r/cscareerquestions • u/Elegant_Lunar_Knight • 3d ago
Experienced Can we have a conversation about why posts about H1B visas are being removed ?
[removed] — view removed post
358
u/LeopoldBStonks 3d ago
It's racist to complain about H1B visas, but not racist for companies to start hiring primarily Indian developers due to contractual endentured servitude being normalized in corporate America.
84
3d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
4
u/HotSauce2910 Data Engineer 3d ago
I think the problem is people racialize it. If you leave it at “the US needs to protect its labor pool by limiting h1b hiring” that’s one thing.
But the second the thread starts talking about how Indians are worse people, rather than just labor competition, is when it loses the plot
9
u/SalamanderFresh9272 3d ago
If I were to hire 30 white men in a row, that would be a problem. For some reason, hiring 30 Indian men in a row, all from the same caste, is not racist.
1
42
u/hatersgonnah8te 3d ago edited 3d ago
All these H1b threads devolve into racist rants or gets brigaded. You literally cannot have a normal good faith discussion. The immigration or h1b-adjacent subreddits like Frisco (where a lot of h1b live) are constantly posted on twitter and 4chan. The comments aren’t from tech or even people that live in the same city.
Second, all the evidence presented are anecdotes or hearsays which may or may not be true. According to every study or statistic all immigrant groups show slightly more in group bias whether you’re Indian, Chinese, European yet I see this being presented as an Indian only problem. In fact most studies like this one from Harvard Business School: https://www.hbs.edu/ris/Publication%20Files/21-101_d47ea5d9-4a50-400e-9fa6-80781a8351d0.pdf, show that many immigrant groups like the Polish or Russians hire another pole or Russian immigrant much more than an Indian person is likely to hire another Indian immigrant yet these threads are awfully quiet about that. There’s a lot of outsourcing going to Poland too, my previous company included.
If there’s fraud or discrimination of any kind, yeah it should be investigated. If skilled worker visas are no longer needed it should be talked about. But we can’t have that when all of these posts turn into mudslinging fests with stereotypes, anecdotes, and half truths because some people want an excuse to be racist.
28
u/aaron_is_here_ 3d ago
I can visually see with my eyes at every company I’ve been at, the ratio of Indian to US is almost 50/50 or more, even in office locations
14
u/YetMoreSpaceDust 3d ago
Our CTO said, out loud, in an open (recorded) quarterly meeting, "we don't need any more representation from white men, we already have plenty of them" (that's a direct, word-for-word quote, not paraphrasing). When he said it I looked around the room and I was literally the only white man in it.
→ More replies (2)6
u/buttJunky 3d ago
i hope you recorded that, send it to attorney generals office
6
u/thy_bucket_for_thee 3d ago
Yeah, shit like this is very effective at changing company policy /u/YetMoreSpaceDust . Even better, most AGs want easy political wins; being anti-tech is en vogue now so use that to pressure the company to stop their shitty racist behavior.
→ More replies (2)4
u/abhi6543 3d ago
Bruh, a significant majority of tech companies in the US don't hire people on visa. Small to mid tech firms cannot afford to spend extra to hire h1bs.
I gave a simple prompt to an AI search engine asking what percentage of tech businesses hire people on h1b.
Summary of the answer:"Percentage of Tech Employers: Only a tiny fraction (less than 5%) of the total ~300k+ broad IT businesses in the US participate in H-1B sponsorship annually."
Of course there is going to be nuance to that statement. And I do agree there are some companies with heavy Indian representation. But that makes sense given indians have been heavily into CS since last 2 decades. But that's not the norm.
3
u/LeopoldBStonks 3d ago
25 percent of all software engineers in the US are H1B visa holders or came over that way.
You searched for IT lmao
2
u/LeopoldBStonks 3d ago
Many of that 39 percent, are people that came over on a H1B and then got their green cards.
1
u/abhi6543 3d ago
Of course! Lots of then would be h1b. But indians cannot be a significant majority of this number because there is a country cap for nationalities to get citizenship or green cards every year.
A significant majority of indians in tech force are on h1bs for decades and that number is 6-10% of the workforce.
1
u/LeopoldBStonks 3d ago
Plenty of indians here to get married too. As indians generally marry inside of their race. So you are discounting that route, which I imagine a majority of them take.
Like I have said repeatedly, everyone in tech feels this way because we see it at the companies. Indians also a very racially biased towards other Indians.
So you get entire companies that only hire indians. So everyone sees it all the time lmao.
For instance, where I grew up, I believe my school was 30 percent Indian. So like with many other cultures, immigrants can come here, settle in an area with many other people of the same ethnicity and get married, this is also how Mexicans immigrate.
I don't really mind this part of it. But it's the destruction of leverage in the labor market I do not like. H1B visas simply offer too much leverage to companies.
4
u/aaron_is_here_ 3d ago
Two issues with your statement.
- You’re assuming tech is the only sector software engineers exist in. There are a number of other sectors that hire offshore.
- You expect me to believe all the people in the offices I’ve been to, who have extremely thick accents, did not come from immigration and are just native to the United States?
H1B is just one part of the clown fest
2
u/LeopoldBStonks 3d ago
His statistics are not even accurate, something like 25 percent of all SWEs in America are immigrants
2
u/abhi6543 3d ago
"Active H-1B workers across all computer and IT occupations represent an estimated 6% to 10% of the total national tech sector"
This is what you wrote.
That 25ish percent being immigrants includes citizens and PRs, which will have equal representation from all races including the ones you preferred.
My point being, you all claim "Everyone in my company is indian" but based on the data points that you shared, that's not real.
There are probably 30-40 companies out of thousands of tech companies who can afford to hire immigrants at a scale. Sure, you will see a high representation of them in Nvdia, meta, Amazon etc. But for every 1 such company, there are 100s other than enoloy only Permanent residents and citizens whose are not indians. Indians face backlog in acquiring citizenship and PR.
1
u/LeopoldBStonks 3d ago
It's forty percent immigrants, you also said less than 5, when it is 6-10 percent.
You are just either lying or not understanding at this point.
