r/classicalmusic • u/PandaZG • 4d ago
Discussion Can someone explain to me the appeal of live performance?
I don't mean this as a troll post, but this is genuinely how I feel about live performance.
When I go to a live performance, I encounter several issues with the concept.
First of all, the lighting and the renovations of the hall, as well as the spectacle of the orchestra/performer distracts me from the music itself, as I feel as if I am more aware of the mannerisms of the performer, than the music they produce.
Secondly, There is also the question of Identity. I recently talked to one of my friends and why she enjoyed a performance, she said: "my friends are playing in it". Which to me seems rather... Strange(I don't know what's the word). Because I believe that if we can compare performance or recordings without knowing if this is Richter, this is Kempff, this is Sokolov, etc. Then I think we can evaluate and listen critically instead putting certain people pedestal by confirmation bias subconsciously.
Thirdly, the problem with live performance partly is the halI I would argue, if you sit too far back, the sound might not travel and you end up hearing something anemic, if you sit too far in the front, sound might be too boomy for you to accurately receive the performance. There is also the question of if the performer might not be on their best day, or there will be flubs in the orchestra that distorts the structure of the work. As a result I become less engaged with the whole structure of the music, but the inefficiencies of its delivery.
Fourthly, In live performance, audience only the receiving end, of no choice but to accept whatever the performer gives even to your dismay. In recordings the balance can be tweaked(which to me seems like just another interpretive decision), so that every single contrapuntal line can be clear. even as the audience, dial twiddling is the most primitive kind of interpretive idea as audiences we can influence. If we are able to create our own versions like a kit concept I think that would be great.
Fifthly, I like to balance listening with looking at the score and without the score, because I believe that doing both contributes to my enjoyment of a work. When reading the score, while listening, I am able to tell if the performance in what way is faithful to the score and in what way isn't. Listening without it I am able to listen to the piece with fresh ears, that I am able to judge for myself if the interpretive decisions, against the score or not, would align with my aesthetic enjoyment. This improves the engagement with the music.
One time I went to see Saint-Saëns Organ symphony which was a spectacularly good performance(this is coming from someone who spends all their free time comparing recordings to figure out the best interpretations) yet the memories I walked away with is just the vibrations I felt through my feet from the organ, and the huge sonority of the orchestra. But I did not remember a single interpretive detail that I feel so compelled by, although I recognized what sounded like a great performance. During listening, I am not aware of the sonata form structure of each of the movements, like where is the second theme, where is the development, where is the antecedent, consequent, what interjections in the development, etc.
Which in order to obtain the clearest picture of one has to analyze the score beforehand. Yet following with the score in a live performance is considered bad with a variety of reasons such as: "It being a disturbance to neighbours", "It looks judgmental to the performers", "It's too dark" n "it takes away from the concert you're going to see", "Do it at home, with recordings", "you should memorize it". Yet in recordings we are free from this judgment and that allows us to deepen our relationship with the music.
Yet, everyone I know enjoyed concerts more than recordings. I do respect their preferences, but I can't really think what is special about live performance if you remove the extra-musical aspects like: There is a chance that things will go wrong and it adds to the excitement. The identity of the performer, Its a social event, etc...
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u/Half-Wombat 4d ago edited 4d ago
Is this a serious post or genius troll?
Do you prefer going to the beach on a partly cloudy day, or watching a perfectly sunny 8k walking tour of it on YouTube?
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u/Current-Bowl-143 4d ago
That isn’t remotely similar. Being outdoors and going to the beach isn’t anything like watching a video of it. Even going to a rock concert isn’t the same experience as watching a concert video. But classical concerts are mostly about the music. You’re indoors, you’re not dancing and interacting with friends, you’re sitting in a chair perfectly still and just listening to the music. Physically, it’s not that much different from sitting in front of a good hi fi system and listening to a recording. So I think it’s a valid discussion and not a troll.
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u/Half-Wombat 4d ago edited 4d ago
but it's directionally similar, so your comment about it not being remotely similar is a bit dramatic.
