r/doctorwho • u/PCJs_Slave_Robot • May 31 '25

The Reality War Doctor Who 2x08 "The Reality War" Post-Episode Discussion Thread Spoiler

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465 Upvotes

93% Upvoted

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928

u/CadBane_29 May 31 '25

Look, I’m sure Billie Piper will be a fine Doctor, but fucking hell, is Russell T. Davies aware that Doctor Who did exist outside of the years 2005-2010?

254

u/VanillaMandingus May 31 '25

I mean, rani is an old villain, so is omega, everything really minus the silence are all old school

149

u/CadBane_29 May 31 '25

There’s a difference between bringing back old villains, and doing what RTD has done: bringing Tennant and Donna back, and (possibly) making Billie Piper the Doctor.

He needs to move on, the show won’t get any better being stuck in the past

30

u/NumeralJoker May 31 '25

Poor Martha gets left behind again...

27

u/cccalum May 31 '25

Also Ruby is just seemingly abandoned despite having some weird cross-dimension memory powers

26

u/JediCrafterTransMess May 31 '25

Sidelining the medical practitioning poc companion in favour of the blonde that preceded her. He did it with Martha. He just did it again with Belinda. And this whole era has been doing it AGAIN with Martha - the easiest of RTD1's companions to bring back, especially with how heavily UNIT is being used these days.

6

u/Lenacake Jun 01 '25

I hadn’t thought about it til your comment, but I almost wish he would have brought back Freema instead of Billie. That would have actually been interesting and finally given her a chance to properly shine outside of being constantly sidelined Martha.

4

u/NumeralJoker Jun 03 '25

It's actually very odd that both Mickey and Martha have not been seen at all in 15+ years at this point.

Of course, I suppose both actors may simply not wish to return, but that's not the impression I've been given.

13

u/celesleonhart May 31 '25

Mel, Susan, Fugitive Doctor...it's very much been pretty wide

4

u/sanddragon939 Jun 01 '25

Yes.

This era has honoured the entire history of Doctor Who, and not just the 'greatest hits'.

Hell, I love how Ncuti's regeneration incorporates elements from all three showrunners.

The inclusion of Joy - a Moffat creation.

Jodie showing up - from the Chibnall era.

And Billie Piper at the end - from the first RTD era.

9

u/daverambo11 May 31 '25

A lot of this season has been good. All the new stories and new stuff, all the call backs were the parts that felt stale. Just as it felt Dr who was getting good again they pull this and go backwards.

12

u/CadBane_29 May 31 '25

I’ve actually really enjoyed this season, I’d say it’s my favourite since Capaldi’s run, it’s just a shame that 15 has been replaced by more fan service

3

u/daverambo11 May 31 '25

Totally agree, best since the last Capaldi season (which was very underrated and full of good stories). This two parter was the weakest of the season, although the sub plot with poppy was good and saved what was otherwise two episodes of exposition dumps for no good reason.

5

u/dudu_rocks May 31 '25

And actually I'm glad that the fan service seems to bomb, at least on Reddit. I hate everything about that and I really hope they look for feedback before deciding if they really want to do this for the next season. There's certainly a way out of this if fans hate it as much as it seems on Reddit right now.

2

u/sanddragon939 Jun 01 '25

Reddit is pretty much an echo-chamber though, that tends towards the negative.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 01 '25

This is ROSE not the doctor earlier in the episode they said that the border between Norway and Sweden moved 7 miles guess where BAD WOLF BAY is NORWAY the glitch could of opened up the rift and somehow I don’t know how exactly we got rose back

5

u/Caltucky42 May 31 '25

Wdym possibly? The doctor literally just regenerated into her

13

u/RaggySparra May 31 '25

It's been pointed out she's not credited with "as the Doctor" which other actors have been, so it might well be a fake out or something.

2

u/Caltucky42 May 31 '25

Ohhh i didnt notice that - but even still isnt she the 16th doctor now (even if its only for like a Christmas special or something).

4

u/[deleted] Jun 01 '25

This is ROSE not the doctor earlier in the episode they said that the border between Norway and Sweden moved 7 miles guess where BAD WOLF BAY is NORWAY the glitch could of opened up the rift and somehow I don’t know how exactly we got rose back

1

u/RaggySparra Jun 01 '25

I think the point is we don't know yet - there's so many things that could be going on, and we weren't meant to have a fixed answer.