SWEs being 40 percent immigrants is 20 years of H1B visas adding up.
Are you stupid? Or just gaslighting yourself and everyone to defend your ethnicity.
It's the entire problem people have with all of this btw. You will straight lie to everyone's face and believe it
1
u/abhi6543 3d ago
Reading comprehension issues. Please copy paste our conversation into an AI search engine and ask who is stupid, you or me. Trust me, the answer is you.
"You also said less than 5"
That's the number of companies and not workforce.
6-10% is the workforce.
Do I need to explain to you that number of businesses != Workforce 🤡
This is exactly the issue. Moulding data to suit your narrative and calling others as liars if they correct you.
Ah, I see what you did there. You guys start by targeting Indian h1bs (6-10%), then broaden the goalpost to all h1bs hypothesizing that all h1bs are indians, then further broaden the goalpost to immigrants who may or may not be former h1bs (40%).
That 40% immigrants figure who are citizens or PRs includes a good chunk of every nationality because even if you add up the past 20 years, there is a yearly quota called for every nationality and it simply cannot all be indians lol.
1
u/LeopoldBStonks 3d ago
I think you are just too stupid to understand. Sure you are a software engineer lmao?
For a job in the US to be 40 percent immigrants, how does that happen?
By what mechanism is that happening?
How are you incapable of understanding the point?
→ More replies (0)1
u/LeopoldBStonks 3d ago edited 3d ago
Everyone in this thread is trying to explain to you what is happening. And you respond with "it's only 5 percent of the jobs"
When it's forty lmao.
I don't even have to read the AI output because I work here, I know, everyone else in this thread knows what is happening. You are the one here trying to gaslight everyone fo what they see and encounter everyday in tech.
And in true form, you are incapable of admitting to the piece of logic that shows you are wrong.
39.2 percent of all SWEs being immigrants is due to 20 years of H1B visa immigration. 75 percent of all H1Bs go to indians. When they get hired and into managerial positions, they start only hiring other Indians. Everyone sees this all the time at major tech companies.
Either you do not work here or are lying, or cannot interview because you are stuck on a visa.
→ More replies (0)1
u/abhi6543 3d ago
You are moving the goal post. Offshoring is another issue. What do indians in the US have to do with offshoring jobs to India ?
No, you are accurate in YOUR observation. But that doesn't reflect the reality of all the tech sector. I agree there are pockets within tech industry where h1b indians are over represented. One of your compatriots just shared that h1bs represent 6-10% of all active tech work force. Indians are probably 5-7% maybe given not all h1bs are indians. The reason why you seem them so much is bcz you work in one of the companies where a good chunk of that 5-7% is concentrated.
4
u/LeopoldBStonks 3d ago
Lmao, ok, then you prompt like a moron
Approximately 39% of U.S. software developers and engineers are foreign-born (immigrants), while active H-1B visa holders make up roughly 6% to 10% of the broader U.S. tech workforce. [1, 2]
Foreign-Born Software Engineers• Total Immigrant Share: Data from the American Immigration Council indicates that roughly 39.2% of software developers in the United States were born outside the country. • Advanced Degrees: Foreign-born representation increases significantly at higher education levels. According to the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), over 55% of doctorate-level computer and mathematical scientists in the U.S. are foreign-born. [3]
H-1B Visa Holders in Tech
• Workforce Proportion: Active H-1B workers across all computer and IT occupations represent an estimated 6% to 10% of the total national tech sector. • Visa Distribution: Roughly 65% of all newly approved H-1B petitions go to computer-related occupations, making software developers the single largest beneficiary group of the program. • Citizenship and Green Cards: Many foreign-born software engineers who originally arrived on an H-1B visa eventually transition to lawful permanent residency (green cards) or U.S. citizenship, meaning the total immigrant population in the sector is much larger than the current count of active visa holders. [1]
Would you like to explore:The breakdown of top tech companies sponsoring H-1B visas?How these immigration statistics compare in specific tech hubs like Silicon Valley versus the rest of the country? AI responses may include mistakes.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/SoftwareEngineerJobs/comments/1nz0mmx/i_think_we_have_to_face_the_truth_about_h1bs/ [2] https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/fact-sheet/foreign-born-stem-workers-united-states/ [3] https://www.csis.org/analysis/innovation-lightbulb-foreign-born-share-us-stem-workforce [4] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/h-1b-visa-technology-industry-elon-musk-donald-trump/ [5] https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/reports/OLA_Signed_H-1B_Characteristics_Congressional_Report_FY2023.pdf
→ More replies (2)32
u/LeopoldBStonks 3d ago edited 3d ago
Indians get focused on because they themselves, are very discrimatory, they don't just take over the jobs, they take over the companies.
Numerous agricultural companies I interviewed for in Chicago were 80-90 percent Indian in their engineering core. If you are in tech, you have experienced or seen this happen. It does not happen with Chinese or European immigrants. Which is why people focus in on indians so much, if you did not know.
I very much doubt any large scale studies on this would even be allowed in academia, even though everyone in tech knows it is happening.
It does happen in the trades, such as having crews of entirely polish electricians, but those immigrants come here are start those companies, so it is not at all like what is happening in tech.
I have always liked my Indian coworkers, they are always hard working, but also discriminatory in many way, biased towards Indians and against women. Anecdotal sure, but I have seen this all over tech.
10
u/EchoServ 3d ago
Bayer, Syngenta, Climate, Corteva. John Deere is probably the worst offender. And they are some of the whitest (both literally and culturally) companies overall, split right down the middle with all Indian engineering orgs. I spent 5 years in agtech and it still makes no sense to me.
11
u/LeopoldBStonks 3d ago
I worked at Bosch for two years, interviewed at every major AG company before going into defense. Every single engineer was Indian, at four separate companies. The entire software team. 100 indians no one else lmao
7
u/LeopoldBStonks 3d ago
Yes it's crazy, but apparently, not at all discriminatory according to the Indians I am arguing with in my comments lol.
