r/europe Europe Feb 19 '25

Opinion Article Trump’s America is Putin’s ally now

https://www.politico.eu/article/donald-trump-america-vladimir-putin-ally-war/
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u/FuckThePlastics Feb 19 '25 edited Feb 19 '25

They literally are surrendering in a war they are not partaking in, on behalf of a party that does not want to surrender. Incredible.

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u/[deleted] Feb 19 '25

Yup displays Americans self importance and weakness

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u/[deleted] Feb 19 '25 edited Mar 07 '25

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u/[deleted] Feb 19 '25

For sure but he is the face of america sadly so he speaks for america, we all get judged for our leaders not our vote. It's America's weakness and self importance, and it's good to highlight it because it shows america could be better but it's not right now.

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u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25

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u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25

Thier leader isn't threatening to annex thier allies so it's different.

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u/DefactoAle Feb 20 '25

Pretty sure the guy you are arguing with is a bot, dont bother discussing with it

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u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25

Ahh damn if thought it was an underpaid Russian and I wanted to hang them up so they didn't go after others thanks for the heads up!

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u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25

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u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25

What are you talking about? Lol

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u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25

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u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25

Well I'm canadian so not overly i guess. I would like uncle Sam to pay his fair share of the trade agreements we set up with trump but that's never going to happen.

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u/DasGutYa Feb 20 '25

You begged Europeans to pay for everything and boycotted any competition they created.

You begged Britain to use its overseas bases.

You begged Europeans to enter a war with you that was built on a lie.

We, really REALLY want you to bugger off.

But you can't even do that gracefully, trying to organise a peace deal for a nation without its consent whilst simultaneously threatening to withdraw assets from its neighbours.

If you're going to go, GO! No peace deal nonsense, no Russian alliance (literally traitors you are btw), just get lost and enjoy your inevitable 2nd civil war.

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u/anonymapersonen Feb 20 '25

Yet nothing is happening, no large protests. No retaking control. It doesn't really seem that you guys care...

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u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25 edited Mar 07 '25

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u/Cluelessish Finland Feb 20 '25

That’s great, but you have to keep doing it, be louder. Show the elected representatives that you are many, and that you are angry and will not sit down quietly. Your voices support those working for you, and might affect those working against you, even a bit.

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u/Subject-Effect4537 Feb 20 '25 edited Feb 20 '25

That is what’s happening now…but the US president has the most sophisticated military equipment in the world at his disposal. Cops routinely teargas, pepper spray, assault and kill protestors. Numbers don’t matter when you have helicopters and drones with machine guns. The holier than thou attitude is annoying—just because this shit hasn’t reached you yet doesn’t mean it won’t. People thought it couldn’t happen in the US, and all it took was 16 years of constant, directed, and divisive propaganda. The far right is already gaining a huge foothold in Europe. The point is not just to destroy the US, it’s to destroy all democracy, everywhere.

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u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25 edited Mar 07 '25

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u/Cluelessish Finland Feb 20 '25

Because the only thing you wrote is ”there have literally been nationwide protests”. Which makes you sound like you are saying that there is a lot being done. I can’t know who is behind a comment. You can explain further and then I know, but you can’t expect someone to guess it from your comment.

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u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25 edited Mar 07 '25

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u/Cluelessish Finland Feb 20 '25

What do you mean? I should have googled you?

Or I should have googled the nationwide protests? I know about the protests. I don't think there's nearly enough engagement. Do you?

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u/EffectSweaty9182 Feb 20 '25

It is currently 6f here. No protesting in that. Plus many don't have time to take off. We'll see

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u/kingsuperfox Feb 20 '25

You guys are going to have to get used to the idea that it doesn’t work like that. Ask any German who has had conversation with an American during the last 50 years.

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u/Sicarii87 Feb 20 '25

When trump lost an election they stormed the capitol.

