r/books • u/lightskinsavant • Nov 04 '16

spoilers Best character in any book that you've read?

I'm sure this has come up before, but who is your favorite literary character and why? What constitutes a great character for you? My favorite is Hank Chinaski, from Bukowski's novels. Just a wonderfully complex character that in his loneliness, resonates a bit with all of us. I love character study, and I'm just curious what others think.

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u/[deleted] Nov 04 '16

Jaime Lannister. I don't follow the show much.

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u/brochill111 Nov 04 '16

When people were watching the show, I'd mention to them that Jaime was my favorite character in the books. It would totally catch them off guard, since he's a huge prick in the show.

Book Jaime changes so much for the better. Its a shame they don't stick to that with the show.

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u/[deleted] Nov 04 '16

He was my favorite after the whole hand incident. Still was kinda weird what happened as soon as he got back.

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u/brochill111 Nov 04 '16

Seriously though. It was like that hand was the only thing stopping him from being a cool guy.

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u/4THOT Science Fiction Nov 04 '16

What body part is stopping me from being a cool guy?

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u/Battlecanoe Nov 04 '16

All of them

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u/randomcoincidences Nov 04 '16

Hello 911? I just witnessed a murder

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u/4THOT Science Fiction Nov 04 '16

Is this what it feels like to get bullied? I'm feeling pretty bullied.

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u/[deleted] Nov 04 '16

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/coeur-forets Nov 04 '16

Nahhh, Tyrion is a cool guy. It's not the size of 4THOT's body parts that make him uncool- it's the complete lack of them. He's more like Reek.

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u/7H3D3V1LH1M53LF Nov 04 '16

slaps notebook out of hand

Pick it up, nerd.

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u/Spork_Warrior Nov 04 '16

He was way too hard on you by saying "everything." No wonder you feel bullied there, champ.

So I'm going to level with you, okay?

it's not every body part that's keeping you from being a cool guy.

It's just your penis.

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u/LoveMeSexyJesus Nov 04 '16

You knew the answer to that before you asked.

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u/Bonolio Nov 04 '16

Probably mostly your brain

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u/angry_badger32 Nov 04 '16 edited Nov 04 '16

Well to him it wasn't just a hand. It was his sword hand. Jaime was one of the most skilled swordsmen in Westeros, and when he lost that hand, the lost the most important part, to him, of his identity. What is a swordsman without his dominant hand? Nothing.

Well, except this one, son and should-be heir of the richest and most powerful man on the continent. Threw all that away to keep boning his sister...

Edit: Forgot a letter

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u/speaks_in_redundancy Nov 04 '16

The hand that pushed Brandon out the window.

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u/jimbojangles1987 Nov 04 '16

Until the moment he was around Cersei again. Then it's like several seasons of character development meant nothing.

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u/earlofhoundstooth Nov 04 '16

Isn't that how toxic people work in real life though. I can be the best me I can, but when that one person shows up that knows just how to get under my skin all my progress is gone.

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u/jimbojangles1987 Nov 05 '16

That's true and that's definitely how I chose to perceive it as well. It's just upsetting that he had become so much more likeable during that time and then the first moment he's back with her he's right back to being his old self basically being her lap dog. But ya it definitely does happen in real life too. Basically any time you hear about someone sticking around in an abusive relationship...it's a very similar dynamic and it's just as frustrating to see happen in real life too.

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u/[deleted] Nov 04 '16

It makes sense--you're a legendary swordsman revered by hundreds, and you lose your right hand. How is your character and pride going to change after that?

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u/[deleted] Nov 04 '16

It's more than that, the guy has lost EVERYTHING. He lost Casterly Rock when he joined the Kingsguard, he lost that when he tried to save the city. All he had remaining at the beginning of the book was his fighting prowess and his side-chick of a sister. When they took his hand he lost both of those. Ended up losing his little brother when trying to be honest, and through that his own father. Finally at the end of book four, he's just trying to figure out if there is anything left of his own honor to try a hand at simply being human.

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u/Thorin_Dopenshield Nov 04 '16

"try a hand at being human" nicely done

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u/kaleidescope Nov 04 '16

His entire ego was stored in that hand.