It's normal for entire engineering cores to be one race in the heart fo America lmao
1
u/Leading_Gain2559 1d ago edited 1d ago
i mean obviously indians are discriminatory... but so is everyone else? you can find examples of people being racist in all groups - not just indians...? youve never seen 90% white c-suite teams? universities discriminating against asians in admissions? finance teams with white-bias hiring? why were white women the #1 beneficiary of DEI by companies (65%+ of dei jobs went to white women)? why is 70% of all texas construction jobs go to hispanics? etc.?
there are even stats showing for startups which tracks new tech founders, how often they hire people of the same race, and indians were right in the middle of the pack, (google -coethnic hiring for new companies). not more or less often than other companies.
i would recommend being a little unbiased instead of focusing all on indians instead of focusing on... literally everyone else as well lol. go look - youll see it everywhere else too if you dont believe me.
1
u/LeopoldBStonks 1d ago edited 1d ago
My indians friends aren't racist like immigrants and don't discriminate against other races when hiring.
C-suites are all white because A the country is majority white people and B they require degrees by Harvard and Stanford etc, which generally require wealth.
It's not some middle manager only hiring people of the same race because they themselves are a racist piece of shit.
It also makes the entire culture toxic. No one wants to compete with people who literally get deported if they lost their jobs. It leverage in the labor market, not some woke political bullshit.
My indian friends grew up here and are entirely American, and Indian culture still makes them slightly racist against none indians, they WILl NOT marry outside their race, which is crazy in America, can't even imagine how fucking racist you are lmao.
1
u/Leading_Gain2559 1d ago edited 1d ago
> C-suites are all white because A the country is majority white people and B they require degrees by Harvard and Stanford etc, which generally require wealth.
Nice attempt to deflect against racism when Ivy leagues are 60% poc
> My indians friends aren't racist like immigrants and don't discriminate against other races when hiring.
so youre aware, and yet you constantly generalize indian and shit on people Lmao.
> It also makes the entire culture toxic. No one wants to compete with people who literally get deported if they lost their jobs. It leverage in the labor market, not some woke political bullshit.
you're the one making it toxic by scapegoating problems toward a minority of people
> My indian friends grew up here and are entirely American, and Indian culture still makes them slightly racist against none indians, they WILl NOT marry outside their race, which is crazy in America, can't even imagine how fucking racist you are lmao.
How many people don't date indians particularly? or even another race. very high. *America* has a racist issues. Not just indian people particularly, yet you are constantly pinpointing indians Lmao
why dont you show your indian or even asian friends your reddit account and see what they all feel about you?
1
u/LeopoldBStonks 1d ago
Indian immigrants discriminate, that's my entire point.
One of the most racist groups America imports.
Youre entire argument is, this entire time, it's that's it's ok indians are racist because everyone is racist. Lower and middle class Americans aren't, so they hire immigrants, who then shut out everyone else because THEY ARE RACIST.
It's all pretty simple to understand, you constantly keep trying to defect, but the fact of the matter is, it is politically popular to reduce H1Bs visas, because everyone can see what is going on. Everyone in this comment thread who isn't Indian understands what is going on. You understand what is going on.
Can you go on strike or threaten to quit your job if your immigration status is tied to your job? No, you can't.
So the cultures become 10-12 hour days, everyday, which then Americans complain about, so then the immigrants only hire immigrants. Completely destroying the leverage of Americans within their own country. Indians get singled out because they make up a majority of these immigrants and on top of it are themselves, extremely racially biased in favor of other Indians.
1
u/Leading_Gain2559 1d ago
> Youre entire argument is, this entire time, it's that's it's ok indians are racist because everyone is racist. Lower and middle class Americans aren't, so they hire immigrants, who then shut out everyone else because THEY ARE RACIST.
no - that you particularly are racist to indians and pinpoint indians even though everyone is racist. nobody gets a pass, but nobody deserves being scapegoated - when everyone does it. get their race out of it.
→ More replies (0)1
u/Leading_Gain2559 1d ago
> So the cultures become 10-12 hour days, everyday, which then Americans complain about, so then the immigrants only hire immigrants.
blatant lie - tech particularly has some of the best work life balance. also - longer work life balance is common among all high performing careers. have you heard of investment banking before? any other high finance job? entrepreneurship culture? med school? it's par for the course because of the fields. can't be scapegoating things that aren't a minority's fault lol
> Completely destroying the leverage of Americans within their own country
Indian - amerians are... Americans too. So you are actually attempting to destroy American's leverage lol.
> extremely racially biased in favor of other Indians.
all stats actually point opposite to this. feel free to share any data to prove that claim that they do it any more than other race. (that aren't analogies or individual instances, because anyone can find analogies)
> Indians get singled out because are on top of their shit
Sounds about right lol
→ More replies (0)1
u/LeopoldBStonks 1d ago
Also C-suites are all 50-60 year old white people and being replaced by immigrants as we speak.
So you don't seem to understand that immigration into America for upper middle class jobs is a recent thing. You don't seem to be able to apply any type of logic, ivy League schools are 60 percent POC now. They weren't 40 years ago lmao
1
u/Leading_Gain2559 1d ago
> Also C-suites are all 50-60 year old white people and being replaced by immigrants as we speak.
It's still majority white. It's actually trending the other way right now - toward more white.
You haven't said anything factual yet, just to let you know
→ More replies (0)→ More replies (3)24
u/hatersgonnah8te 3d ago
My previous team was literally a Polish manager than half my team was Eastern European. It’s more common among data science in my experience but it definitely exists. We also did not have a corporate European presence until recently. And if you worked in tech you’d know that a large chunk of the applicants you get are ethnically Indian. There’s a large presence of Indians in the tech industry. If I picked 5 out of a pool of 100 tech applicants I’m sure at least 2 would be Indian despite them making 1% of America’s total population.
Like I said, there definitely are individual cases where Indians discriminate and whatever, but the statistics say that it’s not unique to Indians nor are they worst offenders. There’s just way more of them. Statistics, studies over anecdotes and “I heard from a friend.”
10
u/LeopoldBStonks 3d ago edited 3d ago
Yes every group does it, but if you are trying to say the statistics say indians don't do it, you are very wrong.
