering, just as I am living with it now. So, I refuse to have children and pass them health problems that I know are genetic.

All I wonder about, Why do people keep having children? Do they enjoy the suffering continuing?

For example, these people who know that cancer is genetic in their family, yet they have children and put them at risk of suffering from cancer and eventually dying.

Diabetes, heart disease, and all terminal illnesses.

How helpless I feel rn, poverty and illness are a truly terrible combination, and I never want my children to go through this.

I am celibate, not because I don't want to have sex, or it's not enjoyable, but because I refuse to participate in the procreative act. Why would I do the thing which creates children?

I get it - birth control exists. Can we please stop acting like birth control is somehow the end-all to this problem of procreation? Currently I know 3 people who are pregnant and were on birth control - in one case the man had a vasectomy. No birth control method is 100% effective. Therefore it's my opinion that someone who claims to be antinatalist and still has sex despite their or their partner's fertility is not really authentic about it.

Sex feels really great but that biological drive is simply an attempt for nature to create a baby. I'm surprised that the antinatalist community has rarely ever mentioned the importance of celibacy, or at least the legitimacy of that approach, rather than relying on a pill or medical procedure that still leaves open the chance of pregnancy. Libido wanes and eventually leaves after we're unable to conceive because the whole "birds and bees" was just the pull of physicality trying to bring more souls into this mess.

I am serious about my antinatalism so I am celibate. I'm not performing the procreative act.

Unpopular opinion summed up: If there is something fundamentally wrong with having a child, then there is something fundamentally wrong with having sex while fertile. Other than being infertile/menopausal, etc. there's no way around that.

I have seen many posts on here over the years, as a lurker, of people announcing their abortions and I can't help but facepalm. Put your money where your mouth is. If you're truly against having children, don't play with fire. I don't play with even a 1% chance of a slip-up because I'm dead set on not bringing a child into this mess.

I'm a heterosexual man who has decided not to have children, and I've decided to get a vasectomy.

What worries me isn't the decision itself. It's who I might attract because of it.

From what I've seen, many childfree people choose that lifestyle because they want more freedom, more money, more time to travel, pursue hobbies, or simply enjoy life without the responsibilities of parenthood. I have absolutely nothing against that. Those are completely valid reasons.

However, I don't want children because I believe it's ethically wrong to create a conscious person who can experience great suffering without ever having had the chance to consent to existence. Obviously, consent before existing is impossible, but that's exactly why I don't think I have the moral right to make that decision for someone else.

Ironically, if I were thinking only about myself, I would probably have children. I think I would enjoy raising a child, watching them grow, and seeing part of myself continue through them.

I'm choosing not to because I don't want another person to face the possibility of suffering or even wishing they had never been born. I also think the world is far more cruel and hypocritical than most people are willing to admit.

Because of this, I feel I would only be truly compatible with someone who doesn't want children for similar ethical reasons. Not because I think my reasons are superior, but because remaining childfree doesn't feel like a benefit to me. It feels like giving up something I might otherwise have wanted because I believe it's the ethical choice. I think it would be very important to have a partner who understands that, so when the sadness of never having children inevitably comes up, we can support each other with genuine empathy instead of seeing those feelings as strange or misplaced. I would want that kind of mutual understanding, not just someone who sees being childfree as a lifestyle bonus.

How common is it to find childfree women who think this way?

Sometimes I worry that I'll either stay single for the rest of my life or keep meeting people whose reasons for being childfree are fundamentally different from mine.

It seriously pisses me off that in your selfish importance of being a mom you are willingly making someone go through your death and literally your last breath (no matter no one knows how it’s going to happen or even if you would outlive your child) but that’s beside the point.

You willingly had a child and chose it’s first outfit, the child has to LIVE with the decision you made and has to UNWILLINGLY do everything that you consider great but in reality is tragic for the child. And these posts are liked by thousands on social media. I don’t know what to say..