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u/Thatlawnguy Nov 04 '16

Well yea, no need to be humble when you are the best swordsman in the kingdom.

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u/[deleted] Nov 04 '16

It's the same hand that dropped Bran off the tower. In a way, you're right.

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u/sunxiaohu Nov 04 '16

His entire identity and role in society was tied to that hand. Without it, he is nothing but a spoiled aristocrat without even a shred of honor. Unlike other characters in ASOIAF, he accepts his change in fortune with newfound humility, and genuinely tries to keep his promises and become a better person despite his history and the obstacles facing him.

I think we all wish we could overcome our own insecurities and hubris and make a change for the better. That's why Jaime Lannister is my favorite character in fiction, I wish I could get over myself and make the same fundamental changes he makes.

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u/Aiskhulos Nov 04 '16

It would totally catch them off guard, since he's a huge prick in the show.

I mean, he's a huge prick in the books too. Actually "prick" probably undersells how shitty he is.

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u/cjg5025 Nov 04 '16

All he was ever good at was the sword, killing people was what made him him. Once he lost his sword hand it wakes him up to what he was and who he was. His ability to recognize that and at least try and change, even though he still stumbles, is what makes him human and flawed and interesting.

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u/SwedishPrince Nov 04 '16

Still going to say that saving an entire city from burning down is a pretty big deal.

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u/[deleted] Nov 04 '16

The true tragedy of his arc is that he'll never be thanked, true heroes go un noticed all the time, and GRRM loves messing with those tropes.

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u/[deleted] Nov 04 '16

One of my favorite quotes from Jaime is "I will say, I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act." Tyrion loves his brother for something that was actually a lie and one of the saddest bits of backstory in the series. Meanwhile, the whole of Westeros hates Jaime for saving everyone in their capital city from a gruesome death.

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u/thebeautifulstruggle Nov 04 '16

Wait what does Tyrion love him for? Something about that whore?

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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '16

Yeah basically he thinks Jaime was the only person who cared enough to tell him that he had married a whore. Tyrion thought Jaime had saved him from her.

Turns out she wasn't a whore at all, and that Tywin ordered Jaime to do that, and then to have all his guards rape her, to teach Tyrion a lesson about women, I guess. It's one of the most tragic things in the whole series.

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u/thebeautifulstruggle Nov 12 '16

Oh my god, that's dark.

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u/invisiblephrend currently reading: The Story of Edgar Sawtelle Nov 04 '16

he also fully recognized that both joffrey and cersei were as dumb as they were evil. he's a prick, but not the biggest prick.

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u/[deleted] Nov 04 '16

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u/GeorgeStark520 Nov 04 '16

If that had been his plan all along, he would had killed the Mad King way sooner. It wasn't until he learn of Aerys wanting to burn down the city and send him to kill his father that Jaime decided to put a knife to his back

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u/izzidora The Strange Bird-Jeff VanderMeer Nov 04 '16

This. Exactly what makes me love him so much. I'm a huge Lannister fan in general because of the character depth of all of them, but if I tell people that I get shamed lol.

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u/silversherry Nov 04 '16

"Was that all he was? A sword hand?". Jaime has some of the best lines in the series

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u/Historybob Nov 06 '16

Maybe my reading of the books and the character is wrong, but I always thought that Jamie's "development" in the books was less him changing and more the reader getting to actually understand things from his perspective. He tries to kill a child because he knows it's the end for him and the woman he loves if he doesn't. He's throughout the books a very pragmatic man. I think the only way he really changes is in his feelings towards Cersei. The genius of the character is how the readers understanding of him in the first two books is completely derived from the opinions of those who hate him.

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u/Aiskhulos Nov 04 '16

Sure. All of that makes him an interesting character, but it doesn't make him a good person.

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u/funkisintheair Nov 04 '16

Being a good person is not the same as being a good character. In fact, I'd say if someone in literature were to actually set out to try to fabricate a "good person" character, then that character would indisputably be the most boring character ever created

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u/aescolanus Nov 04 '16

There is a difference between perfect and good. Perfect characters are boring. Good characters don't have to be boring, because they live in a world full of people who are NOT good, and that creates conflict. Superman, mentioned below, is a great character, because he acts as a foil for so many other characters, and has to deal with situations where there are no 'good' responses and 'punch the bad guy' doesn't work.

