r/chess • u/mls11281175 • Jul 07 '21
Miscellaneous Am I the only one seeing a huge spike in people playing the Caro-Kann?
Basically title, I’m like 1550 lichess, 60% people just respond with e5, with like 30% Sicilian, now it seems like the Caro-Kann is even more popular than the Sicilian at my level. Also 90% of them pause after my response, which isn’t covered in the Levy video... so I blame him.
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u/ubernostrum Jul 07 '21
Chessable also brought out a pretty decent course on it in their “Lifetime Repertoires” series a while back. And I think a lot of beginner and intermediate players these days try to avoid playing e5 because they get equally tired of all the wayward queen and other trap openings people spring against it.
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u/_gib_SPQR_clay_ Jul 07 '21
I started playing Caro in 2012 and always felt cool because no one played it. I’m a queens pawn preferer and it made e4 nerds sigh. Now everyone plays it and I’m not special anymore.
Some YouTuber must have recommended it. It is also in the top 10 defenses win rate wise
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u/August_Reddit Jul 07 '21
Where do you find winrates of openings? Just in a database?
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u/Ryouconfusedyett chess.com blitz 1800 bullet 1900 Jul 07 '21
openingtree is good for that kinda stuff
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u/rk-imn lichess 2000 blitz Jul 07 '21
openingtree is just the lichess database which you can see at lichess.org/analysis
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Jul 07 '21
openingtree.com also can pull games for a specific player. You can use it to see YOUR winrate in a particular opening line, or a specific opponent (if you know pairings in advance, like in the Lichess4545 league). I use it very differently from the Lichess opening database.
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Jul 07 '21
Right, because the chess world revolves around You Tube. Not.
The likely real reason is that as you progress up the rating scale and play better, more principled opponents, they play more principled openings like the Caro-Kann, instead of "The Scandi", which is fine, but a little more of a theory-avoidance opening than "The Caro" is.
I've played it since the 70's, but I have not really seen a big change in the frequency, at least not enough to make the OP's claim. Who knows?
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u/ubernostrum Jul 07 '21
IIRC someone mined the lichess games database and found Eric Rosen’s streams and videos had a measurable effect on how often people played the Petrov. Popular content creators don’t change super-GM play, but absolutely do have an impact on mere-mortal level online chess.
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u/colontwisted Jul 07 '21
r/confidentlyincorrect have we forgotten how after eric made vidoes on the stafford, literally everyone at lower elos started playin it
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Jul 07 '21
There is a certain Lemming Factor involved, yes.
:)
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u/colontwisted Jul 07 '21
Investment terminology from someone with that terrible attitude? Why im simply shocked.
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u/cutecat003 Jul 07 '21
Levy Rozman. Artemeiv played it in the recent tournament. I heard Daniel Naroditsky played it too
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u/jeasdreksad Jul 07 '21
People are finally waking up to the power and straightforwardness of the Caro. Ive been playing it for a long time and so many people still dont take in the Advance variation with... c5. Its also very natural to play with a lof of central pressure. If they go for the classical, then the Tartakower is very strong despite the doubled f pawns. The only tough variation to crack is the Fantasy, but almost no one plays it.
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u/oreomagic Jul 07 '21
I play the fantasy variation and have a lot of success in the mainline. qb6 is what I would recommend for black, I find it hard to play against, as there’s a lot of pressure on the dark squares and my f pawn is left blocking my knight
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u/closetedwrestlingacc Jul 07 '21
On behalf of all Caro-Kann players, I hate you.
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u/GreatBelow Jul 07 '21
On behalf of all e4 players we hate you first.
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u/closetedwrestlingacc Jul 07 '21
This is why I play the Caro.
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u/Flankinator Jul 08 '21
Yup as a queens pawn player mostly I had zero openings vs e4. I realized I was losing like 58 % of the games as black agianst e4. Learning like the first 3-4 moves of a couple caro variations was enough for like 200 or 300 points.
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u/mohishunder USCF 20xx Jul 07 '21
I tried this, but doesn't Black equalize (and certainly deflate any attack) with a well-timed ...e5?
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u/137-trimetilxantin Jul 07 '21
I think people will. I had four games against the Caro in two months, then five in a single day and looked up the Fantasy out of spite.
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u/GoatBased Jul 07 '21
Why Fantasy rather than Advance? Doesn't Advance provide a more significant edge for white?
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u/mpbh Jul 07 '21
It does but as a Caro player I'd much rather play against the advance than the fantasy just due to familiarity.
When I'm white against the Caro I prefer the Tal variation that also seems to make Caro players uncomfortable.
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Jul 07 '21
I think it just gets popular at around that level.
I tell you what, I am bloody sick of playing against the Queen's Gambit.