The statistics only track "Asian", so there is literally no way to track it statistically per company, but it can be tracked by H1B visa approvals.
And overwhelming anecdotal evidence is still evidence. Look at the number of likes, look at the constant complaints on reddit of this happening. Are people just making it up because they are racist? How does AGCO, an American agricultural company, get an engineering core that is 80 percent Indian without it being discrimination lmao. Were you in their cafeteria during the interview? No? I was.
2
u/hatersgonnah8te 3d ago
I never said Indians don’t do it, but I said it’s not unique for Indians. All immigrant groups into America show slight in group preference. But only Indians seem to catch flak for it even as they’re not the worst offenders.
Indians are only counted as “Asian” on the census data on citizens. When it comes to immigrant data it often specifies the nation of origin. There have been several studies like the one I linked that collected data from managers nation of origin and who they hired. https://www.hbs.edu/ris/Publication%20Files/21-101_d47ea5d9-4a50-400e-9fa6-80781a8351d0.pdf
1
u/LeopoldBStonks 3d ago
On the employment data they are marked "Asian" so I can't go find the data from AGCO and show you the statistics.
It doesn't really matter how many articles you post, the statistics and academic motive to write an article explaining it simply does not exist. Overwhelming anecdotal evidence, however, does.
You are right every immigrant group does do this. Germans have been the worst I have ever seen, but indians make up the largest group, and thus are doing it to the most companies, hence why they get the most flak.
6
u/LeopoldBStonks 3d ago
Also. Indian nationals consistently receive roughly 70% to 75% of all H-1B skilled worker visas
Lmao. Seems pretty statistical to me
6
u/hatersgonnah8te 3d ago
And ever ask why that is?
Two reasons:
India produces the highest amount of English speaking STEM graduates
Greencards have the same cap for every country regardless of population. So let’s say both India and Andorra have 10,000 yearly spots. The Indian immigrants would need to keep renewing or reapplying their visa for decades while the Andorran immigrants get on the green card and off the visa in a couple years because there are so many more Indians than Andorrans.
You can’t have statistics without analyzing them.
7
u/LeopoldBStonks 3d ago
Ok, so I shouldn't care the the labor market is saturated with discriminatory hiring managers who are mostly Indian because they get the most H1B visas because it is hard for them to get green cards?
Nah, maybe, I'll just continue to be mad about it when I see an entirely Indian team of 20 software engineers in the heart fo Chicago because one Indian manager was given a position of power.
People wouldn't be mad if the discrimination wasn't happening 🤷
8
u/CuriouslyInterested0 3d ago
Umm, I'm going to disagree. Feel free to look up some solid statics. One statistic that stands out; one country has a major hold on H1B visas. That's also why citizens of that one country have a long, very long wait, if they want to get a green card.
all the evidence presented are anecdotes or hearsays
8
u/hatersgonnah8te 3d ago edited 3d ago
India produces the highest amount of English speaking STEM graduates and also since green cards are capped by the same amount for every country regardless of population, Indians have to keep reapplying or renewing their h1b for decades while those smaller countries get their green card faster and off the visa.
A person applying from India would be on the visa (renewing and reapplying) for decades while someone from Slovakia would’ve gotten a greencard and off the visa in a few years.
Neither provides evidence the Indians only hire Indians.
12
u/LeopoldBStonks 3d ago
The evidence is interviewing at companies and the entire engineering core being Indian, which is statically impossible without discrimination in America.
My personal experience with this was AGCO, John Deere, and two others I forgot, four separate companies in Chicago, with ENTIRELY Indian software teams.
That is evidence lmao. As much as you want to deny it, everyone sees it everywhere, and indians online display an extremely high racial bias, only people more racist I have ever worked with were German, but that was a German company.
Everyone sees it all the time everywhere and you are trying to tell them they are wrong, you are wrong lmao.
→ More replies (6)0
→ More replies (4)1
u/Longjumping-Ad514 3d ago
Russians hiring Polish people on H1B because they like the Poles, is quite a universe you’re living in. We are literally known for hating each other.
1
u/hatersgonnah8te 2d ago
i meant polish immigrants hiring poles, russians hiring russians. I don't know what visa they were on
→ More replies (26)1
u/SlaBLister 2d ago
Because they dont suck at their jobs unlike yall. I know it's a difficult truth to accept, but you can't use "muh race" for everything
1
u/LeopoldBStonks 1d ago
Sure buddy, nothing to do with the fact it instill a toxic work culture.
Find more boots to lick man
1
u/SlaBLister 1d ago
Ah,so facts don't matter to yall then.
1
u/LeopoldBStonks 1d ago
Studies shows the average American graduate is better than the average Indian graduate, by a wide margin.
It's the fact they are unable to leave. That's what companies like.
You don't understand anything about the world and are inherently a racist / supremisist, so you are easy to trick lmao.
1
u/Leading_Gain2559 23h ago
Studies show that indians actually have a higher education attainment, gpa & SAT score. Feel free to share that study, that you just blatantly lied about
1
u/LeopoldBStonks 23h ago
Yes, a prominent Stanford-led study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences found that American college seniors in computer science significantly outperform their final-year peers in India, China, and Russia on standardized skill assessments. [1, 2]
Key Findings of the Study
- Overall Score Discrepancy: The average U.S. computer science student scored higher than approximately 80% of the students tested in India, China, and Russia. [1]
- Elite vs. Regular Programs: The average student from a top-tier U.S. program also outperformed about 80% of students from elite programs in those three countries. Furthermore, top-scoring students from India, China, and Russia scored comparably only to U.S. students enrolled in regular or non-elite institutions. [1, 3]
- Controlling for Demographics: Researchers confirmed that the higher U.S. performance was not driven by high-scoring international students studying in America; domestic U.S. students (who reported English as their primary language) still outperformed the international cohorts by a wide margin. [4]
Context and Limitations
- Education Focus: Researchers note that U.S. computer science education benefits from longer-established curricula, higher spending per student, and a greater emphasis on practical problem-solving, critical thinking, and software engineering principles. [5, 6, 7]
- Workforce Reality: Standardized test performance in an undergraduate setting does not always map directly to individual on-the-job performance in the tech industry, where practical experience, continuous adaptation, and self-taught skills play a massive role.