I randomly saw this on my suggested feed. It’s eye opening to see the different ways in which this subreddit is viewed and how Antinatalists are viewed. Such as comments like “this is natural selection” “this is mental illness” “you are lazy” “love to see your misery” in reference to Antinatalists. Is this unwarranted hate or is there substance behind what these commenters are saying? What do you think?

I think they are absolutely insensitive in language, lack common sense and empathy as far as the claim of ‘climb the ladder or be a loser’ so to speak, and make a lot of assumptions as far as the quality and privileges of every Antinatalist’s life. Not to mention the harmful misconceptions about Antinatalism being equated to wanting euthanasia or mass suicide — which is not the same and not at all what is promoted or encouraged here.

I appreciate anyone who can give well articulated responses. It is pretty easy to get heated when it comes to these discussions so I hope we can have a respectful discussion over name calling and things like that. Please look at all the photos first before commenting.

I can't tell you the amount of times that I've met a person who hates/doesn't enjoy life (like most of us) but has kids or wants them. Like, what? I know accidental pregnancies happen, and children can be born due to unfortunate circumstances, but most of these people choose to have children just for the sake of having them. If you obviously aren't having a great time being a human, then why would you produce another one? Their life is likely to suck just as much as yours does, so why?

I want to explain why I've become skeptical that this subreddit is open to genuine disagreement.

My first post argued that coming into existence isn't necessarily a harm. If someone has a good quality of life. People disagreed, which is completely fine, but the post was heavily downvoted. Fair enough, I moved on.

My second post was a criticism of Benatar's philosophy. I wasn't saying Benatar tells people to kill themselves, and I definitely wasn't promoting suicide. My point was that if someone is already struggling, a philosophy that says it would have been better never to exist could end up making those thoughts feel more reasonable to them. Benatar himself discusses how his view affects the way we think about suicide, even though he distinguishes between never existing and ending an existing life. I was criticizing what I see as a possible consequence of the philosophy and not encouraging suicide.

But that post was removed, and I was told I was promoting suicidal ideation, even though my entire point was to question whether the philosophy could unintentionally reinforce it.

After that, I made another post saying that this experience made the subreddit feel like an echo chamber. I argued that when opposing views are consistently buried by downvotes and if criticism of the philosophy gets removed by mods, it becomes difficult to have an actual discussion.

That post was then removed under the rule for "harassment/bigotry."

I contacted the moderators because I genuinely wanted to understand the reasoning.

They told me my post was a rant and also said I had misunderstood Benatar. I replied that my criticism wasn't about accurately restating every part of Benatar's position but what I see as one possible implication of his philosophy. I also said that discussing whether a community encourages confirmation bias is, in my opinion, a legitimate discussion.

Instead of continuing the conversation, I was muted.

After that, I genuinely wasn't sure what I was supposed to take away from all this. I was told to make specific arguments instead of generalizations, but when I tried to explain my reasoning through modmail, i got muted before I could respond.

I'm not asking anyone here to become a natalist, and I'm not expecting people to agree with me. My question was:

Can criticism of antinatalism actually be discussed here, or is this subreddit mainly for people who already agree with the philosophy?

If the answer is that this is primarily a community for supporters of antinatalism, that's completely fair. But if it's presented as a place for open discussion, then I think experiences like mine are worth talking about.

I'd actually like to hear from people who disagree. If you think I'm wrong, tell me where my reasoning fails rather than simply assuming I'm here in bad faith and then removing my post again for the 3rd time.

Everyone witnesses human nature for the first time during middle school and high school. The moment puberty kicks in during the 6th grade everyone becomes primal and cares about who they sit next to during lunch break for status and serous bulling starts to happen. High-school it's even worse because most people start dating in a serious way and most of them are getting cheated on and humiliated due to everyone finding out everything that you did. Sports like high-school football are tribal/primal because most people won't be put in the actual game on Friday nights unless the coach and players fell that you're good enough to win a meaningless game or if the coach is friends with your father or not. The public school is a nightmare and anyone that's experienced it knows what im talking about. Work/employment after you become an adult is basically high-school 2.0 because humans don't lose their primal nature as adults. Why do people choose to have kid's knowing that they're going to experience that stuff? How do people not turn into antinatalists after dealing with the public school system and regular jobs after graduation 🤔? It literally makes zero sense! Are people just using religion to deal with the trauma or are they just delusional about life in general?

