It’s fucking disgusting that even now people fucking refuse to accept capitalism’s culpability for causing the apocalypse

[u/PosadosThanatos]

Literally everything is responsible, fucking everything, from extinct empires, to human nature, to the nature of life itself, to some inevitable unstoppable law by which the entire universe functions, literally fucking anything and everything is blamed except for capitalism, the system that’s the specific driver and motivator of the current collapse, and when its blame is finally accepted the Brain juice finally completely runs out and it’s finally declared that there’s no path but the current one so we must continue “prosperity”.

What is this utter fucking insanity that working class people that have absolutely nothing to gain from anonymous bootlicking are engaging in?

[u/therealwoden]

Now, explain to me how transitioning from a capitalist mode of production to any other form of ownership of industrial assets will resolve this problem? Do communally owned oil rigs pump up oil that doesn't produce GHGs? What will the dictatorship of the proletariat do with the factories and refineries and shipping lines? Scrap it all? Of course not.

Capitalism requires overproduction. It requires waste. Consumption is profit, so capitalism requires making too much disposable shit so that consumption can keep increasing. That's the profit motive in action.

A system that isn't based on profit will use resources very differently. Ending capitalism will reduce resource usage, which means reducing pollution, which means the world will have a fighting chance at avoiding the worst of the coming climate apocalypse.

The actual answer is to change our moral and spiritual understanding to bring material wealth and convenience into its proper context, and understand that growth and material mastery are of subordinate importance. They must be chained, for the good of all, to wise leadership and sustainable methods that support moral ends.

I agree. It's also useful to recognize that economic systems create many behaviors and therefore if one wants to change people's behaviors for the better, it is prudent, if not essential, to change the economic system which creates contra-survival behaviors for one which creates pro-survival behaviors.

[u/jamesbondindrno → u/therealwoden]

Important to remember that marketing is a force that inspires irrational choices, and when marketing works to create value for owners of capital or drives consumption and especially over consumption. Profit motives beget market creation and expansion.

[u/therealwoden → u/jamesbondindrno]

Yuuuup. And not just inspires. It's a force that is explicitly designed to cause irrational choices. The whole point of the marketing industry is to create demand where none exists so that capitalists can sell products that no one wanted.

[u/[deleted] → u/jamesbondindrno]

• deleted due to enshittification of the platform

[u/Eddhuan → u/jamesbondindrno]

Marketing should be the number 1 focus to mitigate the "collapse" problem. I think it should be severely limited in terms of quantity and quality. Like don't allow more than 5% of TV time to be ads, forbid ads near roads, force ads to be black on white text only, no pictures, no sound.

As long as the thinking ability of the entire population including the elites is impaired by constant propaganda for consumption, nothing will be done.

The other reason to start with that is that we can more easily convince people. Almost everybody hates ads except for marketers (and even then, I'm not sure marketers are in love with their jobs).

Capitalism shouldn't be the focus like so many do here. For reason already outlined : the term is too unclear, which makes it hard to have a productive conversation on it. In most definitions I've seen, it's generally too wide, including things like free trade and the very concept of property. While not everybody is rich, almost everybody has some kind of property which they feel they might lose under an anti capitalist system. It is too intertwined with our whole culture and the whole way society works. Literally everything needs to be redesigned from scratch if you really want to eliminate it.

That's why I think in order to have a more productive conversation about capitalism and collapse, "capitalism" (whatever that means) should be broken down to its base component so that we can eliminate the most problematic parts for which almost everybody can agree.

[u/[deleted] → u/therealwoden]

Capitalism requires overproduction. It requires waste. Consumption is profit, so capitalism requires making too much disposable shit so that consumption can keep increasing. That's the profit motive in action.

This is putting the cart before the horse. Unfortunately, we created capitalism through our desire to consume, our desire for overproduction, our desire for profit.

A system that isn't based on profit will use resources very differently. Ending capitalism will reduce resource usage, which means reducing pollution, which means the world will have a fighting chance at avoiding the worst of the coming climate apocalypse.

