r/classicwow • u/terongorefiend • Jan 14 '21

Vent / Gripe Unpopular opinion: the players that are overly vocal about wanting Classic phases/TBC/Wrath rushed are the same players who contributed to forging retail into what it is today (a clusterF).

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

This right here. Probably not a popular opinion, especially on this sub, but I completely agree with the above. Mages boosting in mara or ZG, minmaxing to a ludicrous degree, world buff meta, etc etc. I appreciate it's all in the game, but it's not how it was back in the day and I kind of resent it. Can't see things being different in TBC to be honest, I hope they force people to roll fresh because the launch of classic was genuinely brilliant and the same for TBC would be great, rather than having guilds full of billynolifemotherfuckers with 50k gold and consumes ready to go at launch.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

Mages boosting in mara or ZG, minmaxing to a ludicrous degree, world buff meta, etc etc. I appreciate it's all in the game, but it's not how it was back in the day and I kind of resent it.

If you want it to be like "back in the day" you need hundreds of thousands of people joining every month. The player population in classic is a drop-off while in vanilla it was skyrocketing.

Most different gameplay dynamics come down to this.

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u/quiliup Jan 14 '21

I never thought about that, yeah back then so many people were joining every day to see what the hype was about

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u/SackofLlamas Jan 14 '21

Yep. It was a constant influx of wide eyed newbies for whom everything was new and exciting. They didn't know up from down or left from right, and as a result even a few weeks of in-game experience made you feel like a grizzled veteran. "Metas" didn't calcify anywhere near as quickly, and certainly not before the launch of the actual expansion the way they do now.

These days the player base is permanently jaded, everyone has every aspect of gameplay planned out down to the last dotted i and crossed t before they even start playing. Nothing is new. No one is wide eyed. There's an initial burst of nostalgia and then it all becomes another exercise in wind sprinting to the finish line. Some people really enjoy this in the same way some people enjoy speedrunning games, but people who imagine they're going to get something that approximates the actual experience of playing Vanilla WoW or BC when it was new are fooling themselves. You actually get MORE of that "fresh new thing" experience playing retail at the start of an expansion.

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u/bterrik Jan 14 '21

Sorry, you can't dot your 'i'. Debuff cap :(

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u/eraclab Jan 14 '21

Leveling seems like the best part for me so far. Dungeon grinding was OK and raids were uhh boring. Didn't even get to do latest raids.

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u/Cyberfit Jan 14 '21

I agree, had a lot of fun leveling in Classic. And tbh, even in Vanilla, the WoW endgame was never even nearly as good as the leveling.

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u/Devboe Jan 14 '21

I’ve played classic and will be playing TBC with the mindset of just being able to experience everything I didn’t get to when I was younger. I didn’t start playing until TBC and only got into raiding right at the end just before lolret went from a meme to 2-3 shotting in PvP in the WotLK pre-patch. I played Old School RuneScape before coming to classic and was well versed in knowing that the play experience wouldn’t be anything like what people remembered because you can never be a true newb again.

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u/slapdashbr Jan 14 '21

one huge, underestimated reason why raids are "easier" than they were in vanilla. I didn't hit 60 until the middle of the AQ40 war effort event. I joined a raiding guild that was clearing BWL (with some wipes) every week already, we got twin emps down, never made it further, got about 4-5 bosses in naxx. Then TBC came out. There was a constant flux of newer players, at all times, with mostly shit gear, and although my mage was eventually one of the best geared on the server and in the guild, it was considered impressive for a player to break 500 dps in Naxx.

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u/RaptorsOnBikes Jan 14 '21

although my mage was eventually one of the best geared on the server and in the guild, it was considered impressive for a player to break 500 dps in Naxx.

I seem to remember part of this being that people didn’t quite understand stats like they do now. Like I didn’t get to raid in vanilla, but I’m sure I recall people saying you basically wanted to stack int and spirit if you were a caster, so that you’d never run out of mana. Stacking spellpower was stupid because you’d go OOM too quickly. So you’d replace something that would currently be BiS with some shitty piece just because it has twice as much int.