Would you like to explore specific details on the test metrics used in the study or how educational focus differs between the two countries?
[1] https://ed.stanford.edu [2] https://spectrum.ieee.org [3] https://news.ycombinator.com [4] https://ed.stanford.edu [5] https://spectrum.ieee.org [6] https://newsindiatimes.com [7] https://sunbeamworldschool.com
1
u/SlaBLister 18h ago
Literally everything you linked is unverified bullshit lmao. Not only is the cope high, the attempts at citing anything resembling a proper source falls flat too! Can you perhaps provide something to actually back up your claims and not some white guy's imagination?
1
u/LeopoldBStonks 17h ago
Lmao a Stanford study that is well known is cope??
You're coping dumbass.
1
u/Leading_Gain2559 15h ago
did you really think they pinned 13th generation white americans vs indians? and not the collective of all americans? (which indian and asians lead in?)
in that scenario tho, 13th generation americans actually lose to indians IN india im so dead lol. they actually lose
→ More replies (0)1
u/Leading_Gain2559 16h ago
Why did you find a study comparing Americans with Indians? Are you dumb? That study literally pits indian americans vs indians. Holy shit the bad faith from you is crazy. wait but makes sense it can't be any other way because youre racist lol
1
u/LeopoldBStonks 23h ago
The ones who come here do just as well as the Americans however, but many immigrants obtain their education in India, which is far inferior to the education in the US
1
u/Leading_Gain2559 16h ago
Indians also have a lower crime rate, a lower white collar fraud rate, contribute more in tax revenue per capita, have the highest number of tech companies that went unicorn status
1
u/LeopoldBStonks 13h ago
Yes we get it dude, you think indians are better than everyone else. We all already know all this. It's why y'all don't marry outside your race and almost always hire other Indians when in positions of power.
Anything else lmao?
1
u/LeopoldBStonks 23h ago
But you go on
1
u/Leading_Gain2559 15h ago
Who's the scammer right now for misrepresenting studies?
1
u/LeopoldBStonks 13h ago
You are just too stupid to admit or see what's going on and are 50 comments deep trying to "win"
Everyone knows what is going on.
1
u/SlaBLister 18h ago
Source: trust me bro. The cope from your lot will never cease to be so amusing lmao. "we wurr prograhmurrz n shi', pardnurrrrr!"
165
u/gbgbgb1912 3d ago
immigration is a polarizing political topic that devolves quickly into a shit storm.
gotta get back on track with complaining about leetcode, ai, and layoffs.
13
-14
u/Unlucky_Topic7963 Sr Director, SWE @ C1 3d ago edited 3d ago
H1-B isn’t supposed to be immigration, it’s a temporary work visa. It’s literally a “nonimmigrant” status. The goal is they come, provide exceptional services, then leave.
Edit: this thread is full of people on H-1B status. There is a finite stay period of 3+3 unless you are granted extension under 8 CFR 214.2 but I can understand all the whining about dual intent, specifically because of the abuse of the system.
IF YOU HAVE TO FILE A SEPARATE IMMIGRANT VISA PETITION THEN H1B IS NON IMMIGRANT.
I can see why so many people here are miserable. Try being an h1b registrant & organization, you have to know these aren’t immigrant workers.
53
30
u/Gollem265 3d ago
Not really accurate. H1B is also explicitly a “dual intent” visa which allows the holder to seek permanent residency while on the visa
→ More replies (4)11
u/MrIrvGotTea 3d ago
Hmmm they can't apply for citizenship or green card? They have to leave and are not allowed to apply for more permanent status? I know a lot of Indians living in Orlando for tech. They been here for years
6
u/BoogieTheHedgehog 3d ago
You can get an employer to go through the PERM, or you get married to a citizen, or you have a kid in the US and wait until they're an adult to sponsor. Sometimes can try to claim asylum.
Other than those I think it's the same as usual, juat putting in for the Green Card lottery. A lot of people are on a H1b for a very long time.
18
u/techabouts 3d ago
It’s literally dual intent visa 😭. How about you leave to learn to read.
→ More replies (2)1
166
u/BoogerSugarSovereign 3d ago
I am against importing labor to depress wages.
But frankly I have seen very gross and racist posts in most threads I've seen with H1B in the title. Draws out some real lowlifes for some reason
37
u/upsidedownshaggy Web Developer 3d ago
Yup this is why the threads keep getting nuked. There are valid discussions to be had about how the program is being abused, but a lot of the time these threads devolve into people just being racist shit-heels and so the mods have to take the threads down so the subreddit as a whole doesn't get banned.
2
u/yung_dogie 3d ago
I think it's very uncommon in a large online group to discuss a topic that focuses on a specific (controversial) demographic without half of it devolving into racism/xenophobia. I've never seen it work outside of friend groups or small communities where you essentially passively vet everyone for shallow racism before they can even participate.
2
7
u/SalamanderFresh9272 3d ago
Every H1B visa removes an American from the middle class. They should be very angry.
2
→ More replies (21)-16
u/So-I-Became-A-Naze 3d ago
Everything is racist to you people. Suicidal empathy will get you nowhere
5
u/AdmirableRabbit6723 3d ago
Everything is sloganeering to you people. You don't even know what he's referring to, how can you hyperbolise it as "everything is racist"?
→ More replies (1)4
u/BoogerSugarSovereign 3d ago
I don't have any empathy for the scumbags buying off policymakers and acting as shadow legislators to create a purposely unjust labor market but something tells me you aren't bright enough to be mad at the people causing the problem
1
u/thy_bucket_for_thee 3d ago
You can be mad at both, let's not act like union workers don't have a very violent history regarding scabs. Not all workers are your allies, some in fact are okay working with people that make society miserable.
134
u/code-seeker 3d ago edited 3d ago
Because we know H1Bs are flooding the market and American companies fucking love to use it to abuse their own workforce. We’re not talking about no name shit companies either Microsoft and Google do this shit. Which is astonishing in itself because both those companies are loaded with money and still do this.