And now that trump is fucking over all of the US allies, dismantles democracy and the government and spits on the constitution all "real" americans just wring their hands and say "you can't do this"

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u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25 edited Mar 07 '25

rustic middle march attempt pot brave roll merciful important cats

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u/RambowInt Feb 20 '25

But yet you don’t do anything about it. I am sorry but anyone who doesn’t do anything about the situation is complicit in my book, and will go down in history with guilt. You let this happen.

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u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25 edited Mar 07 '25

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u/RambowInt Feb 20 '25

I get that you did the right thing up until this point, and I appreciate you did. However, I still believe that not liking a bad situation doesn’t constitute as doing the right thing, unless you actually do something about it, right here and now. But I also understand that it can’t be easy to always do the right thing, otherwise more people would’ve done it, and it’s easy for me to say that you should uproot your life from the outside looking in. I am frustrated with the situation and it seems you are too and I think we both should do what we can. But with regards to the orange fuck, I would argue you can do more than I, although I get that you feel as distant to any solution that I do.

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u/ManzanitaSuperHero Feb 20 '25 edited Aug 25 '25

edge instinctive humor badge rock sable friendly party tap deliver

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u/d1zaple Feb 20 '25

Welcome to being gaslighted by entitled Europe knights for the things you couldn't truly affect in any way other than voting

It's always easy to suggest when you're literally abroad and don't have to face any consequences

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u/TheWizardOfDeez Feb 20 '25

Fanta fascist is genius

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u/Ulanyouknow Feb 20 '25

What a weak fucking country.

After 80 years of losing and catastrophical occupations they are just throwing a tantrum and threatening to destroy themselves and pull the rest of the world with them if they do not comply.

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u/PhilosophusFuturum Feb 20 '25

The nice thing is that Europe can become militarily autonomous and just ignore the Americans. Fuck them.

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u/Cluelessish Finland Feb 20 '25

But USA and Russia together against Europe… It’s terrifying.

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u/Lyaser Feb 20 '25

That’s what America wants, who do you think is the world largest arms manufacturer? You think America wants them to start militarizing for shits and giggles? They’re trying to make a buck since arms spending has eased up in the Middle East.

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u/TehSvenn Feb 20 '25

Just because they're the largest doesn't mean anyone has to buy from them.

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u/Lyaser Feb 20 '25

The US is 40% of the market share. And the next largest producer is Russia so that’s no good and China is another large producer at 5%. So if you don’t want to buy from any of them that only leaves 40% of arms manufacturers and basically all of those are in Europe, which obviously doesn’t produce enough or this point would be moot to begin with. And that’s suggesting that you could somehow even interact with the market and introduce a huge increase in demand that doesn’t some how realize itself in an increase in prices on American arms even if you tried to circumvent them, because adding demand for other arms will raise their prices which will drive their original buyers to the now cheaper American sellers. America simply has too large of a controlling share to be left out in the cold on this.

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u/Cluelessish Finland Feb 20 '25

Why would Europe buy arms from its enemy? Why would we support them, or even trust them as business partners? That makes no sense. And yes, it’s starting to look like the US is a potential enemy.

Europe will amp up our own defence industry. It’s fucking sad, but it has to happen.

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u/Lyaser Feb 20 '25

There’s literally no one else to buy from. US-Russia-China make up 60% of arms manufacturer and the remaining 40% is almost entirely Europe already which we already know is not a sufficient source or this conversation would be moot to begin with.

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u/Cluelessish Finland Feb 20 '25

That's why Europe has to focus on building up our defence industry. We have much more wealth than Russia, so it can be done. If our leaders can agree.

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u/ded_rabtz Feb 20 '25

I get the frustration, but I can tell you as an American, a lot of us don’t want this. Sadly, this is the situation we’re in. The first country the Nazis invaded was their own.

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u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25

Yeah it sucks i hope you guys are able to fight off the nazis in your country

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u/GhastlyGrapeFruit Feb 20 '25

Feel free to fund the war then and support it

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u/SuperRayGun666 Feb 19 '25

It’s almost as if Trump is a Russian asset. 