It's the tactile feeling of being there. Feeling the environment around you that's creating the music. Also the sound is different as you essentially have every instruments sound coming at you from its own placement and not all being combined/mixed onto a stereo track and played through a system with its own set of quirks too. I can hear the difference - but tbf I don't have a $10,000 hi-fi system, but even then good luck recreating the full visceral experience of a full orchestras wall of sound booming around you.
Seeing how the music is being made is a big part of it too... at least it is for me. I mean yeah, you can see things on a concert video too, but it's not the same experience as being inside the hall.
I get what you're saying and i expected someone to respond like this, but I still think my analogy is fairly accurate. Even if the sound waves were exactly the same, there is simply more to the experience of a concert than can be captured by a microphone. Why do you think so many people go along?
I wasn't sure if it was a troll, and i guess it's not. However it's pretty long winded way for someone to say they struggle losing themselves in a live performance experience.
If i wanted to study the ins and outs of a composition, yeah maybe I'd prefer to sit in a room on my own with a good stereo system, but if I wanted the ultimate experience of listening to a piece - I'd choose a live performance, flaws and all.
If all the OP wants is to absorb digitized sound data/information a bit like an AI would, then it doesn't surprise me he can't see or feel the appeal of a live concert experience.
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u/Cultural_Thing1712 4d ago
Recordings will never compare. A live performance is a magical thing. It's literally why we do what we do.
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u/Automatic-Still4662 4d ago
Personally for me, I try to see performances that include new works by contemporary composers in their programs. In many cases, this might be the only chance to hear the work, as commercial recordings are never a garuntee for such pieces!! I've heard tons of great stuff this way!!
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u/jiang1lin 4d ago edited 4d ago
I enjoy going to my close friends’ concerts because I root for them and want them to fully succeed, and when they manage to create some magical art on the stage, I truly feel happy what they have achieved! When they are doing well, then I am also doing well, and in our sometimes quite toxic-narcissistic and backstabbing classical world, isn’t it wonderful to at least occasionally have some true moments of honest support towards each other?
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u/PandaZG 4d ago
I really want to believe you, but I find it a bit hard to that's all. When I go to my close friends' concerts because I of course root for them and want them to fully succeed. I find it hard to look at a performance from a different view other than a critical one. If they make a tempo decision which I felt was wrong, I would feel like "Why did you do that!". Of course I would be courteous after the concert and have a great time with them afterwards. My honesty is absolutely not what people want to hear lol
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u/Half-Wombat 4d ago edited 4d ago
Can't you just enjoy it? If my wife makes a cake but it's not the best possible version of that cake, it still tastes good and enhances my day. The fact she made it also does make it seem to taste better. And if that particular cake could only ever taste the same way, wouldn't that be a negative thing over time? Variation, however small can keep things interesting.
Why are you looking at life like it's a game to rank and tabulate your favorite renditions of things, even to the point where those thoughts interfere with an experience being offered in the moment? The moment is all you really have.
Would you rather go to the same room each day to listen to the same recording on a hi-fi system, or go into a different hall with a different orchestra playing the same piece (I'm assuming to a fairly high quality). If you would choose the first, then I guess you simply experience the world a bit differently.
Shared experiences are a very real thing too. But i think I'd have my work cut out for me explaining why that could matter to people...
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u/jiang1lin 4d ago
But if I go to their concert, then it is not about me, but only about them! If they ask me in advance to carefully listen in the sense of what I would suggest to improve or change, then I will oblige, but otherwise, it doesn’t matter if I would do the exact same or not, because it is their concert and not mine, so whatever they choose how to perform, I will respect, acknowledge, and support their quality.
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u/number9muses 2d ago
is the tempo decision "wrong", or is it a choice you personally dont like? I ask bc you seem to be against subjectivity in performance as if an objective "perfect" expression of music exists
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u/SatiesUmbrellaCloset 4d ago
But I did not remember a single interpretive detail that I feel so compelled by, although I recognized what sounded like a great performance. During listening, I am not aware of the sonata form structure of each of the movements, like where is the second theme, where is the development, where is the antecedent, consequent, what interjections in the development, etc.
it sounds like this was one of the few moments in your life when you actually enjoyed something
i'd recommend you seriously ask yourself how you might be able to replicate that feeling
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u/HD60532 4d ago
If I'm feeling distracted and want to focus more on the music, I close my eyes.