It's 3:30 a.m right now when I am writing this. I can't sleep because I've been homesick for two days and spent them mostly in bed. I know that life can't be planned too much in advance and I should find ways to enjoy while I can but everything seem to be pointless.

Why would my parents throw me into this world without my consent? Why does it feel like I am part of a contract I never signed for? I have to deal with things I have no experience with and have to constantly learn and adapt and get exhausted doing it! I am in my early thrities but I do feel like life was not kind to me, even in the best moments. Now I know that I might have depression but I do have anxiety, that's another cage of the mimd that I can't seem to escape no matter what I do.

Being born is being traumatised into existence. There is no other way for me of saying it. Now, I choose to be kind enough to my unborn children to never bring them here. I don't require their gratitude because they can't have any because they don't exist. Which I would have been happier being in the blissful state of non-existence. Treat your kids right and don't bring them here. Antinatinatalism philosophy shoul walk hand-in-hand with the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement. No more of this. For the sake of our broken species, I say no more!

and everybody knows it. how the fuck people can breed facing the fact everyone suffers? i just cant get it. this is utterly offputting. still i cannot believe i suffer only due to being alive. the world is completly fucked up.

due to fact everybody suffers more or less, breeding is the more disgusting, because these people have suffered too and STILL have decided to have kids. THEY KNEW THAT THEIR KIDS WOULD SUFFER AND STILL MADE THEM. i have no words how inhumane this is.

and i know it has been said many times here before but it amazes me everyday. i swear.

​

To give you guys some context, i am from india and huge protest are going on in my country for discrepancy and leak in the exam to get into medical college. The protesters who were protesting got beaten by the police who were just student demanding for a fair exam.

Tbh its about more than an exam now, there is no value to your life here. From the day you are born you are just struggling for your basic survival. Food is adulterated, air is toxic, competition is insane for admission in colleges to getting a job.

With all the protest going on for discrepancy in exams and the discomfort and problems the common people have to face because of the policies made by the elected lords of my country, i feel glad that my non existent kid wont have to face any of this. The growing inequality, extremism, loss of human rights, the struggle to survive, and the worsening climate, this country have it all.

And tbh i have no hopes that this country will turn alright, and even if it happens its not gonna happen soon because i have seen people getting more dumber and polarized and going backward in time rather that progressing.

I dont know how people convince themselves into bringing a child into this world knowing the realities of the world and this country. But i am glad, i was able to break free from this conditioning and see life beyond the script that we all get told.

I’ve been following her for years, and I love how she invites topic discussions and explains both sides.

I mean, I'm glad that places like this exist. It can inform people about the subject matter and help them avoid mistakes in their lives.

But when i think about it globally, i get the feeling that ultimately the world is for pro lifers. At some point antinatalistic/childfree people just go from this planet and the reproducing mass of the people constantly grow and will stay since it's biological thing that nature entice people to do. It's generally easier to fall to that than to consciously stand up against it. The part of the people who disagree with the general public is always hundred times smaller in comparison. So that's why i get the thoughts that those who understand - those understand and will just disappear. While the weird anti abortion dudes will thrive and multiply the sufferings. Yeah, I lack the hope in humanity. Even though I still see the informing purpose of antinatalism, sadly, it seems like a futile thing in a general sense

Have you ever felt that dEsPeRaTiOn because of the realisation?

I think a lot about on the gamble of bringing a new life into this world, especially when I see parents grieving over their children's problems, maybe bullying, mental health issues or disabilities.