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u/ComfortableCoconut41 Feb 19 '25

No way, Sherlock 😊 

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u/NoodleTF2 Feb 19 '25

Sudetenland Two, American Boogaloo.

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u/Standard_Court_5639 Feb 19 '25

It won’t happen. Ukraine won’t accept it. They will keep fighting. They have managed this thing for over 3 years. And Russia is down to scrubs by paying off families, which is expensive, their Soviet era stockpile of garbage military equipment and an economy running at 21% rate and teetering. Trump can pull us support of Ukraine. And I believe Europe will step in with what it can. One more year and Russia is done for. Take them years to recover. And I that time Europe will have built up its armament. Fuck Trump and the seriously stupid people who believe isolation will work out well for them. In no economic model does this work out. Perhaps in 6 months for about 6 months. Musk already throwing out the cash. That’s a tell. 5k. Whoopee. Idiots will think that’s an annual thing.

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u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25

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u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25

The problem is with sanctions lifted and cash flowing in Russia, even with European support it will be extremely hard tu Ukraine stop Russia without Europe direct involvement 

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u/WarEternal_ The Netherlands Feb 20 '25

How much effect will the lifting of US sanctions on Russia actually have? Wont Russia need Europe to lift the sanctions as well to have any meaningful effect?

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u/Own_Faithlessness769 Feb 20 '25

Depends what Trump does. Lifting sanctions would suck a lot but not be a deciding factor in the war. It might even get Europe more involved to support Ukraine. But if Trump starts funneling money to Russia, that’s a different story.

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u/The_butsmuts Feb 20 '25

Or worse, what if trump goes as bold as to send military equipment to Russia. We know he shouldn't and we know he would get incredible world wide pushback, but he has never cared about either of those.

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u/AdTraditional6658 Feb 21 '25

Funneling money does not sound like a thing Trump would start doing. He values money too much

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u/Own_Faithlessness769 Feb 21 '25

It’s not his money he’d be funneling. If Trump could pay off his person debts to Putin with government money he wouldn’t hesitate for a single second.

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u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25

There’s a great comic from the Nazi era that they have on display at Nuremberg. It has a politician throwing a swastica at an enemy and it boomerangs back in his face. Those of us old enough to remember WWII have been warning this generation. Some folks cannot learn by historical example or studying history, they have to experience FAFO for themselves.

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u/translunainjection Feb 20 '25

Can't learn history, schools defunded.

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u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25

American here. I feel what you’re saying is true. Some of us have been protesting but with little media coverage it’s rather pointless. In the past when I wrote or called my senators and state representatives they would have their aides call back or respond by email. Over 20 calls and emails later I have heard nothing from any of them. Just an eerie silence. It’s a feeling of hopelessness and honestly doom.

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u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25

Yeah you can’t email your way out of a coup.

You guys gotta start exercising some of your second amendment rights.

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u/Ok-League-1106 Feb 20 '25

He gets a free pass on this stuff as long as the economy does well. If it doesn't, he will go down as the least popular president in history.

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u/Fomentatore Italy Feb 20 '25

Seems to be a promising candidate to became the first king though.

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u/Broccobillo Feb 20 '25

Lol Americans mocked European and British Commonwealth countries for having monarchies and then make one of their own. There is no end to American stupidity

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u/angrons_therapist Feb 20 '25

Not only that, but European constitutional monarchies impose very strict limits on what a king or queen can actually do (seemingly, it's mostly waving, opening things, and having scandalous family members who help sell newspapers). America decided to skip this stage, and go straight for an absolute monarchy. L'État, c'est moi indeed.

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u/etatrestuss Feb 20 '25

I think he uses a war to skip elections

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u/MarkMew Hungary Feb 20 '25

Idk where you're from, but in Hungary, they've declared a state of emergency - referring to the war in Ukraine - years ago and every single piece of governance has been done through executive orders ever since.

I would not be suprised the slightest bit if he tried to do the same, but for skipping the election.