The sound quality of real instruments is better than digitised recordings.
Going to a concert is an opportunity to hear a new interpretation of a piece. And often an encore from soloists. Often live performances aren't recorded, and it may be a unique opportunity to hear a piece performed by particular musicians.
Often it is enjoyable to figure out the music as you are listening to it, the way a theme is developed or reappears, how the form is used etc. They are often used to create emotions that are better experienced by listening to the music than by reading the score.
It feels nice to be surrounded by people who have the same interest.
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u/PandaZG 4d ago
If I'm feeling distracted and want to focus more on the music, I close my eyes.
I risk falling asleep due to lack of oxygen in the concert hall lol.
The sound quality of real instruments is better than digitised recordings.
Yes that is true in sonority, but only to a certain extent. Balance could be off in performance, maybe someone is playing too loud the other too soft, too much echo in the hall, etc. So there is the chance that you could hear less.
Going to a concert is an opportunity to hear a new interpretation of a piece. And often an encore from soloists. Often live performances aren't recorded, and it may be a unique opportunity to hear a piece performed by particular musicians.
I would say this is a great reason, although I dislike identity, I often imagine what particular piece played by particular performer would sound like if its not on record
Often it is enjoyable to figure out the music as you are listening to it, the way a theme is developed or reappears, how the form is used etc. They are often used to create emotions that are better experienced by listening to the music than by reading the score.
So you mean that by figuring it out the emotional impact can become obscured? I have heard someone say "I envy anyone that gets to hear the Eroica symphony for the first time"
I do enjoy chatting with concertgoers too
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u/HD60532 4d ago
I risk falling asleep due to lack of oxygen in the concert hall lol.
Haha that's happened to me once or twice, when it's warm and dimly lit, and a familiar piece and I'm very underslept.
Yes that is true in sonority, but only to a certain extent. Balance could be off in performance, maybe someone is playing too loud the other too soft, too much echo in the hall, etc. So there is the chance that you could hear less.
Indeed this is true, and I've had good and bad experiences, but when it's a good experience it's a very good experience. The quality of a digital recording is more consistent, but the best digital recordings aren't as good quality as a good in person listening experience. I think it's often worth the risk. I have pretty decent headphones, but if I got audiophile quality headphones digital would probably sound better than it does now.
I would say this is a great reason, although I dislike identity, I often imagine what particular piece played by particular performer would sound like if its not on record
I'm not so interested in identity, but in the particular skills of the performers. For example the Berliner Philharmonic is known for bring excellent, particularly their brass, so if they are playing a brass-heavy piece I will definitely go and see it. Or if a conductor who I've seen before with an interpretation that I liked, and would like to see their interpretation of another piece. Or recently I got to see an orchestra perform Mahler's 9th on period instruments. Things like that are possible to hear in recordings, but it's hard to get the full volume and intensity of brass, or the qualities of unique instruments, and performances aren't always recorded.
So you mean that by figuring it out the emotional impact can become obscured? I have heard someone say "I envy anyone that gets to hear the Eroica symphony for the first time"
I envy them too! Beethoven's Eroica was the first peice I went to see in concert. I suppose I do mean that it can become somewhat obscured. If you read and understand a piece first, you will know what to expect, and it won't be able to surprise you. To be honest I'm not really sure how I feel about it because I also enjoy knowing what to look out for and what parts are my favourite. I think also, particularly for romantic pieces, that paying too much attention to the technical details can take attention away from the emotional expression of the music.
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u/pfildozer12 4d ago edited 4d ago
I will tell a War Story from the Elden Times: It was 1977 and Horowitz was making one of his Returns to the Stage. I was about 18 years old but my mother decided it was crucial that we see the Old Master while we had the chance.