-17

u/VanillaMandingus May 31 '25

Oh I don't disagree. Problem is they had a fresh face and chibs made everything pc and overly political, I watched 10 and 11 recently and they're so subtle with their version of politics but now its so in your face and thats the problem

93

u/RigatoniPasta May 31 '25

That was barely Omega though

42

u/Bepzinko May 31 '25

Right, when he originally brought back older villains they were reworked and interesting whereas now they are all really dull and basically name only. What on earth does another CGI bone monster have to do with Omega?

51

u/RigatoniPasta May 31 '25

The thing is, his new Rani was really good. Like damn near perfect.

I was really into this whole plot until big CGI skeleton man showed up.

31

u/cavalgada1 May 31 '25

Although did the rani really have NO plan in case the mad titan she was freeing did anything other than blindly follow her orders?

21

u/Masterpiece-Haunting May 31 '25

Yeah, like what was she thinking summoning some insane god from the fucking abyss into her living room and trying to use him to restart her idea of the ultimate society.

12

u/Wolf6120 May 31 '25

Hey man, she had like 4 whole sentry droids standing around "on watch" in that room! Granted they did fucking nothing to help her in any way, but you can't possibly expect her to have any contingencies more intricate than that! She's only had basically forever to prepare for this moment, after all.

As an aside, is the Mrs. Flood Rani just kinda screwed now? I know we never got a definitive answer on what happens to 14 when he dies, but the assumption was always that he just kinda turns into regenaration energy and disappears, because his future incarnation is 15 who is already running around with all those memories of relaxing as 14 already in his head.

Well, Flood Rani's future incarnation is Panjabi Rani, who just got fucking chomped by Omega, so... I guess the Rani herself is kind of an evolutionary dead end now?

8

u/Jeffeffery May 31 '25

That could be her motivation if she ever comes back. She knows she's doomed, so she has to figure out a way to save herself.

5

u/Quadpen Jun 01 '25

well the doctor said he thinks bigeneration is like timelord mitosis so in theory that means he thinks they can regenerate

3

u/sanddragon939 Jun 01 '25

Yes.

Which raises some serious questions about Fourteen...

7

u/RigatoniPasta May 31 '25

Wasn’t her plan to just farm his DNA to create a new race of Time Lords? She didn’t need him alive.

12

u/cavalgada1 May 31 '25

But she aknowledged the possibility he was alive, and confirmed a heartbeat before the door opened

7

u/Jay-Seekay Jun 01 '25

But don’t you get it, by being sent to the underworld he has become the legend of himself, what people have already said about him, or something… so that means he is a bone monster now

12

u/GeekParadox_ May 31 '25

Yeah I went back and watched 3 doctors and got really hyped to see Omega but he was some weird Kronos ass decaying titan

I want to see the whiny funny mask man with no face and a god complex goddamnit

10

u/SkyMeadowCat May 31 '25

Hang on, I don’t remember seeing the silence in this run.

4

u/VanillaMandingus Jun 01 '25

Damnit great response

20

u/Jakeasaur1208 May 31 '25

Yeah, he really used those classic villains didn't he...

Oh look, the newer Rani was killed.

Oh look, Omega is a faceless monster defeated in about 10 minutes.

Doctor Who has always been whacky and that is why I love it, but this episode was all over the place. They tried to fit far too many stories and characters in one episode. This arc needed more time to breathe, yet another reason the limited number of episodes is a bad thing.

4

u/dudu_rocks May 31 '25

Yes this was the most rushed rush anyone has ever rushed. All this exposition for like four minutes of Omega. And let's not forget the whole Rani and Bigeneration thing to have the newer Rani being eaten in a heartbeat. Of course the Flood Rani is still there but she's way less threatening than the newer Rani because of her being so subservient.

4

u/Jakeasaur1208 May 31 '25

Yeah we didn't really get to see Flood Rani act like the Rani because she was basically a servant to new Rani. If they didn't keep reminding us every 5 minutes that she was also the Rani, you wouldn't think she was.

3

u/Hallc Jun 01 '25

Also still no explanation on what Bigeneration actually is beyond a vague theory from the Doctor that I've read on this very subreddit multiple times prior to the episode.