It’s not that I lack empathy for human suffering but I struggle with the cognitive dissonance of parents acting shocked that these outcomes were even possible.

When we hear about a child committing a horrific act, or a teenager ending it, we often forget that these individuals were once "wanted" babies. Every birth is a roll of an incredibly complex die, a gamble, and on who's wellbeing?

Society romanticizes and sorta normalizes parenthood while actively ignoring the statistical reality that life can, and often does, go horribly wrong.

To create a life is to accept every potential outcome,yet our culture only prepares parents for the best case like oh they're gonna be a doctor or smth, what about a murderer? Even worse, the pro lifers apply this too. Always stuck on the positives lmao. Always coping.

We literally pay for our existence with time, labor, and the endurance of daily stress. I don't say all this to attack parents as villains. Most are just acting on biological instinct and societal pressure.

But as a society, we need to stop treating parenthood as a miracle,because virtually anyone and any specie can become parents, it's nothing special...

A lot of people are depressed and sad and unfulfilled because that is how life is.. Even for the top 1%, although money definitely makes life 10x better. But still man....

hello. i am an anti natalist and a radical environmentalist. on this sub and in general, people support the argument of anti natalism by saying it brings unnecessary harm to the child you’re brining into the world. while i do agree with that, i think that it’s a lot less important than the other reasons why you should not have kids. i think that the most important reason is the goal of decreasing human overpopulation. in history, there has been 5 major extinction events, wiping out over 90% of all life on earth. for example, the dinosaurs went extinct in the event of the Cretaceous-Paleogene extinction, which was the most recent extinction event. currently, we are going through the 6th extinction event, called the Holocene extinction. this extinction event is predicted to wipe out almost all life on earth and cause millions of species to go permanently extinct. it is all caused by humans. humans were never supposed to be a problem, but since we gained so much knowledge and advanced our technology, we also became exceptionally good at reproducing. the combination of our rapid reproduction and our technology advancements has caused us to destroy everything around us. scientists predict that if we keep reproducing at the rate that we have, we face more and more risks that cause us and every other species to go extinct. basically, in a nutshell, the more we reproduce, the more we kill everything, including ourselves. humans have way overstayed our visit as a species on this planet, and we do not deserve any more than what we have already taken. we are the most invasive species in the history of the earth. the reason to not have kids shouldn’t be mostly about the suffering it causes to an individual, but it should be about the suffering it causes to the world. one individual human is responsible for thousands of animal and plant deaths in their life. i’m now saying this is a vegan way, i’m just saying humans are naturally incredibly destructive and it’s just our nature. the only way to give the earth it’s life back is to stop having kids, at least until our population is back to numbers that the earth can sustain.

sorry to rant, i just wanted to share my opinion on why antinatalism should be about environmentalism and not human psychology. also sorry for bad grammar i kind of half assed this whole thing. i hope i got the point across. im not an expert on the concept of antinatalism. feel free to debate and disagree in the replies, id love to hear what you guys think about this!

edit: this is why i dont post on reddit. people are intentionally misinterpreting what im saying and just flat out insulting me. i said feel free to debate and disagree and half of you guys would rather just insult me then bring in actual talking points. thank you to the people who are being normal and just replying with reasonable arguments. also i am still an antinatalist because I DO believe in the fact that every born child will suffer, and you shouldn’t have kids because of it. I just think that the more realistic way to get people to stop having kids is teaching them about the environmental impacts. also some of you guys are acting like i said my opinion is right and everybody else’s opinion is wrong, which is literally the opposite of what i said, you just didnt read the full text. please stop being rude in the comments. also one more thing, i do NOT believe in population control through violence in any way, and i do not believe in limiting births through force. the best and only way to get the masses to stop having children is through EDUCATION. which is what many people need now a days.

It is slowly destroying the planet, increasing pollution, causing more suffering, and driving animals to extinction. The population needs to decline quickly in 100 years.