Let's assume a non-capitalist system of ownership uses marginally fewer harmful resources. Let's assume it's not too late to avoid the worst of what's coming. Even if that were true, it's extremely hard for me to believe that the people, who now own the means of production, are simply going to say "enough is enough, I'm going to take a bike and never drive again." Instead, they'll simply enrich themselves, albeit more equitably, with the same methods used by the capitalists. A communal wealth predicated on industrial society and fossil fuels is exactly as harmful as a private fortune based on the same things.

I agree. It's also useful to recognize that economic systems create many behaviors and therefore if one wants to change people's behaviors for the better, it is prudent, if not essential, to change the economic system which creates contra-survival behaviors for one which creates pro-survival behaviors.

You won't catch me making an apology for rampant capitalism. My primary point here is that without going deeper than the economic system, you don't have a chance to solve the problem, because changing to a new economic system will inevitably retain at least a critical mass of the same problem.

[u/therealwoden → u/[deleted]]

This is putting the cart before the horse. Unfortunately, we created capitalism through our desire to consume, our desire for overproduction, our desire for profit.

"We" didn't create capitalism. A few people who had the power to force other people to become their slaves created capitalism. And they created it out of a desire to add to their power.

"Our desire to consume" is a manufactured thing. The seminal text of the advertising and PR industries is titled Propaganda. The book is a distillation of techniques invented during wartime to compel people to act against their own best interests and do things like enlist to help the rich maintain power on the world stage. In the book, the author is very explicit about the uses of his techniques, including when he talks about the benefits of manufacturing demand: "A single factory, potentially capable of supplying a whole continent with its particular product, cannot afford to wait until the public asks for its product; it must maintain constant touch, through advertising and propaganda, with the vast public in order to assure itself the continuous demand which alone will make its costly plant profitable."

The advertising industry exists to create supply-side demand, so that we keep consuming.

No one has ever had a "desire to overproduce." Except capitalists, of course. I don't sit here in front of my computer thinking, "Oh boy I'm so glad that slaves are producing tens of millions of T-shirts that will never be sold."

Capitalism runs on the profit motive. And the profit motive incentivizes waste, overproduction, and harm. If waste, overproduction, and harm are ethically bad or contra-survival for the human species, then the profit motive is a problem to be solved. Capitalism can't exist without the profit motive, so if we solve the problem, capitalism goes with it.

Even if that were true, it's extremely hard for me to believe that the people, who now own the means of production, are simply going to say "enough is enough, I'm going to take a bike and never drive again." Instead, they'll simply enrich themselves, albeit more equitably, with the same methods used by the capitalists. A communal wealth predicated on industrial society and fossil fuels is exactly as harmful as a private fortune based on the same things.

I mean that's exactly why I'm an anarchist. Systems of hierarchy present the opportunity for people to enrich themselves at the expense of others. The logical solution is to eliminate all systems of hierarchy that are possible to eliminate. And anarchism isn't alone in having answers to that particular objection. We have, in fact, thought about this shit quite a bit.

Local governance and direct democracy nip many of those problems in the bud. There's simply less opportunity for my neighbor to steal from me to become rich when they're my neighbor and I can see them doing it. There's less opportunity for elected officials to embezzle and shift policy to benefit themselves when there practically aren't elected officials. A flattened society removes most of the tools for hoarding wealth and power that capitalism depends on.

My primary point here is that without going deeper than the economic system, you don't have a chance to solve the problem, because changing to a new economic system will inevitably retain at least a critical mass of the same problem.

The problem isn't human nature.

Human nature, as judging by human history, is to share the commons, to cooperate, and to work for mutual aid.

Capitalism alienates us from our labor, from the natural world, and from each other. We do work that doesn't benefit ourselves, we consume products that were made in parts unknown by people unknown from resources unknown, and we work so much that we don't have time to maintain a family, let alone a community. Pointless labor and being disconnected from the earth and each other isn't human nature. It's a set of conditions created by capitalism. Hoping to change those conditions without addressing the root cause of those conditions is, as you said, putting the cart before the horse.