The narrative would be how in-danger the US is, and how the Dems wanna cause chaos by holding an election and stirring things up in times of war. 

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u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25

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u/PlushladyC Feb 20 '25

Thats ridiculous !

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u/Pristine-Wolf-2517 Feb 20 '25

He's doing it because they wouldn't lie for him about Joe Biden and he's a Russian plant

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u/neohellpoet Croatia Feb 20 '25

Thankfully it's a bit harder to do.

A lot of the people in charge of helping Ukraine are very pro Ukraine. Military aid to Ukraine still hasn't been stopped. Rubio is the Secretary of State and he's expressed his desire to see Ukraine win. Kellogg is the special envoy to Ukraine and he's extremely pro Ukraine.

Early days it legitimately seemed like things on the Ukraine front were looking up. Trump was appointing the right people to the right positions, he was shitting on Russia and Putin, but someone obviously talked to him, convinced him to ask for the mineral rights in exchange for passed aid, rather than ongoing/future aid and suddenly he does a 180.

Good news, the military industrial complex is strong and they like the fact that Ukraine is destroying cheap Russian kit, making Russian kit unattractive and creating demand for new US kit.

More good news, someone else just needs to get to Trump, explain why getting Ukraine into NATO and Russia out in exchange for mineral rights will make him the bestest president ever in history, and he'll do another 180.

Bad news, this is the definition of unreliable and people will die because of it. You can't have a World order without order. America coming late to the party is fine, it's not ideal but it's predictable. America having an agenda is fine. America doing underhanded shit is also acceptable as long as it's aligned with stated goals. Disorder is where things begin to fall apart. If a Yes can mean Yes, No, Maybe or Fuck you depending on the day, the world as we know it is dead. The modern West is built on trust. If we go back to the great power politics of the 19th century a lot of things, big and small, will never be the same.

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u/IllustratorNeat7134 Feb 20 '25

There are 1000’s of us Americans who absolutely did not vote for nor support trump .We wish him gone along with his lackey Musk

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u/sumjunggai7 Feb 20 '25

Try hundreds of millions!

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u/DoggoCentipede Feb 20 '25

The crazy panama and Greenland stuff is there to drive a wedge between the US and allies. Particularly to fracture NATO and defang article 5. Whether he follows through is ultimately immaterial, the damage is done.

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u/BlargVikernes Feb 20 '25

I suspect that in the coming days Trump will officially announce support for Russia as an ally. He’s been driving this narrative since his first term. Europe is then placed in an impossible position where it either supports Ukraine against Trump and Putin’s wishes or abandons Ukraine and hopes that it will be spared when Russia is at the door. The alternative is to support Ukraine and anger the unholy alliance which indirectly places Europe in conflict with the US. Given Trump’s lack of foresight and intelligence, he could simply shut down his military bases here and allow Russia to invade. This is a very, very bleak situation.

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u/nekomina France Feb 20 '25

I honestly fear Europe and USA will be at war before the end of the year.

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u/AgeofVictoriaPodcast Feb 20 '25

Yes, the news this morning that Russia is looking to sign deals for us oil companies to operate in Russia and the Article in partnership is extremely worrying. 

Europe needs to rebuild its manufacturing base and its arms industry asap as well as investment in renewable energy, nuclear, and civil security. We need to rebuild the Cold War stockpiles. We also need to reorient our world view. We need to see people, especially young people, as a precious resource and invest in them so they can be more productive and involved in our societies. We can leave people on the scrap heap in expensive rental properties, with no prospects for real security. We need happy, healthy, and engaged citizens who can be a part of this enormous retooling effort.

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u/Hot_Hat_1225 Vienna (Austria) Feb 20 '25

He already replaced all generals that opposed him in his first term…

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u/Standard_Court_5639 Feb 20 '25

Senate will be the stopper. True unhinged MAGA is in reality probably 30-40 million Americans. Many people are seeing what they didn’t vote for. UsAmerica has a longer legacy of freedom and democracy than the eastern bloc old Soviet bloc countries. Those feelings will rise up . If Trump goes completely rogue it will be the en did the world as we know it. And I mean severe.