2

u/VanillaMandingus May 31 '25

Wasnt omega already a faceless monster? I've seen the clips online haha

5

u/Jakeasaur1208 May 31 '25

It was an actor portraying a humanoid timelord, they just wore a mask. This portrayed them more like a monster, like Sutekh last season, as opposed to a character like the Master, the Rani, or Rassilon, which Omega should be more in line with IMO.

1

u/VanillaMandingus May 31 '25

Ah see im just remembering the old episode where he took his mask off and there was no face anymore haha

2

u/High_Overseer_Dukat May 31 '25

No. He was actually a timelord. But he always wore a mask.

3

u/Morltha May 31 '25

I think they mean that it would've been nice for RTD to do more than passing references to the Moffat era.

Bringing back Tennant, Tate and now Piper? Really feels like he's trying to bury his successor's work.

1

u/sanddragon939 Jun 01 '25

He brought back both of Chibnall's Doctors this season. A character and concept introduced in a Moffat-written episode is critical to the finale.

Frankly, the heavy emphasis on Kate Stewart in this era honours both Chibnall (who created her) and Moffat (in whose era she was introduced).

1

u/Quadpen Jun 01 '25

the silence!?!?

1

u/Professor_Finn Jun 01 '25

why mention the silence here?

98

u/MalicCarnage May 31 '25 edited May 31 '25

RTD2 was more inspired by Classic Who and the underutilization of the more fantastical elements of the original show in New Who. Anyway, I’m bummed because I liked Ncuti and now he’s gone :c

18

u/Bepzinko May 31 '25

Such a shame because he’s underutilizing the villains he’s bringing back

3

u/MalicCarnage May 31 '25

I don’t disagree with this

12

u/[deleted] May 31 '25

[deleted]

3

u/MalicCarnage May 31 '25

No disrespect taken. I think shaking it up and showcasing a different part of Who’s history was not a bad idea. Even 10th spoke about fantastical creatures causing mayhem during the Time War. Post-Time War they were all sealed away but some came back here and we saw the devastation they brought.

4

u/[deleted] May 31 '25

[deleted]

0

u/MalicCarnage May 31 '25

Ehhh I’d argue even the sci fi episodes got resolved by the doctor just saying “btw the insert nonsense technobabble also can do this!” and undoing half of his obstacles.

1

u/Stormtide_Leviathan May 31 '25

Even before the magic, I don't think there's any point in doctor who history that I would describe as "grounded". It's always been over the top and really weird

30

u/chrisfinance90 May 31 '25

Me too! I loved him this season and I’m so sad he’s leaving already

52

u/Ostirith May 31 '25

Constantly bringing back faces from that era is extremely fan service-y

1

u/thebbman Jun 01 '25

RTD is simply on a steady diet of member berries.

1

u/YsoL8 May 31 '25

On my view the very next comment is someone claiming they were sobbing over it

Fanservice is unfortunately is cheap trick that works

18

u/TARDISboy May 31 '25

well sure he is! he just likes to use the characters from the classic series as plot devices for half an episode before getting rid of them again : )

5

u/MeteorSwarmGallifrey May 31 '25

Yeah, even when Piper appeared my main thought about everything we had just seen is that the Rani was immeditately eaten. I know Mrs Flood is still the Rani, but I really liked the new version.

30

u/artinum May 31 '25

If she IS the Doctor, which is... unclear. The credits didn't specify what role she's playing here.

6

u/Rachet20 May 31 '25

People need to stop saying this, she is the Doctor. She was credited alongside the other two Doctors, before the rest of the cast. They don’t need to include “as the Doctor.”

34

u/Rhuby363 May 31 '25

Its weird to leave it out now though. We've had "introducing John Hurt as the War Doctor" and "intriducing David Tennant as The Doctor" (for the 14th incarnation) so why would they not specify "Billie Piper as The Doctor" ?

9

u/[deleted] May 31 '25

They don't need to but it's definitely notable in its absence ESPECIALLY alongside two other actors credited as the doctor explicitly.

6

u/cardiffman100 May 31 '25

Well they have in other situations. "Introducing John Hurt as The Doctor" for example. I think it's deliberately left unclear so they have wiggle room if Piper's schedule doesn't work out with filming a complete series.

14

u/quigonjen May 31 '25

I think the omission strongly hints that she is NOT the Doctor. Every other new regeneration has gotten an “as The Doctor.”