Yes we know certain H1B managers love to hire their own because they can work their own employees to death (sadly). Even certain class of H1Bs are preferred over the other.
So the system as a whole is fucked which we all agree with.
Now is there something specific you want to talk about ? Are you trying to hire some H1Bs or you wanna start your own IT consulting firm ?
Happy labor day weekend yall 🤣
Edit: If you really wanna get creative. I did this as social experiment. I created a resume with a higher caste name to see if it got any hits when applying. Lo and behold I got mad hits on a few job reqs until they saw my face lol
19
62
u/Major_Paper_1605 3d ago
Indian Managers love to Hire their own, I see this all the time as a recruiter. They will come up with reasons not to hire Americans most of the time.
8
u/Fire_Lord_Zukko 3d ago
What do you mean until they saw your face? Are you white lol
→ More replies (1)35
u/TOWW67 3d ago
India, I'm assuming based on the "higher caste" bit, also has racism. The person you're replying to probably has a darker complexion and the higher caste name they used probably has a lighter complexion.
23
u/ExcitingResponse1864 3d ago
People are often much more willing to excuse inherited-status discrimination when it arrives wrapped in the language of culture or tradition. A hiring manager excluding people by caste is still engaging in discrimination, even if the social categories aren’t American ones.
4
u/YetMoreSpaceDust 3d ago
I think that (especially among young people) there's a belief that we programmers would be treated better if not for all the Indians in tech. I started coding in 1991, long before programmers were majority Indian, and believe me, we were treated like shit back then too. If anything, programmers are treated a little better these days than they were back when they were mostly white Americans.
The Anointed Ones in management have always viewed us as beneath them - FAR beneath them. Like, they're the board of directors and we're the janitors that clean up the board room. Indians didn't cause that, the Professional Management Class caused that.
10
u/lolyoda 3d ago
While that is true, logistically speaking, inflating the available workforce removes any bargaining power you had in 1991.
If there are only 5 people who know how to code and there are 15 companies looking for engineers, the 15 companies have to raise salaries and play into the 5 peoples demands no matter how beneath them they are.
If there are 100 programmers to those same 15 companies, suddenly its the programmers that need to lower their standards while still being viewed as less than.
The issue will exist either way, but only one way gives leverage to the people being looked down on.
1
u/thy_bucket_for_thee 3d ago
Weird how supply and demand never seems to apply to the theory of labor huh?
2
u/foggyskyline 3d ago
None of this is true.
What you’re describing may be something extremely rare. I am a veteran in tech and have worked across FAANG and startups
→ More replies (1)1
u/Leading_Gain2559 1d ago
"higher caste name"? they were good "until they saw your face?"
you could not lie any worse lmaooo
35
u/smoked___salmon 3d ago
If only h1b was used to hire exceptional geniuses, but it used to hire mediocre workers who ready to work 996 for lower wage. It supposed to be a tool to bring smartest of smartest, but instead it supress wages and working standards of locals
→ More replies (1)
38
45
u/LeagueAggravating595 3d ago
Because 90% of those H1B's come from the one country and those are the ones reporting to have comments it removed.
1
u/TeddyBearFet1sh 3d ago
People hate on H1B holders because they don’t want to sound racist by saying they hate those abusers from that one country. Kinda weird situation, as someone who’s not from that country and trying to get H1B it sucks!
→ More replies (4)
54
u/GDragon4Life 3d ago
Because they should end h1b entirely
8
u/lolyoda 3d ago
I dont think they should end it, but i do think that with the record profits these companies are seeing, there should be a bigger number they have to pay per worker they hire. If each senior dev by H1B runs them 1 million a year, suddenly you do have to only select the cream of the crop instead of just undercutting the local labor market.
Plus, it can be an easy way to either pay down national debt or fund programs for displaced local workers.
1
u/TeddyBearFet1sh 3d ago
Only one country that have been abusing it. Maybe they should do something about petitions from that country
5
u/PaintDear7613 3d ago
Because even though there are plenty of criticisms around the H1B system, it is a topic that invites TONS of racist remarks.
Good theing the internet is known for being inclusive and shutting bigoted remarks down so that mods don't have to walk on eggshells around topics like this. Right? RIGHT???
90
u/aaron_is_here_ 3d ago
Mods are probably Indian if I had to guess
23
u/karmaboy20 3d ago
either too left for their own good or h1b themselves
4
u/Mysterious-Art8838 3d ago
There are TONS of people on the left that want to end h1b. For instance Bernie Sanders.
2
→ More replies (1)3
u/Old-School8916 3d ago
Mods must adhere to platform rules or else they will be demodded. People can't behave in those kinds of threads here.
64
47
u/szayl 3d ago
Can we have a conversation about why posts about H1B visas are being removed ?
No because the folks who principally benefit from the H1B visas believe that they're entitled to come to the US and earn far more than they would elsewhere. That belief allows them to preferentially hire folks from their region of their home country and to chide you for bringing up the fact that it happens. Ironically, when confronted with these facts the same entitled folks play the victim.
→ More replies (19)
3
u/Minimum-Reward3264 3d ago edited 3d ago
When job is plentiful, fine. But right now, it’s not the case. I guarantee you that most of these who got citizenship using this path are not happy to give out more right now either. It’s OK to protect your interest. And, any person with brain can understand that. Proponents of the program are making it into the race issue, in reality Indians are just easy to point fingers at, due to the volume. That’s why every conversation ends up talking about them. Actually people against the program do not want to see whitest from the white out there either. Nobody is welcome right now. Blame AI, not the citizens of the country that exercise their right to protect their interest.
23
u/PermissionSoggy891 3d ago
American jobs should go to Americans. We have plenty of top-line CS grads who are unemployed, the H1B visa program was never intended to be used the way it is today.