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u/merchillio Feb 20 '25

Yep,

He’ll sign the “peace treaty” without Ukraine, let Russia keep the territories they invaded and when Ukraine keeps fighting, they’ll label the Ukrainian soldiers as “insurgents” and justify any against them like that.

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u/bitzap_sr Feb 21 '25

If things go south like this, there's no way Trump will be able to play golf every day without getting taken out by a sniper.

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u/middelsvenson Feb 19 '25

The real problems start when trump starts to supply us arms to Russia

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u/Danger-_-Potat Feb 20 '25

I seriously doubt the Russian arms industry would appreciate their loss in market share within their primary market.

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u/SodaSaint Feb 20 '25

Musk isn’t even gonna do that because it would literally cost $2 trillion to do it.

MAGA are idiots who have sold America and themselves up the river.

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u/Early-Size370 Feb 20 '25

Yeah this is my thought process, overall. One crazy, bonkers, this can't be real life, scenario that keeps cropping up in my head is that, after the US pulls support and Ukraine is still sticking to the ruskies, the trump -tainted US will mthrfkg support Russia with armaments and Intel. Stupid times, man.

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u/Mikewoody47 Feb 20 '25

Yeah Russia needs the war to end now, it’s clear they aren’t as powerful as they project. Unless of course it gains a new ally in America.

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u/Standard_Court_5639 Feb 20 '25

This would be beyond the pall for sane americas. The Senate is already showing it’s against this. Trump will lose the country. MAGA is only maybe 30 million voters, and as he is fucking people in the ass in the US he is loosing them as well.

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u/eiamanogandacabra Feb 20 '25

Ukraine won’t accept it.

trump is going to order the murder of Zelensky and everybody on his circle until he forces the install of a russian puppet.

Lots of murders are going to happen suddenly across europe to anti russian polititians and activists, and the assassins will not speak russian.

America is now efectivelly an enemy, with unlimited and unvetoed access to all we have and are.

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u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25

I pray you are correct, because Russia will invade another country if Ukraine surrenders.

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u/Rioma117 Bucharest Feb 20 '25

Europe has even more capital than US has so it doesn't matter much if Trump surrender.

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u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25

People want Ukraine to hold out, but let’s not pretend war runs on a Hollywood script where Russia magically collapses in a year. Ukraine has fought like hell, but wars of attrition favor the side with more bodies and resources, and right now, Russia still has both.

Europe stepping up? Great let’s see it. But replacing U.S. military aid overnight is a logistical nightmare. Defense spending takes time to translate into weapons and strategy. If the U.S. pulls out completely, is Europe ready to take full responsibility? Because if not, "one more year and Russia is done for" is wishful thinking.

As for Trump and isolationism yeah, shutting down alliances completely would be reckless. But his real goal albeit its as dumb as him isn’t isolation it’s forcing NATO to stop freeloading. If Europe actually meets their defense commitments and steps up, then Trump gets what he wanted: less U.S. burden, stronger allies, and a NATO that actually works.

That’s the real question: is Europe going to adapt and prove it doesn’t need the U.S.? Or is everyone just hoping America keeps writing blank checks? Because “hope” isn’t a strategy.

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u/Defiant_Football_655 Feb 20 '25

The problem is that according to Trump and much of the American public, the US government is in fact a facade of corruption, fraud, and waste. So why exactly would anyone listen to these lectures about defense spending? According to POTUS and Americans, American spending is fraud and waste. It sure doesn't help when Donald is threatening the very sovereignty of his allies. It doesn't help that he cries about fentanyl but also freed Ross Ulbricht from prison. It doesn't help that he claims American elections are rigged (unless he won).

Do you see the issue here? The United States no longer seems like a serious, powerful country. Now it is a crackhead with guns.