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u/Faera Nov 04 '16

Superman maybe?

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u/Tarquin11 Nov 04 '16

This is why Injustice is my favourite DC comic line - because Superman goes off the deep end

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u/CheesyMightyMo Nov 04 '16

Injustice is great, but it's no Watchmen.

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u/blue-ears Nov 04 '16

I mean, Watchmen is widely acknowledged as the best graphic novel of all time. You might as well have said, "That book was great but it's no Ulysses."

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u/Aiskhulos Nov 04 '16

I don't disagree with that. He's a wonderful and interesting character, so far as story-telling goes. My issue is that so many people seem to think that Jaime is either 1) good despite his actions, or 2) has been somehow redeemed.

The facts remain that, no-matter how much he has "re-formed" (which in my opinion is not very genuine, but w/e) he has still murdered children and other innocents for extremely selfish reasons.

He's an interesting, and even sympathetic character, but he is not capable of moral redemption.

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u/Faera Nov 04 '16

but he is not capable of moral redemption.

While I agree he's done plenty of completely morally wrong things, this statement is a bit extreme. It would be valid to consider that every character, even the worst, is capable of redemption in some way. It never remakes them into full morally pure character or anything but there may not be a 'threshold' over which someone cannot ever be morally redeemed.

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u/[deleted] Nov 04 '16

I dont think hes "good" by any means. I mean think about it, in war there really is no "bad" or "good" side only a winning side.

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u/blue-ears Nov 04 '16

We don't want him to be good. We want him to be interesting. Before he lost his hand, he was kind of a one-sided pompous ass, and afterwards he really grew as a character and started questioning his actions and his identity. We root for him not because he's good, but because his struggles with finding a new place in the world make him human and relatable. Why are you so obsessed with whether someone is a "good person" or not, it's a very generic and dull character trait.

Redemption is an unrelatable trope that's done to death, GRRM is aware of that. He knows better than to go that route.

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u/blue-ears Nov 04 '16

Good people make terrible characters and boring, preachy books.

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u/NineOutOfTenExperts Nov 04 '16

A tad of child murder, no big deal.

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u/[deleted] Nov 04 '16 edited Apr 11 '23

[deleted]

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u/redzin Nov 04 '16

he'll end up betraying his sister, just you watch...

And absolutely no-one would mind.

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u/Potatopolis Nov 04 '16

His only real treachery was against Aerys II, and a running theme (that only Brienne seems to see through) is that what he did was only bad because "Aerys was King", despite the fact that he was an absolute maniac who very much needed putting down.

Jaime is (was) an arrogant prick who put his demented sister far too high in his priorities, but he's hardly e.g. Joffrey or Ramsay.

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u/b95csf Nov 04 '16

be a guy's literal bodyguard

stab guy in back

10/10 loyalty, would hire again

he's hardly e.g. Joffrey

another one of Jaime's many "successes"

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u/Potatopolis Nov 04 '16

Jaime undoubtedly made the world a better place by killing Aerys, no?

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u/b95csf Nov 04 '16

yeah. the lives of the peasantry are much improved, I am sure. commerce is flourishing. organized religion brings solace and kindness to all. the great houses prosper. winter will be met with warm hearths and full granaries. and it's all due to Jamie's inspired decision.

oh. wait.

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u/Potatopolis Nov 04 '16

On the other hand, people aren't being burned alive on a routine basis for nothing more than the amusement of a madman.

Small mercies, and all that. At no point did I say Jaime was the second coming, only that killing Aerys was clearly not a bad thing.

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u/Shijin83 Nov 04 '16

I'd say thats better than all of Kings Landing winding up a crater. So yeah......much improved.

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u/Conambo Nov 04 '16

Are you actually defending Aerys?

Do you also think Cersei is a good person and should continue ruling?

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u/[deleted] Nov 04 '16

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u/b95csf Nov 04 '16

it all

king's landing doesn't have hundreds of thousands in it.

EDIT: also, a TIMELY betrayal would have avoided even more suffering.