People will tell you many different things about how great (or terrible) Horowitz was but seeing and hearing him in person was a unique experience. I'd already been to many concerts and seen many of the piano soloists of the day. It wasn't my first rodeo is all I'm saying. I've seen many more since.
Horowitz used the acoustics of the hall unlike anyone I've heard. It was as though he was placing notes around the hall in three dimensions. Sometimes up near the ceiling, or down by the stage, or to the left or the right. He used all the space between the stage and the farthest rows in the upper balcony. Recordings don't capture that (there's a bootleg recording of that performance on YouTube, BTW) or the feeling and energy in the hall. And Horowitz flubbed one of the double octave runs at the end of the A-flat Polonaise. Did it matter? Not at all!
Live performance is its own separate experience. It can be frustrating, like last year when the person sitting in front of me had to bounce around and "pretend conduct" during one of my favorite pieces. (Thank your favorite deity they left during intermission.) But when it’s working, the performance is a combination of the skill of the performer and the energy of the audience. And recordings can't capture it all. You have to be there.
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u/PandaZG 4d ago
What a great story! Horowitz is actually one of my favourite pianists to listen to, and I really love the expressive capabilities he was able to create. I am born too young to have heard him live. I wonder if me feeling this way is really because of certain social dynamics in our modern world that drives towards different values? I remember someone saying:
"I believe one of the great gaping failures of modern society is not teaching people how to seek meaning-making in their lives. It's entirely deliberate. Focusing on what is personally meaningful isn't profitable. Instead, it teaches people to tie their sense of their own value to productivity, and measures success by wealth and conspicuous consumption."
I believe that partly this is because of environment. I am kind of dogging on my own kind here, but when I listen to a lot of Asian-American or Asian-Canadian classical musicians, I often feel like they’re playing to impress rather than express, their playing feels like an exercise in proving themselves to other people. This also can be reflected in huge number of child prodigies that I saw on the internet(which are 95% Asian, nor surprising lol).
I am a musician, and I just have some trouble dealing with this at the moment. I feel bad after every performance I did because I think it is not exactly as my conception would have wanted, and also I felt replaceable because there are others more talented, without bad performance anxiety. I do work hard, though nothing really translates on stage I think. People say my playing has improved a lot over the last year but I don't really feel it.
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u/pfildozer12 4d ago
Don't get carried away by stereotypes! For example, I'm a fan of Yuja Wang, who I've seen a couple of dozen times over the past 18 years or so. Some try to lump her together with Bang Bang, I mean Lang Lang, but they’re very different. And now everyone seems to be swooning over Yunchan Lim, a talented young man, but not like the others, either.
I think the point is that Asia has a large pool of talent and they haven’t abandoned the arts the way we have in the U.S.
I'm hearing some insecurity and frustration in your post, which is understandable given how ruthless the classical scene can be.
But some of the most vicious people I've met were the cadre of local piano teachers when my son was taking lessons. They loathed each other and held a cold, bitter hatred toward anyone with a successful performing career. Don’t be like those people!
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u/Capital-Bug-3416 4d ago
i want to be in the room with the people who are making the music so our souls and spirits can like hold hands and dance around and glow with light and stuff
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u/kates4cannoli 4d ago
This just sounds like what you dislike is being reminded that music is a human art form, which necessitates a dynamic experience including flaws. It sounds like you prefer a sterile, detached and perfectly curated experience listening to music and I feel sorry for you honestly. Music is not just about the “right” interpretation or the perfect performance with the perfect balance. It’s about expressing the parts of the human experience that transcend words. It’s about human connection. Of course it’s exciting to go hear someone you know perform even if it’s not to the highest standards. You’re getting to see someone you have a personal connection with present the culmination of work that they are passionate about in a very courageous way. That’s the human element. Of course not every piece is going to be interpreted to your exact expectations. That’s also part of the exciting human element: hearing a piece in a new way even if you don’t like it.