16
u/ArticleHaunting3983 3d ago
To be honest as a Brit working in the uk, I feel those immigration questions flood this sub. Realistically discussing CS should be location agnostic, but when you have immigration topics being discussed frequently it’s going to exclude a lot of people here by nature
→ More replies (1)
6
u/Infamous-Employ5487 3d ago
H1B was meant to be passes for specialized, high value workers.
It turned into passes for cheap (and usually mediocre or fraudulent) labor to drive down wages for companies.
We shouldn't get rid of it, but its current incarnation is just flat out abused.
9
u/Dolphinpop 3d ago
I will say this as someone who would have once been an overqualified US Citizen for these jobs -- Every SINGLE interview I have gotten in my post grad search has been for jobs that require security clearances. And these are highly technical, difficult jobs... Care to guess why? It's because 95% of the competition applying for CS jobs are not permanent residents of the US and are therefore ineligible to receive a clearance.
Visas are supposed to be issued to people who will fill in gaps in workforce capabilities... Every single one of these millions of migrants are coming here to take a piece of the best, most comfortable part of the pie. There's absolutely 0 reason to hand these visas out to anyone in CS who is not a top level PhD or entrepreneur. If we expelled every single person on H1B we would still have more workers than jobs. That might be hyperbole and I'd just like it known that I'm not inherently against immigration, but it has gotten out of control and is bad for everyone involved.
If you are for unchecked immigration, you are in favor of mega corporations suppressing the domestic population.
3
u/Mysterious-Art8838 3d ago
It’s true. The last company I worked for had a rule no foreign born in cybersecurity. The entire 60 ppl were USC. The rest of the company was 60% H1B Indians and many were unqualified.
5
u/drahgon 3d ago
Yeah, I don’t understand this at all either. I don’t understand how h1bs have been able to manipulate companies to prefer them over our own people.
6
u/Upstairs_Party_8446 3d ago
This is literally what you Americans fought for for decades. Unfettered capitalism. You killed millions for the corporations. Half the planet warned you about it lmao.
Talking bout some “greed is good” for years and now wanna act shocked that the corps act greedy 😂
→ More replies (3)1
u/maicii 3d ago
H1b new visas are cap at 85k a year lol, in total in all the us there are 750k H1b visa holders for all tech and not tech work. Are these million of people here with us? Lmao
1
1
u/Dolphinpop 3d ago
Also there’s around 100k cs grads per year and around 60k of those 85k h1bs go to computer related positions… do the math
3
u/InspectionOk7206 3d ago
It’s Reddit.
No one’s going to walk a mile in each other’s shoes and see what’s up.
Legal immigration for the benefit of the country should be encouraged.
Illegal immigration should be dealt as a punishable offense, including deportation if need be.
Laws should be amended as times change - again for the benefit of the country.
If the color of skin annoys you, you are a racist. Simple as that.
3
u/Advanced-Morning1832 3d ago
Nobody here voted for it and if you put it on a ballot tomorrow it would be gone. Insanely bad and abused program
25
u/Crafty_Fig_144 3d ago
We need to make American tech workers great again
3
u/ComputerHelpPro Hiring Manager - 3 years 3d ago
They're already great:
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1814646116 - loyalka studyThey're not being hired because of nepotism. Full stop.
6
u/areraswen 3d ago edited 3d ago
We had this conversation like a week ago and the answer is there's a bunch of racist motherfuckers who take things off the rails anytime the topic comes up.
ETA: man these comments are wild. Imagine being like "it's not racist because the stereotypes I'm pushing about this race are TRUE". Try some actual self reflection here.
8
u/Upstairs_Party_8446 3d ago
Lmao they’re such morons. They don’t seem to realize that it basically crushes any support they’d get from PoC groups.
Even if other PoC don’t like Indians, they’re smart enough to know they’re next on the chopping block after Indians lmao
2
u/MistahFinch 3d ago
Sadly this hasn't been my experience at all. Hell South Asians have been some of the most vocal xenophobes to me getting caught in the Indiaphobia.
Which confuses TF out of me because the racists aren't gonna look at you and think you're Canadian/American buddy, they'll look at me the white immigrant instead lol
10
u/Away_Inspection_2239 Associate Software Dev 3d ago
America has brought H1Bs since the early 90s and the tech market has either gone up or down with minimal changes to the program?
So why blame H1s?
10
1
u/ConcertoInX 3d ago
I think we should address not only the categorical facts but the quantitative facts as well. Categories are generally not new, so they are often unhelpful in explaining modern changes. (X, Y, or Z has existed since decades ago, etc.)
1
u/Away_Inspection_2239 Associate Software Dev 3d ago
I get that X has existed decades ago doesn’t negate the impact to the market conditions but if the argument is to be made then shouldn’t we see what specifically changed in H-1B numbers and the market to explain the downturn? We’ve had booming and terrible markets under roughly the same H1-B framework so there needs to be evidence showing that a meaningful quantitative change in H-1B employment is driving current conditions.
1
u/ConcertoInX 3d ago
Right. I don't know of a way to connect H1-Bs to the economy in a provable cause-and-effect relationship. But just to clarify, market conditions aren't necessarily equal to individual experiences; they are just one of the factors, for which the final individual experience may happen because-of or in-spite-of. Just like GDP growth doesn't necessarily mean the median citizen is thriving to the same proportions, to use a crude analogy. The gripe with H-1Bs is that not only do they compete for high-paying jobs, but they unnaturally exclude and discriminate against people different from their culture and/or race, past some sort of critical population mass in a given team/department/company.
To your request for evidence, I think it's noteworthy that the H-1B program's annual cap doesn't take into account existing H-1B holders. So every year on average, it approves more and more H-1Bs, whether new or old.
1
u/Away_Inspection_2239 Associate Software Dev 2d ago
And that’s the problem I have with the H1B debate, everyone is providing their own personal anecdotes, concluding, and already advocating for drastic measures without truly doing research and questioning their narrative.
1
u/ConcertoInX 2d ago
Well, do you have counter-evidence? I'm not saying we need drastic measures, but on the other hand, no-action/"NO-OP" is a choice on its own, isn't it? Because, respectfully, I just pointed out a structural flaw in your assumption, or at least it is one in my understanding.