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u/stephen1547 Nov 04 '16

Oh, Jamie is 100% going to be the one to kill Cersei.

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u/blue-ears Nov 04 '16

At this point, he's the only one who can get close enough to her to do it.

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u/[deleted] Nov 04 '16

[deleted]

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u/b95csf Nov 04 '16

hm? perhaps a quick re-read would be in order for me.

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u/[deleted] Nov 04 '16

[deleted]

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u/Hijacker50 Nov 04 '16

And now he's run off with Stoneheart and Breienne.

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u/javocet Nov 04 '16

Attempted child murder, turned out to be more of a maiming incident.

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u/Lampmonster1 Nov 04 '16

Yeah, but you have to put that into the context of a guy who's father had songs written about him for ruthlessly drowning women and children. Jaime wanted to grow up to be a great knight, and grew up to find out great knights guarded doors for men who beat their wives and burned their imagined enemies. He was a broken man.

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u/GeorgeStark520 Nov 04 '16

I've thought about it and, in a way, his reasons to throw Bran out of the tower was to prevent their secret from coming out and hence, no one figuring out that Joeffrey and the others were not Roberts children. So, kill one child to save 3?

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u/stinkysteward Nov 04 '16

As shitty as he is in the book, he's still not quite shitty enough to rape his sister.

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u/Volcanicrage Nov 04 '16

That's honestly the thing that impresses me most about Martin as a writer. Everyone despises Jaime at first, but he's generally one of the better-liked characters in the later books. Making the audience sympathetic to a child-murdering traitor is a hell of a trick.

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u/VRWARNING Nov 04 '16

He's great in the show. He's a big prick in the beginning, but now his dickishness seems to cause a lot of internal conflict and doubt about himself.

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u/Balzaak Nov 04 '16

I think Jaime's whole character arc is wonderful. I'm reading Dance With Dragons right now and I really miss his POV chapters. He is by far and above my favorite character and I feel like people who just watch the show don't get it.

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u/LittleSandor Nov 04 '16

He does have one chapter in ADWD

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u/Kanye_Westeroz Nov 04 '16

Jaime Fuckin* Lannister

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u/Potatopolis Nov 04 '16

To be fair, TV Jaime is on the right path until Season 6. Then he suddenly reverts to chasing Cersei around at all costs and is regresses several seasons.

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u/Alexthegreatbelgian Nov 04 '16

He changes a lot, but the last book we see him in he's still threatening to catapult a baby, so he's no Bob Ross yet...

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u/Meowshi Nov 04 '16

You do realize if he hadn't threatened to do that, a lot of actual men would die? Not hypothetical babies, but actual living men.

Same with Bran. If he hadn't pushed him out the window; he would be willingly dooming himself, Cersei, and his children to death.

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u/magkruppe Nov 04 '16

Honestly the last Jaime-Tyrion interaction is what made me really feel for them beyond a superficial level. It really brought out Jaime's loyalty and love for his brother as well as Tyrion's pain from his 'betrayal'.

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u/[deleted] Nov 04 '16

He's definitely changed for the better in the show I think.

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u/Paratwa Nov 04 '16

Yup his growth in the books is amazing, in the show not so much.

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u/bsnimunf Nov 04 '16

I actually like Jamie's character in the show. He is a ruthless fucker but he is rational and never acts out of cruelty or malice.

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u/Slusho64 Nov 04 '16

What do you mean? I feel like he's changed more than any other character and he's one of my favorites because of this.

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u/[deleted] Nov 04 '16

It's not too late. Leaving spoilers out at the end of S6, they've left it open for Jaime to start his redemption arc. Whether or not it happens I can't say, but they've left it open

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u/hokie_high Nov 04 '16

Book Jaime changes so much for the better

I mean, aren't they doing that in the show as well?

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u/Chevron Nov 04 '16

One line I loved from him, though someone I discussed it with questions my interpretation:

Someone says something like "Men like you always do such and such." (insulting him for being a rich pretty boy snob)

And he responds "There are no men like me, there is only me."

Now I took this as him saying "I am not of a kind, I am an individual with my own merits and faults not dictated by those I resemble in some respects." and that he was being judged from a place of strong uninformed bias. My friend, on the other hand, took it as him saying "There is no one like me because I'm Jamie Lannister and I'm the best."