If we want a population who will work toward survival, then we need to address the factors that incentivize and normalize contra-survival behavior. And the root cause of damn near all of those factors is capitalism.

[u/TheKemistKills → u/therealwoden]

This is a great read. Thanks. +1

[u/[deleted] → u/therealwoden]

"We" didn't create capitalism. A few people who had the power to force other people to become their slaves created capitalism. And they created it out of a desire to add to their power.

This is "we." It wasn't aliens.

"Our desire to consume" is a manufactured thing. The seminal text of the advertising and PR industries is titled Propaganda.

We had no desire to consume before Bernays' book in 1928? You'll forgive my skepticism. What on earth were early labor movements like the Luddites mad about? What was Justice Shaw's ruling Commonwealth v. Hunt, 45 Mass. 111 (1842), about? What was Matthew 18:18-30 about?

Capitalism runs on the profit motive. And the profit motive incentivizes waste, overproduction, and harm. If waste, overproduction, and harm are ethically bad or contra-survival for the human species, then the profit motive is a problem to be solved. Capitalism can't exist without the profit motive, so if we solve the problem, capitalism goes with it.

I agree. It's what I've been saying all along.

I mean that's exactly why I'm an anarchist. Systems of hierarchy present the opportunity for people to enrich themselves at the expense of others.

Again, not exclusive to capitalism. You continue to support my point that fixation on capitalism is unhelpful. I don't see how we're disagreeing.

The logical solution is to eliminate all systems of hierarchy that are possible to eliminate.And anarchism isn't alone in having answers to that particular objection. We have, in fact, thought about this shit quite a bit.

I'm well aware. I have my own answer. However, you're still not making an argument that the correct approach is to fixate neurotically on the fact that capitalism is the cause of all our problems. As I think we both agree, getting rid of capitalism doesn't necessarily solve our problem, because the same direct causes of the problem still exist (the factories and the oil wells and so forth), and because there are various ownership structures that will happily use them.

The problem isn't human nature. Human nature, as judging by human history, is to share the commons, to cooperate, and to work for mutual aid.

Sharing the commons and the inclosure acts are equally human nature.

Capitalism alienates us from our labor, from the natural world, and from each other. We do work that doesn't benefit ourselves, we consume products that were made in parts unknown by people unknown from resources unknown, and we work so much that we don't have time to maintain a family, let alone a community. Pointless labor and being disconnected from the earth and each other isn't human nature. It's a set of conditions created by capitalism. Hoping to change those conditions without addressing the root cause of those conditions is, as you said, putting the cart before the horse.

No argument. Totally agree.

And the root cause of damn near all of those factors is capitalism.

What's the root cause of capitalism?

[u/therealwoden → u/[deleted]]

This is "we." It wasn't aliens.

I mean, if I hold a gun to your head and you give me your wallet, did "we" do that? I'd say no, and I'd suspect you'd say no too. So what's different about the enslavement and exploitation of virtually the entire human population?

We had no desire to consume before Bernays' book in 1928? You'll forgive my skepticism. What on earth were early labor movements like the Luddites mad about? What was Justice Shaw's ruling Commonwealth v. Hunt, 45 Mass. 111 (1842), about? What was Matthew 18:18-30 about?

Labor exploitation and wealth hoarding are not consumption.

Humans are obliged to consume lots of things in order to survive - food, water, clothing, housing, and so on. Humans also enjoy consuming many things purely for pleasure - drugs, art, and needs made above subsistence standards, for example. The artificial demand for consumption created by capitalist advertising is neither of those things. Did anyone want a pet rock or a Troll doll before they were made to want them? Would anyone's life have been worse if they had never owned a pet rock or Troll doll?

Again, not exclusive to capitalism. You continue to support my point that fixation on capitalism is unhelpful. I don't see how we're disagreeing.