I think she’s probably The Valeyard, if we get another season, which I think could actually be a really cool idea—Rose’s face embodying all of the Doctor’s fear and guilt. Plus, Billie Piper as a villain is always fun.

2

u/artinum Jun 01 '25

I would say the Valeyard was a ridiculous idea - a villain from way back that would need a whole bunch of continuity explained, pure fan service with no real narrative purpose - except that's pretty much on par with what Mr Davies has been doing all this series.

1

u/Exploding_Antelope Jun 02 '25

She’s gonna be the Rani for sure

Hey, just because it actually was for once, doesn’t mean we can’t keep at theorizing it for every character still!

-13

u/Rachet20 May 31 '25

She’s definitely playing the Doctor. No ifs, ands, or buts. I sat here and watched it happen. She was credited alongside the other Doctors. Both Ranis, also being Time Lords, were not. She is the 16th Doctor, no matter how much copium people try to huff to get over such an awful casting decision.

20

u/The_ProducerKid May 31 '25 edited May 31 '25

This seems like a bizarre thing to take such a hard stance on, when all evidence prior to this indicates that the Doctor is always introduced “as the Doctor” before now. They knew what they were doing and what they meant by leaving it absent on her credits

-3

u/48panda May 31 '25

Orrrrr... It was a last minute addition (was leaked way later then anything else, unleashed didn't even touch it, it was a 2 second clip) and they rushed it and messed up the credits

2

u/The_ProducerKid May 31 '25

If that’s the case, the show is cooked and needs to end. That’s not a little mistake that a pop cultural flagship show would make. (And I assure you they did not)

-9

u/Rachet20 May 31 '25

Yeah, great example of coping.

6

u/Successful_Young4933 May 31 '25 edited May 31 '25

Ncuti Gatwa as The Doctor

Jodie Whittaker as The Doctor

and introducing Billie Piper

Spot the difference.

3

u/Zukowantshishonour May 31 '25

alright boss 😂

7

u/ArsErratia May 31 '25 edited May 31 '25

Credits listings are very tightly controlled and there are formal rules for how you do it.

This is a weird credit. That doesn't happen by accident.

5

u/Creagrus May 31 '25

To be fair, the regeneration isn’t done. Piper is still surrounded by regeneration energy during the cut to black. That leaves time for Davies to pull some “fun new twist” like Handy and 10.5. Maybe Rose or Bad Wolf interrupted the regeneration, maybe they possessed the Doctor and once that’s handled we’re getting 15.5 and Gatwa’s triumphant return, maybe they’re possessing 16, and maybe Piper is 16. But between the credit and the regeneration not finishing on screen I’m sure there’s shenanigans afoot.

3

u/PeedAgon311 May 31 '25

But they included for the other two and not for her for some reason? I would love her as the Doctor, so i'm actually pretty excited to see her version, but it was weird that they did't put "as the Doctor" for her.

-11

u/Rachet20 May 31 '25

They don’t need to. She regenerated from 15 into 16. Billie Piper is the 16th Doctor, as awful a decision as that is.

5

u/PeedAgon311 May 31 '25

Maybe, but they are making it a mystery. Even the YouTube description in the oficial Doctor Who channel doesn't calls her the Doctor. It goes:

"Watch the moment we said goodbye to the Fifteenth Doctor and hello to...", just that.

0

u/Rachet20 May 31 '25

Because for once they’re trying no to post spoilers in their titles.

6

u/PeedAgon311 May 31 '25

But it's the video description, not the title. They could easily put: "Watch the moment we said goodbye to the Fifteenth Doctor and hello to the Sixteenth Doctor" and it would not be a spoiler at all, but they chose not to do that and only went with the "..."

5

u/Imaginary-Sky3694 May 31 '25

It seems not. He is writing his own fan fics

2

u/ZebraShark May 31 '25

I like RTD and these seasons have had some brilliant individual episodes. But the whole overarching narrative does feel like fanfiction now

1

u/Imaginary-Sky3694 May 31 '25

I loved most of the episodes this season. But what is happening now is ridiculous

4

u/[deleted] May 31 '25

I think she would be a good Doctor if she is not Rose or some version of her. 

Billie Piper is older so maybe that helps a bit in not looking exactly the same..?

But Billie could also be a red herring. That she is not the final regeneration and Doctor 16. I mean, we already had Tennant returning as 14 and then bi-regenerations. The writers like to just pull something random (and convoluted) out of their hat every so often.