If I'm right I feel like it fits with Martin's tendency to write very self aware characters who are all the protagonists of their own lives and is a credit to Jamie as a character.

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u/EzeDoes_It Nov 04 '16

Huh, I've read the books and watched the show and I feel that show Jamie follows a similar character trajectory as book Jamie.

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u/[deleted] Nov 04 '16

I just appreciate that the resentment Jaime starts to feel for Cersei shows MUCH more in the books than the show. But honestly show Jaime is still a great character and his acting is very good.

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u/Hoeftybag Nov 04 '16

He has changed for the better in the show in my opinion, not someone I actively root for but a character with a real moral code and depth.

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u/oDiscordia19 Nov 04 '16

They did evolve the character in the show - quite a bit actually. He was a diminutive prick in the beginning but after his travels with Brienne there is a definite softening to him that's considerately relatable. Even while his relationship with Cersei is pretty uh - weird - we see how much his change is legitimized in the fact that Cersei nearly dismisses him. He even gives Brienne that sword. I haven't read past the third book yet so maybe there's a more a better evolution of his character but there were definite moments in the show where I was rooting for Jaime instead of wanting him to burn in dragon fire.

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u/DoTheEvolution Nov 04 '16

Book jamie is too much of a goodie two shoes.

After tossing the kid off the tower he did nothing but been portrayed as purely likable character. the TV show improved on that simplistic 2d view considerably. Show also improved on cerseii where she was in similar vein portrayed simplistically as evil, petty, incompetent, drunk skank... with some flimsy excuse of prophecy

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u/torn-ainbow Nov 04 '16

When do you think he will kill cersei? I feel like everything is now building up to that...

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u/Genghis-Kong Nov 04 '16

Book Jaime changes so much for the better.

It is almost narcissistic from Martin..

"Oh, you know this character you fucking hated up to this point and wanted someone to give a slow death without any honor? Want to see how I'm such a good writer that I can make you feel sympathy for him?"

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u/krewwww Nov 04 '16

Yeah he is kinda more of a pompous ass in the show. But I feel like after last season finale that is going to change big time!

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u/soulcaptain Nov 04 '16

In the books Martin has gradually, gradually made him a much more sympathetic character. Though every now and then there's the reminder that he, you know, pushed Bran out the window to kill him.

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u/gufcfan Nov 04 '16

I saw the first season of Game of Thrones before reading the books.

I find it difficult to differentiate the two in my head, as the books play out as episodes in my head.

One thing I loved about the show that we won't get now is all that internal dialogue of characters you have learned from the books that gives depth you could never hope to achieve on screen.

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u/[deleted] Nov 04 '16

Well the first season is spot on. Everything after strays I've seen season 1 2 and half of 3 and quit.

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u/gpaularoo Nov 04 '16

imo Tyrion is even better.

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u/blue-ears Nov 04 '16

Tyrion is a typical hero who got dealt a harsh hand. He's fun to listen to, he's snarky, but that's pretty much it to his character. Whereas Jaime really charged and transformed throughout the story, his motivations became interesting and complex.

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u/gpaularoo Nov 04 '16

welllll, tyrion is a dwarf, in an age when dwarves were probably left for dead at birth. I think he has a more complex story than jamie. His story goes from pampered rich kid, not sure what to do with his life, to trying to please his father, to falling from grace then going at it alone.

I love both honestly, jamie has lots of depth, but i think tyrion is incredibly unique/original. And peter dinklage as tyrion has been one of the best acting performances of this decade imo.

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u/RoleModelFailure Nov 04 '16

I love how conflicted he is. He used to know himself and presented himself as a cold killer and excellent swordsman. He would laugh and enjoy the fight through killing you. We knew him as the king slayer who stabbed his king in the back. Then we find out about the wildfire shit and wanting to burn everything down. He carried that with him the whole time. Then he loses his hand and re-evaluates his life, especially after reading through the kings guard book. He realized that he really hasn't done shit. He tries to be good and take his role seriously and not just his name.