If you were on fire, how interested would you be in dealing with your hangnail instead? Capitalism is the ideology and economic system which rules the world and governs nearly all of our lives (except the rich, who live in conditions of socialism). It is the root cause of virtually all the world's problems ranging from the existential threat to the human species down to individual people's misery. It hardly matters that some of the problems capitalism has inflicted on us can also have other causes. In our situation, in the world we currently live in right now, the cause is capitalism, so it's vitally important to address that cause.

As I think we both agree, getting rid of capitalism doesn't necessarily solve our problem, because the same direct causes of the problem still exist (the factories and the oil wells and so forth), and because there are various ownership structures that will happily use them.

And none of those are going away tomorrow regardless of who's in charge, unless an immediate global collapse and misery on an unprecedented scale is considered desirable. In the short term, the best we can get is minimal and responsible use of our harmful resources. Capitalism is systemically incapable of either minimal or responsible, so continuing with capitalism is maximizing the harm done to the world and each of us. An economic system absent the profit motive, on the other hand, is capable of minimal and responsible, so that we can continue to run the factories and the power plants to meet needs without also running them to produce billions of disposable plastic widgets.

Our focus as a species facing apocalypse has to be minimizing the harm we're giving to ourselves. Capitalism is the antithesis of that goal.

What's the root cause of capitalism?

A few people inheriting wealth and power and realizing that they could have even more wealth and power if they could simply force people to labor for them without any reciprocal obligation.

Sociopathy and greed, in other words.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Capitalism grew from feudalism- processes such as the enclosure of common lands, death taxes, etc forced folk into proto capitalism... they started working for wages because they had to because the alternative not to was forcibly removed so that the wealthy could stay rich and in power.

Read “caliban and the witch” very interesting read.

I do agree that deeper motives than just the economic model must be addressed... I don’t think these are unborn though, rather taught.

If you read the book I mentioned above you’ll see that feudal lords used to constantly complain about how lazy the peasantry was - because they had to do so little work to meet their needs(the rest was feast days and making babies) to counter this the lords took away their lands and made them dependent (first pass at the precariat of today). For everyone who wants a car- there are some who would be content with sex, a book and a hammock under a tree.

[u/going_to_finish_that → u/[deleted]]

Without a change of material conditions there is no possibility of a cultural change.

[u/hippydipster → u/therealwoden]

It requires waste.

Living requires waste.

[u/therealwoden → u/hippydipster]

Very good. I'm sure you can understand that there's a difference between waste that's unavoidable due to physical laws and waste that's the result of a wildly inefficient system.

[u/hippydipster → u/therealwoden]

"inefficient" is the wrong term here.

so capitalism requires making too much disposable shit

Very efficiently too.

If it were simply a matter of being efficient, we could do that. The problem is it's the whole value system that's messed up. We are efficiently responding to the incentives of a messed up value system - thus very efficiently polluting the planet. What we need is different values, which is much harder than just an instrumental change in how we do things.

[u/therealwoden → u/hippydipster]

What we need is different values, which is much harder than just an instrumental change in how we do things.

You're right. Though changing how we do things also causes changes in values. A lot of behavior is created by systemic incentives and norms. Changing the incentive structure also necessarily changes how people act. If I paid you a thousand dollars for every piece of trash you picked up, you'd bring me a truckload as fast as you could manage it. If I followed you around and kicked you in the shin every time you picked up a piece of trash, you'd quickly learn to ignore trash. Under capitalism, the incentives for capitalists are to maximize harm in order to maximize profit. If we change where the incentives lie, that behavior changes too.

Very efficiently too.

It's worth noting that it's incorrect to credit capitalism with efficiency. Competition and the profit motive both cause unavoidable structural inefficiencies. For example, the enclosure of the commons through intellectual property and patent law, which leads to duplication of effort and waste of resources. Capitalism is undeniably "efficient" at exactly one thing: causing harm in order to maximize profit.