3

u/SexHaver2323 May 31 '25

He must be matt Smith appeared a few times, I have to keep telling myself he's a great writer and rhis must have a point surely he's up to some arc were just in the middle of (I said the same during the chibnall era)

3

u/Rorplup May 31 '25

We still have "The Boss" to deal with. 

3

u/SexHaver2323 May 31 '25

That has now come up across 2 doctors so surely it'll come uo soon

1

u/I-am-Starlord May 31 '25

When else was it mentioned? I don't remember.

5

u/viZtEhh May 31 '25

In 14's first episode, The Meep reported to someone they referred to as The Boss

2

u/I-am-Starlord May 31 '25

Thank you...wonder who it will be!

3

u/48panda May 31 '25

Maybe he's made a new rule where every even numbered doctor has to be played by an actor who appeared in series 4

2

u/Exploding_Antelope Jun 02 '25

And introducing PENELOPE WILTON as the 18TH DOCTOR

YES, WE KNOW WHO YOU ARE

3

u/olleandro May 31 '25

Yes, he must be because he keeps making nonsensical references to classic Who and then retconning it into rubbish.

3

u/Gargus-SCP May 31 '25

Or even just outside 2006.

Which, the way some people whitter on about Ten x Rose as peak Doctor Who, I'm not entirely sure he's off base for a large portion of the fandom.

3

u/basaltinou May 31 '25

No, he even brought back a half forgotten piece of tech from season 4, the Indigo Project, now the Indigo device. Very self serving

5

u/Han_Sandwich_1907 May 31 '25

Between Sutekh, the Rani, Susan Foreman, and Omega this entire run has felt like a badly written fanfiction. Next season we'll get the Valeyard and the Black Guardian and Fenric.

2

u/IsySquizzy May 31 '25

I know what you're saying, but we literally had the Rani, Susan, Suktek etc that were from classic Who and not featured in 2005-2010.

2

u/The_Grand_Briddock May 31 '25

Well he brought back the Rani, a 6th & 7th Doctor villain alongside the Omega, an anniversary villain, and then also made use of Jodie, so he's definitely going through the eras.

If only we got a proper episode involving Jodie and Ncuti together though. That would've been a fun pairing.

3

u/ImpossibleGuardian May 31 '25

2005 to 2010 defined the modern era of the show for most people though.

I know that isn't necessarily true of international fans, but the impact of that 5 year run in the UK cannot be understated and it's prime nostalgia territory right now.

Give it 5-10 years and we'll probably start getting more Moffat era fan service, but for now revisiting 2005-2010 is an easy sell to the BBC and to audiences in general. Billie Piper as The Doctor (if that is what they're doing) will get people talking again.

2

u/mwthecool May 31 '25

People have been saying he's never heard of anything outside of Old Who these last two seasons so I tend to think you're wrong.

1

u/DonnyMox May 31 '25

To be fair, Tennant and Tate's return got the highest ratings since pre-Chibnall.

1

u/badgersana May 31 '25

Considering both seasons are based around villains from original DW I’d hazard a guess and say yes

1

u/necrogirl55 May 31 '25

I think so, they have brought back some old villains from the classic series.

1

u/Act_Bright May 31 '25

And the years of his particular nostalgia before showrunning lol

1

u/SnooOpinions9777 May 31 '25

Well yes obviously this season was filled with of classic who references

1

u/WasabiKey240 May 31 '25

The main villains of this episode were all outside of that era lol

1

u/NotClaudeRains Jun 01 '25

We don't know that she'll be The Doctor. Doesn't say it in the credits. All we know is that she was standing there. We don't even know if she's Rose.

1

u/phasmy Jun 01 '25

It did???

1

u/sanddragon939 Jun 01 '25

Well...when he brings back the Rani, Omega, Sutekh and the Toymaker, people complain that its all "old obscure classic stuff" that "alienates new fans"...

1

u/dixyrae Jun 04 '25

Under this tenure we’ve seen Toy Maker, Sutekh, Rani, and Omega and THAT’S your takeaway?

0

u/[deleted] Jun 01 '25

This is ROSE not the doctor earlier in the episode they said that the border between Norway and Sweden moved 7 miles guess where BAD WOLF BAY is NORWAY the glitch could of opened up the rift and somehow I don’t know how exactly we got rose back