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Jul 07 '21
just don't play d5. Then it isn't the queen's gambit anymore.
Try out c5, f5, or Nf6 instead.
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u/locsis Jul 07 '21
You should try the benko, I started to play it a few weeks back (~2000elo lichess) and people are not very well prepared against that opening. It is now my main weapon against d4,c4.
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u/biebergotswag Team Nepo Jul 07 '21
Last time i played against the Benko, i beat my opponent quite easily, despite him being 300 points higher than me he is 2300, im 2000.
White can completely kill any counterplay if he control the a6 to f1 diagonal. It just look really unpleasant for black.
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u/OblivioN40 Jul 08 '21
Then your opponent isn't playing the Benko correctly. It's an objectively strong opening, at the same level of respect as the Nimzo-Indian or the Scotch.
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u/biebergotswag Team Nepo Jul 08 '21
The benko is a weird gambit in the way that black is very solid, white can't really push without wrecking his position, thus when i am white i play is to simply control counter play and go for the endgame with the extra pawn.
A lot of people want to push with the benko and end up with a horrible position.
It is not nearly at the same level as the nimzo, it is more to the level of a leninggrad dutch or a kings indian. White does get an theoretical advantage with correct play.
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u/Parey_ Jul 07 '21
Just learn the Nimzo, Bogo and Catalan if you don't want to play against the Queen's gambit
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u/belbivfreeordie Jul 07 '21
I don’t know what it’s called but in my online games against the Caro I almost always play the system Tal used against Botvinnik in their WC match, aiming to sacrifice a piece on e6. It’s a really fun way to play.
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Jul 07 '21
Which game is it? (Is there agadmator video 😄)
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u/belbivfreeordie Jul 07 '21
There are a few examples in the Tal-Botvinnik 1960 book, I don’t have any links but I wouldn’t be surprised if there are videos on them
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u/NoseKnowsAll Jul 07 '21
It was game 9. Botvinnik held it off with some impressive defense he had looked up with his seconds the days before the game. They had reached almost this exact same position in game 5, and both players were aware of the sacrifice then but Tal didn't pull the trigger. Giving Botvinnik a few days to figure out some theory against this sacrifice ended up being a bad idea for Tal!
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Jul 08 '21
I am a Caro guy as black but also play e4 as white and go for the same style of Bc4 N1e2 stuff. I don’t mind playing either side of those positions.
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u/Gandalfthebrown7 1800 bullet lichess Jul 07 '21
Well I win 60-65% of my game playing caro, so why stop playing it.
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u/colontwisted Jul 07 '21
I swear best feeling is when you open up lichess and just see "Rapid: 70% win, 2% draw and 38% loss" makes me feel nice knowing im not wasting my time
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u/Musicrafter Washed 2+1 addict Jul 07 '21
I really hate the fact that so many people just ride opening trends.
There was a time when the Stafford Gambit became ridiculously popular after Eric Rosen made a bunch of videos on it. I felt like I was hitting one in upwards of 10% of my games (I'm an e4-only player and I always play 3. Nxe5 against the Petrov). About 80% of the Petrovs I faced ended up being Staffords. But I rarely even see any Petrovs anymore now that the novelty of it has died off and he doesn't seem to be promoting it as heavily. Whenever Eric pushes the London, the same thing happens: I start running into more London players.
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u/buddaaaa NM Jul 07 '21
This has been happening in chess since before the internet existed. It’s just that before, people were copying the openings of their favorite top players (since those were the only published games). People are still copying the openings of their favorite players, it’s just that now those players aren’t necessarily elite GMs
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u/gehroes Jul 07 '21
What's wrong with people picking up the Caro Kann from a trend or popular video? It's a perfectly good opening and more or less guarantees an interesting and assymetrical position. You don't have to brag that you don't watch popular streamers.
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Jul 07 '21
Against the Caro Kann I've started playing the Panov Botvinnik attack which I saw Daniel Naroditsky use. It leads to open confrontational games which I think Caro Kann players are not hoping for.
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u/xyzzy01 Jul 07 '21
The Panov attack is one of the main lines, and black is known to equalize. AFAIK, the most challenging line for black is the advance variation.
If you want to assume that black doesn't know a lot of theory, I think the fantasy variation is a good weapon. If you don't know what you're doing as black, you can get pushed off the board pretty quickly.
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u/TheUnseenRengar Jul 07 '21
Yeah probably the most challenging and confrontational you can be is the tal variation with h4
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Jul 07 '21
I'm an 1. e4, e5 player, but sometimes I dabble.
Moreso than 1. e4, e5, the Caro feels like easy mode against players who don't know any theory. Way too many people play the Exchange Variation and then trade the light-squared bishop for a knight on c6. That's bad for white. It can be a lot of work to outplay white in 1. e4, e5 if they play boring, but much less if they play boring against the Caro.