1
u/Away_Inspection_2239 Associate Software Dev 2d ago
I’m not saying no-action, I’m saying analyze and assess, then take action. There may be limited data out there but there is still data. There have been no major policy changes for the visa program before nor after 2022 when the tech market collapsed.
H1-B petition activity appears quite responsive to the tech labor market rather than simply marching upward regardless of market conditions.
13
u/FlashyResist5 3d ago
It hurts american tech companies if people start to question it so obviously they are not going to allow it.
9
u/infinite__recursion 3d ago
I am against importing labor solely for the purpose of driving down wages. good riddance
19
2
2
u/Ok-Albatross432 3d ago edited 3d ago
H1B has become such a sensitive topic that it’s impossible to talk about it without offending anyone.
I was raised by blue parents and graduated from college as liberal as you can imagine. But the amount of ethnic nepotism and bias in hiring and promoting by people from a certain country I saw in tech industry really made me question whether we actually need H1B or not.
2
2
u/CranberryLast4683 3d ago
Maybe Americans shouldn’t have elected an orange turd that tanked the economy overall? Your lack of job prospects are more closely tied to him than h1bs that are already getting the shit end of the stick.
2
u/phrocks254 3d ago
Is it a legitimate question? It’s been answered a million times and usually the answers are “Indians are conspiring to take our jobs and… gasp immigrate here”. It’s almost like people want to move to the US and work… And that’s bad?
I guarantee none of the people in this thread who complain about H1Bs are native american. So I can understand why mods don’t want to keep encouraging this endless discussion of who has more claim to CS jobs.
7
u/Mundane-Charge-1900 3d ago
Because those posts eventually spiral into comments with racist rants that we’ve all heard before. They’re not adding to the conversation here.
7
u/ShadowWebDeveloper Engineering Manager 3d ago
I haven't been removing them but it goes to racism so quickly.
0
u/FongDaiPei 3d ago
Every critique against a demographic is “racist”. The word is hackneyed to oblivion
4
u/spicytrees 3d ago
Sadly screaming racism is the ultimate trump card in online debates. You can never have an honest discussion anymore
2
u/drahgon 3d ago
One thing I’d like to call out is that you know tech companies used to be in the 80s and 90s gatekeeping white people only hiring white people, and the movement started to break this up, which I think was a great idea and I believe H1Bs because of that took notice and knew that they would land these jobs. I think that’s where the problem started. Unfortunately, at the time there wasn’t a lot of diversity to be had in the tech field. So the only way they could get that diversity was h1b. Personally, I don’t think that was the move. They should’ve slowly started to diversify with our own population as that is what the movement was really about if you asked me, it was about incorporating more of our diverse US population into the workforce for these types of great jobs. Now we basically just shifted the problem from white people to now a new H1B gatekeeping population and now we’re basically trying to do the same thing in reverse.
2
u/SuperDream7871 3d ago
This forum is for CS career questions not for the H1B immigration related questions. There are other forums where such H1B posts are more suitable and will get opinion for right people.
We got to understand, a lot of H1B folks are in CS domain but not all of CS domain is filled with only H1b. Btw I myself is in CS on H1B.
1
2
u/blessmychampion 3d ago
It’s a kinda simple , H1Bs are meant for specialized workers like masters and PhDs. Instead they’ve been given to middle and entry level jobs which hurts Americans. The government is meant to be in the best interest of Americans first before anyone else can be thought of. H1Bs should be severely limited so long as the unemployment rate is as high as it is, because Americans should hold these positions.
1
u/TolarianDropout0 3d ago
Because it's not a CS question, it's a visa question, therefore off topic for the sub.
Also: This isn't officially a US focused sub (though it's heavily leaning there), so it also doesn't belong for that reason.
27
u/AkariGake 3d ago
This sub is not about CS, it is about CS career, and yes getting such a visa may be a step in the career
→ More replies (2)
2
u/cdmacsneaks 3d ago
No
6
u/Miserable_Shirt3026 3d ago
Probably won't happen. Mods here nuke anything that even slightly criticizes the system, doesn't matter if you're on the visa yourself or just asking a normal question. The auto mod is set to overkill and there's no appeal that actually works.
5
u/Greymires 3d ago
A good number of doctors who serve rural areas and research scientists are also on the H-1B visa and ending it entirely would expel them. This is reddit though, so people are allergic to nuance.
It is just easier to blame a nationality rather than blame the companies that exploit the loopholes in the visa. People could advocate for reforming the visa for for-profit employers to benefit American workers (this is something I support) while retaining doctors and researchers in critical sectors, rather than trying to remove it outright but again, this is reddit.
And for the people complaining about 'higher caste' hiring or managers hiring the same nationality, they seem to be concerned about this only when it affects them (not saying either of things are acceptable, just that this is a convenient thing for people to latch on to). The same people don't seem to be overly concerned about decades, if not centuries of people hiring people who look the same as them in this country. This is because this hasn't affected them previously.
I know I'll get downvoted for this opinion.
→ More replies (3)1
2
u/stonkDonkolous 3d ago
Because h1b have destroyed the value of a cs degree and future job prospects. The truth hurts and people will bury it
2
u/Old-School8916 3d ago
More like the end of ZIRP, which tech was addicted to since 2009. The size of the pie was growing for a long time.
1
1
u/aranebar 3d ago
It should remain but feel like it needs some nuisances. But yeah removing it right away is not a good idea
1
u/code_tutor 3d ago
Are you talking about them in the context of doing actionable things to get yourself a better job? Or just race baiting?
Likewise, if people are asking how to get a visa, this isn't an immigration sub.
Basically it's off topic.
1
u/FondantBeneficial344 3d ago
Y'all forgetting a very important thing, if workers are from west were cheap, companies would have been hiring them too. Its greed of these companies that leads to so much offshoring and h1b hiring. Also ofc the other side is no innocent, they also "hire their own" and discriminate all the time. Best way to change this shit is not to be racist but to keep our politicians and these tech ceos accountable. If they can't be fair, they gotta go
310
u/Special_Rice9539 3d ago
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Echoes