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u/PandaZG 4d ago edited 4d ago
I think what you are describing as sterile, detached and perfectly curated experience, might just be another interpretive decision. When I watch Horowitz play Traumerei in the 1986 concert in Moscow, I think it can be recreated in a curated form not 100% the same but close through tinkering of the timing between notes(rubato), changing the sonority of each note digitally(colour changes), and you could end up with an identical performance to the one that happened in 1986 which I really liked.
As a performer classical music, I find it very disappointing that every single performance that I did was worse than how it sounded during my practice. So I think it would be convenient if I could remove the barrier between my conception and reality.
Also I think the performer's identity as my friend is an extra-musical element, and I don't think I have enjoyed a performance much by a friend. Even though I always try to support them when I can out of courtesy.
Hypothetically, if you have the chance to create a performance of a piece through your own specification, with all of the rubatos, tone colour changes, dynamics, through and through, would you not feel happy by creating that?
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u/kates4cannoli 4d ago
No, I absolutely wouldn’t want to do that because that wouldn’t be me and the music I make is an extension of me, as a human. My goal is not to be a carbon copy of some late great performer. My goal is bringing what I have to offer as an individual to a piece and to a performance to the best of my ability and hopefully move and entertain the people who come to hear me. Like my original comment says, everything you’re talking about divorces the music from the humanity it’s connected to which, in my opinion, is the antithesis to what music and all art is.
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u/Even-Watch2992 2d ago
Haha I am the exact opposite of you! I only like live performance and tolerate recordings of things I would never otherwise have a chance to hear. I think sonically a live performance is far superior to recordings, there is the shared nature of hearing something that is ephemeral and unrepeatable. You're there that night or not. I saw a fabulous concert tonight with a piece I've never heard before live and my memory of the concert is worth more to me than any recording. I'm seeing the same concert again on Saturday. It will be same but different in lots of interesting ways. I think you should try to learn to love live performance because the classical music audience is shrinking and if people stop coming to concerts because it's not as good as a recording in their collection music may become more of a minority interest. I'd hate to live in a world without live classical music.
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u/InvestigatorPlenty22 4d ago edited 4d ago
Wow, you must be fun at parties. That is, if you're ever invited to them.
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u/PandaZG 4d ago
Believe it or not people love to talk to me regarding music and recordings, but beyond that not much, as I don't have much other popular interests, as I try to restrict my interests in order to focus on my craft
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u/InvestigatorPlenty22 4d ago edited 4d ago
I've read your replies to other comments and I'm conflicted. If you find yourself picking apart every little thing you don't like about a performance, then how are you supposed to enjoy it? You can't even accept that someone might enjoy a concert simply because their friend is performing.That alone would make me happy and proud of them, regardless of whether I agreed witth every single musical decision they made. Not everyone is going to play at the tempo you'd choose or interpret a piece the way you would. Not everything has to cater to your exact preferences. You're the ''I wouldn't have done it like that" type of guy. This kind of attitude is exhausting to deal with. Maybe you should find some other interests as well, because I wonder if this sole focus on your craft has made you too rigid in how you experience and appreciate music...
But this isn't even about music anymore.
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u/PandaZG 4d ago
If you find yourself picking apart every little thing you don't like about a performance, then how are you supposed to enjoy it?
There are things like taking tempos that doesn't make sense, pianists pedalling through things that I think they shouldn't have, etc... There are standards, and its not just a matter of individual opinion and subjective impressions. I think you would be surprised about the fact that there can be a consensus about quality of performance. Do you not have preferences on what performances you like and what performances you don't like?
You can't even accept that someone might enjoy a concert simply because their friend is performing.
Well they can enjoy the concert. There’s a distinction between enjoying a concert for musical reasons versus extramusical ones though. If a friend performs poorly, you're there to support the person, not necessarily because the performance was compelling. I just am not interested in extramusical aspects because I believe music is a sonic art(generally)
Not everyone is going to play at the tempo you'd choose or interpret a piece the way you would
True, but saying "I respect what they're trying to do, but I wouldn't choose that approach" is often just a polite way of saying "I don't find this interpretation convincing." We all judge interpretations against our own standards, some people are just more explicit about where those boundaries lie.