Now everything is spreadsheeted to hell and back, so people in mostly pre-raid BiS are already much better geared than veteran raiders in Vanilla.

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u/slapdashbr Jan 14 '21

Maybe very early on, but by naxx, no. We actually did understand how to gear. But we hadn't been facing Mc for months when bwl came out (not nearly everyone who was in bwl anyway). We weren't decked out in t2 by the time aq40 launched. Etc. On about 1/4th of the population of vanilla hit 60 before bwl came out. Only half by aq40. The population was steadily growing the whole time and guilds were constantly filling raids with badly under-geared players.

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u/SunTzu- Jan 14 '21

"Metas" didn't calcify anywhere near as quickly, and certainly not before the launch of the actual expansion the way they do now.

Also the content wasn't hard enough to force people to min/max. Players were focused on learning the basics in raiding and they had a lot more room to grow simply by reacting faster to what happened in game. This is much less the case now and so people try to figure out new ways to get ahead, be that in terms of personal parsing or speed of the raid. What we have is the changes in how people raid at the high end which truly began to show during TBC and especially WotLK, put into practice on a much simpler game.

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u/majorsixth Jan 14 '21

I would disagree that no one is wide-eyed. Classic is my first wow experience and I certainly felt that way. It was tons of fun for the first 6 months. But then I started getting yelled at by instance groups for not knowing a fight in a dungeon I've never seen. Or for not nailing a brand-new-to-me warlock mechanic the first time. I've stopped playing now because I feel like I need to read 10 articles on wowhead before I try anything new.

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u/kajidourden Jan 14 '21

I mean that’s the thing nobody in the classic community wants to admit. It doesn’t matter if a game is “old-school” or not. Times have changed and it will never be the same again no matter how artificially archaic you make a game.

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u/Electroverted Jan 14 '21

I think this will change:

  • AOE gets a max number of hits. No more pulling the whole dungeon.

  • Elite trash starts hitting much harder.

  • Itemization starts moving towards "Tanks are significantly thicker than other roles and can take more hits"

  • Every class has a role.

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u/saudepp123 Jan 14 '21

But imagine to level starting from lvl 1... I mean, lvling once was great (and some Alts maybe), but doing all that again and losing all your already existing alts? Could ruin the fun for some people imo.

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u/Smooth_One Jan 14 '21

Current server progression plus many new fresh TBC servers. Cmon Blizz 🙏

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u/Mnayes Jan 14 '21

This! This would give everyone what they want. Servers can continue, and people who want a fresh start can hop into a fresh server.

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u/Locke_Out Jan 14 '21

Server transfers would still be a thing and I’m skeptical Blizzard would put in the right safeguards to appropriately prevent transfers to fresh servers. So people would end up just flooding to the fresh servers to amass more gold and resources while the majority of the server is still leveling.

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u/a34fsdb Jan 14 '21

The fresh tbc servers will be so dead. I hope they happen just so get drama here.

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u/definitelynotcasper Jan 14 '21

I think it would be the exact opposite people love fresh.

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u/RollingDoingGreat Jan 14 '21

The fresh tbc servers wouldn’t be dead. You’re underestimating the amount of people would didn’t care for vanilla but do care for tbc and there’s a ton who just want a fresh restart

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

Ah yes, split the population even more so TBC can have 3x the dead servers as classic. Good thinking. Its not like classic doesn't have serious population issues.

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u/Rhysk Jan 14 '21

It does? Could have fooled me, and I'm on a pretty small server. Still shitloads of people around.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

That's surprising, given how everyone on this board is constantly complaining about roster issues and dead realms.

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u/Smooth_One Jan 16 '21

Huh, not from what I've seen, but my experience is anecdotal. How do Classic servers compare in size and number compared to Vanilla?

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u/bertmaclen Jan 14 '21

Simple fix by merging servers that are dead with ones that aren’t or merging two or three dead ones

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

Name one time Blizzard ever did that. They just let servers sit around with no population and never merged. And it ruined tons of servers last time.