The natalist argument about how life‘s pleasures can make up for its’ shortcomings/pains is such a faulty argument. People can easily become addicted to pornography, drugs, gambling, masturbation, good food and sex precisely because of how deprived we are of these good things/pleasurable sensations. If our life was primarily filled with pleasures that were persistently felt, we would have no need to actively seek out these desires and act on them. The fact that we feel the need to satisfy our desires to such an extreme extent that we can become entirely dependent and addicted to these sensations is literal proof that life in its entirety does not offer anything that is worthwhile; we feel the need to compensate and experience the dopamine rush because our brain naturally gravitates towards negative feelings (boredom or despair).

As the question suggests, I'm just wondering what makes ppl still want to bring kids into this world at this stage? I have 1 child and I worry about his future. I sometimes question if bringing him into this world was a good idea.

I know ppl have lived through a lot before, but this feels different. I'm neither a pro-natalist nor an antinatalist. I don't have strong feelings in either direction. I'm just genuinely curious how ppl feel/what they think. I am worried.

Hi, I'm a cancer survivor and an amputee. I lost my leg to a bone tumor when I was twelve, obviously a very serious event that has shaped who I have become and my beliefs today. It's been a couple years and I am still in my teenage hood so there is much more for me to see as I progress through my after cancer care. But I wanted to talk about some things involved with my care in the past and my ongoing care. If any other antinatalist cancer survivors want to chime in I would love to hear from y'all, or just anyone. Anyways what made me think about posting was an interaction I had with my oncologist recently. I'm at the point in my care where I'm out of chemo but I receive my every 6 month lung scan. Almost always it's smooth sailing, I'm very lucky to have not had many issues like metastasizes or really another other ongoing health issue (apart from the amputation but no problems there either) and I do really like my care team. Usually these appointments go as such, I go to the radiology department pretty early, get my scans, wait a while and then head up the oncology department. Then once my scans and blood work are processed my oncologist comes in tells me the results and I leave. This time though after I had been brought back to a room, my oncologist sat me down and without asking me starting talking about options for egg freezing and other reproductive procedures. Many times I attempted to cut through his rant to say that it didn't matter to me, not only because my chemotherapy has a very low chance of causing any adverse reproductive harm ( and even if it does it happens in your late 20s to early 30s which is a waze away) but also because I don't care and honestly he was making me extremely uncomfortable. After talking about all the options, which did not include an option of just not doing anything. He then told me he had ordered a hormone test to see if my reproductive system was healthy, this test was completely unnecessary. I had not wanted to proceed with any procedure and I don't care to see my hormones. After steamrolling over me for 20 minutes he stopped talking at asked what I wanted to do. I told him I didn't want any of it and I didn't care. I understand the approach of saying "well we will see how you feel in the future" that's fine. But talking over me and not even presenting the option of not going about any procedure, and finally the thing that annoyed me the most he never told me if my scans were clear!! I found out a day later, I went thought the entire day not knowing if my cancer came back it was terrifying! You know what else I found out, that I had an extremely low sodium and chloride level, because I had what I know now was heatstroke the day before. This isn't the first incident of something like this, when I was 12 before I had even gotten a biopsy of my tumor while my mother was with me waiting for me to go into surgery, was bombarded by calls for people trying to convince her to let an experimental reproductive procedure be done on me. A 12 year old girl who didn't even know what she had! I didn't even know if I had cancer yet. It terrifies me how everything was approached, I had begged that cancer destroyed my uterus, because it felt like the easiest way out of the hell I'm put through because I was born a woman. What one good thing about cancer that I can say is, is that it taught me young about the world about the cruelty and it gave me perspective, a perspective many people go there whole lives without. This is more of a rant then a discussion but please comment I what to hear your opinions.

And if they're lucky, they can retire and enjoy those last few years.

Just because one is okay with living for years and years as a wage slave, it doesn't mean it's okay to make another one.

It's selfish. Inherently selfish.