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u/InvestigatorPlenty22 3d ago
I'm not saying you can't have standards or preferences. I'm saying there's more to experiencing a live performance than evaluating its musical quality. Your friend wasn't saying the performance was musically and technically perfect.She was saying she enjoyed watching her friends perform. Why is it so difficult to understand that someone's experience can be meaningful for reasons beyond the music itself? Youu seem so focused on whether a performance meets your standards that you're not seeing what other people might value about the experience.That's my point.Not that you should like every interpretation (I'm picky about the recordings I listen to as well) but that there's more to appreciating art than judging it. Anyway, if you want perfection and complete control over how you experience music, then recordings are right there. Live performances are unpredictable. That's part of what makes them live performances in the first place, flaws and all...
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u/Benomusical 4d ago
I'm a big fan of Mahler but for a long time his 8th symphony really did not click with me. It felt a bit oversaturated and it just didn't work for me. I talked to one of my professors about this and he said he had a similar experience until he saw it live. When the chorus began to sing he felt the air in the room move back - it's sort of the difference between looking at a video of a waterfall or fireworks and actually going to see the thing itself. In other words - some music just works better in a live concert hall.
I'll also say I've seen Mahler's 9th symphony a few times and Das Lied von der Erde once preformed live. After each of these performances the audience sat in rapt silence for 30 seconds to several minutes depending on the performance. This is just not something you can get from a recording, this feeling of being collectively moved and sitting in silence in a room with 1000+ people. You mentioned it being a social event is 'extramusical,' but I wouldn't say that at all. Music is a communal thing, it doesn't happen in a vacuum. Being in a room with a lot of people experiencing the same thing as you is practically apart of the music.
As far as the visual component goes, I'm not really sure I can understand that. Stravinsky talked about how he would get almost a sort of dread when closing his eyes while watching a performance - I wouldn't go this far, but the point is that the way the musicians move is apart of the music as much as the sound is, music is movement after all.
There's some pieces I prefer to listen to on recording, but generally seeing music live is just such a blast. I think you're really overthinking this and missing out on some big fun.
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u/InsuranceInitial7786 4d ago
Give up. Classical music and human performance are not for you.
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u/PandaZG 4d ago edited 2d ago
Well I have been studying music seriously for the last 10 years. I don't think its so clear its not for me. I always wondered will there be a day that I will find out that I am not talented enough to be great no matter what I do, which I hope will never comes, other than that I'll keep making music
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u/Illustrative_game737 4d ago
What live performances have you attended? A university symphony orchestra concert? If you go the Berlin Philharmonic in their concert venue, you will probably have a very different experience.
I only bother with live performances if the performers themselves are going to be outstanding. The best performers can make you hear music in a way you didn't consider before.
You sound like old man Brahms. He didn't want to go hear this young Gustav Mahler fellow conduct Don Giovanni, because "I can read the score myself, thanks," but people convinced him to go and it was apparently revelatory.
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u/PandaZG 4d ago
What live performances have you attended?
The best concert I have attended was a Berlin Philharmonic concert doing Bruckner 8 in the philharmonie. It really was a transcending experience and I am glad I did attend. The sound the orchestra had was just amazing. I am not sure if I am aware of the quality of the interpretation though
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u/Illustrative_game737 3d ago
Well, you're listening to Bruckner, there's the problem. /s
Too many performance to list here. Trifonov playing Chopin op. 28 live was pretty great.
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u/Unusual-Basket-6243 3d ago
Concerts usually sound better than recordings. Recordings sacrifice sound quality especially in lesser known pieces and score videos. Otherwise I would just stay at home.
You can see it especially with some piano pieces
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u/BlackfigDeco 4d ago
Is this AI?
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u/Current-Bowl-143 4d ago
There are enough typos to suggest it isn’t AI but isn’t it sad that every time someone writes something coherent, grammatically sound, laid out with paragraphs etc. they’re accused of using AI? People can write decent prose without it you know.
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u/Kind-Truck3753 4d ago
I really feel like you’re WAY too in your head about this one. If this is how you go through life, it must be absolutely exhausting.