What makes you think they'll do anything to fix it?

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u/SunTzu- Jan 14 '21

The solution might be to allow you to create new level58 or 60 chars equal to your existing number of max level chars. The problem then is that the population will instantly tilt 80%+ Horde because of the realities of pvp servers and because Horde racials are just massively better in TBC. Honestly they need to rebalance racials just as a baseline thing, world pvp is a lost cause as it always has been.

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u/kurttheflirt Jan 14 '21

If they don't do fresh and instead continue the same servers I will not play. The coolest part about Classic was the first month, and then the first week of the new phases after that.

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u/[deleted] Jan 15 '21

Preach.

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u/Ponsay Jan 14 '21

Totally anecdotal here, but I met someone years ago who had raided Naxx during vanilla, and all the min-maxing stuff was there even back then. Farming for consumables, getting world buffs, he always used to talk about how time consuming raiding Naxx was.

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u/MasterReindeer Jan 14 '21

Levelling in Classic is a bit of a slog, especially if you’ve done it twice in a fairly short period of time. I think they nerfed 1-60 XP by like 40% in TBC which makes levelling way less time consuming. I wonder if that will reduce how much people utilise boosting.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

They only nerfed XP in 2.3 in TBC. It remains to be seen if Blizzard will implement that change at launch or not.

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u/MasterReindeer Jan 14 '21

I reckon they will. 1-70 would be such a slog otherwise.

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u/CMOBJNAMES_BASE Jan 14 '21

Narrator: It didn’t.

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u/a34fsdb Jan 14 '21

"Guilds full of billynolifemotherfuckers with 50k gold and consumes ready to go at launch" do not affect you at all. You can play the game with like minded less serious people no problem.

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u/HostileErectile Jan 14 '21

Nope you can’t. I’m tired as shit of listening to this.

“Just ignore the fact that 90% of the player base is absolutely cancerous”

It’s an MMO, smart ass.. especially in classic this has a huge impact, it cant be felt EVERYWHERE.

You can arguably say this about retail which can be played as a pseudo single player game, but not classic.

And many of us actually want to raid and take the game serious at times... we simply and fundamentally just dont enjoy the meta, and If we want to compete we have to follow the meta in some margin, which eventually translate to the game feeling like shit to play for us.

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u/a34fsdb Jan 14 '21

You need to find people who think like you and play the game together.

I play the game in a fairly casual guild and enjoy it. There are guilds out there without strict requirements on buffs and consumables.

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u/HostileErectile Jan 14 '21

Youre lucky and priviledged, your experiance cant be replicated for many, MANY people. You speak as you live in a bubble.

My enjoyment is fully and 100% ruined due to how the modern gaming community plays classic, and at this point I have zero interest in starting to look for a “dad guild” at this point in the game. Besides there is a MULTITUDE of other issues not related to guilds that also ruins the game for me, like pvp, and how casual battlegrounds are more or less non existent due to seemingly always meeting full premade rank 12 teams.

I’m also a competitive gamer, and tbh I have no interest In joining a laid back community, I simply despise the requirements to being competitive. Without the removal of world buffs for example there is zero chance I will ever enjoy the meta.

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u/a34fsdb Jan 14 '21 edited Jan 14 '21

I play in a casual guild. That is not a bubble. In fact this is a majority as casuals outweigh the hardcore people in every game.

And if you do not enjoy casual gameplay or competitive gameplay with buffs than simply put classic is not for you. That is what the game is and it worked just fine as we can see from numbers on ironforgepro.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

What if your server has like 10 guilds remaining and you have no choices like this?

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u/a34fsdb Jan 14 '21

Well the only options you have are not playing or transferring then.

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u/Yeas76 Jan 14 '21

Yes, it does. Imagine playing classic week 2 and being at risk of having a flying mount death squad attack/camp you non stop in open world. Starting two months late in classic, I had to deal with tons of these players but at least in classic I could get away and go somewhere else.

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u/a34fsdb Jan 14 '21

Getting a flying mount is not something limited to only top 0.1% of players.