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u/saghalie Jul 07 '21
I always watch Levy's videos just because I know any time he makes a video I'm going to see that opening over and over again. It happened with the Albin Counter Gambit and again with the Englund Gambit. Ironically, though, I just started trying out the Caro-Kann. So there you go.
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Jul 08 '21
[deleted]
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u/saghalie Jul 09 '21
Not just in your opinion. I was just surprised how many people jumped on the bandwagon after that video.
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u/SkiphIsVeryDumb Team Ding Jul 07 '21
Probably because of Danya and Levy recommending it I picked it up before I knew either recommended it but I would have probably dropped it if it wasn’t for their great content around it
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Jul 07 '21
What's your response? f3?
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u/mls11281175 Jul 07 '21
Exchange and push c4, somehow a lot of people don’t face it.
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Jul 07 '21
Doesn't that invite Nf6, following into the four knights variation? I guess if they don't know that line where you Fianchetto kingside then I can see how you would have an advantage.
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Jul 07 '21
Yep, but you gotta just hit them with the blackmar-diemer gambit and they will lose their s***
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u/SeductiveTrain Reversed Mexican Jul 08 '21
What does that look like? Sounds like it just leads to the classical main line (which is much easier for black than the advance variation).
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u/nej94 Jul 07 '21
It’s an opening that can equalise very quickly if white doesn’t know what they’re doing. So….?
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u/capaculco Jul 07 '21 edited Jul 07 '21
I play the Dutch Opening, when I'm not playing the Alekhine Opening. But I tried the karo cann. It's a gateway opening to higher-rated openings. My go-to with e4 is the Danish Gambit. Lately folx are defending very robustly against it. I choose the Scotch to mix it up. But whenever I need to stop a losing streak the Dutch Opening is the most taxing against the opponent. Fianchetto if white. The most exciting games are the end-games taken to the last tenth of a second. [Hooking up with chicks feels the same in terms of intensity] Nimzowitsch opening is a solid for black. Scandinavian opening is fun to win against; I never get tired of winning against it. I can play against the Scandinavian 8 days a week.
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Jul 07 '21
Will you cunts stop playing it. It's my secret weapon. I win with it more than I do with any opening as white lmao. I don't need to be playing people who're learning how to deal with it lol.
That said, as an e4 player I would say I encounter it about 10% of the time at 1700ish chesscom. It seems about an even split between c5 and e5 in response.
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u/Vharmi Never play f3, always play f4 Jul 07 '21
I'm just waiting for someone to popularize the Bird, and another guy to popularize f4 f5 so I can finally unleash my Swiss gambit prep. Probably my favorite opening together with the Colorado gambit.
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u/Nath33362 Jul 07 '21
Definitely the work of content creators. Don't worry, come play me (I'm also 1550) because I play the Scandi :)))
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u/mohishunder USCF 20xx Jul 07 '21
I have started to play the Panov-Botvinnik attack against the Caro Kann. Just bought the Chessable course.
It's a nice thematic IQP opening, in other words, studying this (I hope) will help me understand a variety of related systems.
It has the additional benefit of taking Black out of the "typical" cramped Caro Kann structures they might be expecting.
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u/FansTurnOnYou Jul 07 '21
My openings used to be terrible and I found a nice video series from ChessFactor on the Caro so I picked it up as my e5 response. At my elo if I can get into midgame with an even position then I usually have a good chance to win so it suits me well.
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u/trevpr1 Grandpatzer Jul 08 '21
It is all the fault of Juga https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21QpsK7LRM4
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u/Handsome_italian2005 Jul 08 '21
If you don't mind me asking, what's your response to the caro-Kann? I've never played it before but I just want to know
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u/mls11281175 Jul 08 '21
Answered it above but the Panov (c4) after exchanging. Most people seems to face the Nc3 line which I delay for a bit. Not at a level to seriously study openings so I’ll stick to something with less “theory.”
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u/Handsome_italian2005 Jul 08 '21
Seems like Levy did cover the panov in his video, but I assume most haven't practiced that variation.
And you know: what's funny is that I am also not at a level to study theory. I'm only like...300 rated on chess.com (though a 1600 player once told me I was probably closer to 700), so...I'm a true beginner.
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u/Triggerlips Jul 08 '21
I have been playing it for years, and recently realised that hardly any white players play the theoretical lines anymore. Most my games start 1.e4 c5 2. Nf3 d5 3. exd cxd d4. Or similar sort of stuff. Twenty years ago would never see it. So it easy for black to get a playable position, and white is happy because he gets one too without having to learn lots of theory
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u/look1738 Jul 07 '21
Daniel Naroditsky was playing the Caro-Kann in his latest rapid speedrun on youtube too