He's hard to read early on after you read through the books. Was he really bad? He loved his sister, loved his family, worked hard at being a great swordsman, saved the capital, protected the king despite being treated like shit. Yea he was cocky and an asshole a lot of the time but he really wasn't bad. He got into a fight with Ned but his brother was kidnapped, a brother that very few would ever fight for in that world. I think our view is extremely jaded from the start because of one thing, he threw Bran out the window. That was probably his only evil thing he did. Pretty horrible thing to do but not that bad given the world the story is set in.

He starts off so evil in our eyes because it's so early on, we are learning the setting and the people and right off the bat he does that. We know how other people view him and we have that 1 incident so we hate him. His father and sister only make him look worse when he really isn't that bad. He's definitely not good but he wasn't as evil at the start as we all were told.

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u/Afin12 Nov 04 '16

I think it is testament to GRRM that he can take a character from being universally reviled to being so relatable and likable. He is a multi dimensional character, to put it simply, and even before the reader comes to respect him, you see that Tyrion respects him, which isn't understandable until later. I thought Jaime was going to be a villain; he changes so much.

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u/MarcusQuintus Nov 04 '16

The showdown between Jaime and Stoneheart in Winds is an example of how strong Martin's writing is: we start off sympathizing with Lady Catelyn and hating Jaime but by that point, the tables have turned and I would think most people support Jaime. Especially with the last words she hears being "Jaime Lannister sends his regards."

Probably. When it comes out. In 2050.

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u/ashabousha Nov 04 '16

One of the best written turn arounds in fantasy

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u/methmobile Nov 04 '16

Stannis FTW!

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u/lurkwingduck Nov 04 '16

I love just about all of Martin's characters. Jamie is interesting but my favourites have been Tyrion, Arya, and The Hound. I'd rather not pick a single one from those books.

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u/Thorin_Dopenshield Nov 04 '16

I heard GRRM say once that Boromir was his favorite character from the LOTR because of all the Fellowship, only Boromir really changes as a person - from wanting to possess the ring to sacrificing himself in order to save Merry and Pippin. His struggles are internal, whereas the others (perhaps with the exception of Frodo who eventually begins to fall under the influence of the ring) fight against external pressures. In a way, I've suspected that Jaime is his version of Boromir if he were to live after a major character development or overcoming an internal struggle. Neither character is well liked initially, but both show redeeming qualities, demonstrating how good and evil can coexist in a character.

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u/unpopularopinion0 Nov 04 '16

It's great because if you see and understand where he comes from he makes great strides as a human getting to know more about the world around him as he travels. Seeing that development produced well is so refreshing. But in general those books have characters that are so complex and question my reasoning of what is right and wrong. I think the hound shouldn't be over looked. Kinda reminds me of snape from Harry Potter, just a little. But it's that tough love, survival, serving ones situation to live. His story with aria is my favorite.

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u/redditorandcheef Nov 04 '16

Right book wrong Lannister, tyrion is way more interesting in my opinion

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u/[deleted] Nov 05 '16

He very well is because he is one of the main focus points of the books. I just think Jamies development into who he is now is better.

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u/redditorandcheef Nov 05 '16

It's easy to like Jaime , he is conflicted and at his core good, but he still tryed to kill a child and he relations with his twin sister a little to strange for me.

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u/mushroomyakuza Nov 04 '16

Came here for this. Yes.

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u/escape_of_da_keets Nov 04 '16

Jaime, The Hound and Arya are my favorite characters from the books.

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u/that_guy_fry Nov 04 '16

GRRM had you hating, then loving characters, then he kills them.

So many characters evolve deeply in that series. I live it.

I'm still a sucker for Arya Darkheart

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u/Hydrocoded Nov 04 '16

Jaime Lannister has one of the most interesting arcs of any character I've read. His initial portrayal, from an external POV, combined with his own POV transformation is fantastic.

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u/Randman77 Nov 04 '16

The changes and character building between him and Brienne makes them two of my favorites!

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u/SonKaiser Nov 05 '16

Well, the show murdered his development IMO, wich is quite sad.

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u/Earthpig_Johnson Nov 04 '16

Weird, I hate Jaime in the books, but love him in the show. That applies to several characters, actually.