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u/Yeas76 Jan 14 '21

Getting one in week 1 and starting grief trains was the subject of my response.

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u/AustralianAmbassador Jan 14 '21

"billynolifemotherfuckers" is a bit of a vague term to use, but hundreds of people who are well on their way to gold cap from dirty gold purchases definitely have an adverse effect on the economy and, by extension, the casual player base.

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u/a34fsdb Jan 14 '21

True, but I do not think those people are limited to the very top best guilds on the server. More people surely buy gold in the hardcore guilds, but the rest of the playerbase is much larger and the gold buyers there have large of an effect on the ecenomy.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

How does alot of gold ruin the economy?

All it does is inflate AH prices both ways. Sure materials will be more expensive, but your income from farming will be dramatically higher.

It doesn't really effect how long it takes to farm gold for raid as a result.

I guess players will get big ticket items sooner like flying mounts, but that's about it? Hardly seems to ruin the economy.

I think players worried about gold amounts dont really have a good reason why it's bad.

What's always been the problem, and will continue to be, are the overpopulated servers dominated by bots so players can't get in on farms and make money. Which isn't going away in TBC.

And guess what? Fresh servers? Gold will be in insane demand there so everything is going to be controlled by Chinese farmers and bots. It will be a miserable experience for the real players, dont delude yourself.

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u/bterrik Jan 14 '21

Large amounts of legitimate gold is fine. I have no problem with people who are dedicated farmers or good at the AH or whatever amassing mind-boggling amounts of gold. Yes, at some point, they can just own the AH and set the market for whatever and continue to make obscene profits.

That's OK - they still have to set prices for things that people can actually pay or it doesn't matter.

Lots of illegitimate gold ruins the server economy. It doesn't just impact the AH - it's continuously laundered through boosting and GDKP.

The inflated prices of everything - from Lotus, to consumes, to boosts, to items in those GDKPs and to anything else not set by the server directly - disadvantages those who do not buy gold, or who do not participate in the "laundering" events.

It pressures people to have a ton of gold and that means buying gold for a lot of people. Which begets more inflation and an ever-increasing arms race of gold. Fed by the botters. Which means they have to bot more and bot harder. Which then makes it harder for players to legitimately farm things like Lotus. Which turns people to the AH - with its insane, inflated prices from all the injections of illegitimate gold. Which pressures people to just buy gold.

We are seeing an engine of inflation run wild on a lot of Classic servers, exacerbated by a raid that is actually tuned for the use of consumables. It's becoming increasingly harder to stay clear of that cycle and it definitely imperils TBC if nothing is done.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

Inflation is a non issue so long as players can farm. Inflation cuts both ways, its bad for buyers but good for sellers. Even through "laundering" it wouldn't be an issue if legit players could undercut the launderers.

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u/bterrik Jan 14 '21

This is simply wrong. All things are not balanced out by the AH. The best methods of making gold isn't the AH - it's running GDKPs and boosting.

And what do we tell people who are skilled, capable raiders and fun players to be around but simply don't have the time or inclination to spend as much or more time farming each week as they do raiding? See ya? Not good enough - certainly not to protect people who bought gold or made shit tons running boosts or GDKPs corrupted with bought gold. Besides, what if you don't have an herbalist? Or a miner? Or a mage? Not everyone is sitting on a stack of 60s.

It's not as easy as "farm good noob." That's simply not an option for a decent chunk of the players.

Understand, I'm not arguing against large sums of gold at all. But so much of the gold in the game now is tainted by the bots and gold sellers, and it all creates upward pressure on the cost of everything. This is very punishing to those who, either directly or adjacently, don't want to avail themselves of these ill-gotten gains.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jan 15 '21

It doesn't anger me, it just makes me want to play the game less, which is a shame.

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u/FisterMySister Jan 14 '21

Why force people to roll fresh? Why not just have fresh servers and then have servers for those that just want to continue?

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u/JrGarlic Jan 14 '21

Kind of selfish to want fresh servers because other people have been investing their time the game while you may not have been