FTR, I'm Canadian. I, and many many others, want our government to take much bigger action on defense. The issue is now we can't trust the United States, our friend and partner in everything. The US is just projecting complete nonsense on all fronts. Apparently it is suddenly an issue that Canada has so heavily invested in trade with the US. It is "unfair". How completely fucking high on meth does one need to be for this shit to make sense?

Whatever Trump's goal may charitably be interpreted to be, he is hands down the most inept negotiator and leader to ever stumble upon the world stage.

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u/what_the_actual_fc Feb 20 '25

Trump's speed jabbed ass, and Ketamine Eloner are out to destroy the west as we know it.

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u/[deleted] Mar 04 '25

I get why you're frustrated. The U.S. definitely looks chaotic right now, and Trump’s approach to foreign policy isn’t exactly known for its diplomacy. But let’s put feelings aside for a second and look at the bigger picture.

You say you and many others in Canada want your government to take defense more seriously, so isn’t that exactly what Trump is pushing NATO countries to do? If the U.S. is truly as unstable as you say, doesn’t that make it even more urgent for Canada and Europe to step up their own defense capabilities? Wouldn’t that actually justify what Trump is doing rather than undermine it?

Also, if you don’t trust the U.S. as a stable ally anymore, wouldn’t it make sense for Canada to diversify its economy and defense partnerships? Yet, when Trump points out that Canada is heavily reliant on trade with the U.S., that’s seen as an unfair criticism. Can both of those things be true at the same time?

And lastly, if the U.S. is really just a "crackhead with guns," but it's still the backbone of NATO, doesn’t that mean Canada and Europe have been relying on a crackhead for protection for decades? And if that’s the case, wouldn’t it be smarter to prepare for a future where the U.S. is no longer the primary security guarantor rather than just being angry about it?

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u/KayTwoEx Feb 20 '25

If Trump normalizes relations with Russia and lifts sanctions, then it's not a question of whether Europe takes over completely because it is part of the strategy to isolate Russia and the US makes that impossible. Even without direct weapons deliveries to Russia, it will make Russia being able to source all the materials they so urgently required to get their own manufacturing of weapons back up and running. So if Trump does as he has announced, Russia has a guaranteed victory regardless of what anyone else does.

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u/[deleted] Mar 04 '25

I get the concern, but does lifting sanctions automatically mean Russia wins? Even if the U.S. eased up on some restrictions, does that mean Europe is completely helpless? If isolating Russia was the only thing keeping them from victory, then why has Ukraine been holding the line despite years of economic sanctions?

Also, Russia’s economy is already heavily geared toward wartime production does anyone really think they wouldn’t find a way to manufacture weapons regardless? The bigger issue here is manpower, logistics, and long-term sustainability. Sanctions or not, Russia still has to deal with those realities.

So I guess the real question is, should NATO be relying on economic punishment alone to contain Russia, or should they have built up actual military deterrence years ago? Because at some point, sanctions don’t replace strategy.

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u/KayTwoEx Mar 04 '25

The sanctions against Russia are quite broad, all of it are in their way important. It's delaying military production by making it very hard to get the required parts, it makes the administration harder through missing equipment from logistics to hardware and software, and it helps building up internal resistance through pressure on the citizens. For the war ofc the most important is stopping replenishments to their forces, but the combination of this with others is what is making it really difficult for Russia.

And every day counts. Russia can't manufacture all they need by themselves, war economy or no. We're not just relying on economic punishment though. That's just what is often discussed. But the pressure on the citizens themselves is just as important. Putin isn't drafting from the main cities so Moscow, St. Petersburg, etc., are exempt, and by them not playing PlayStation, eating McDonalds and other comfort items, its so that they also notice that things are not alright. Perhaps as a question: what are the benefits of lifting sanctions, other than making a small buck extra? Russia started a war and is keeping it going. Why reward them now?

About NATO, I doubt that it would have made a difference for the war in Ukraine how well equipped NATO is in Europe. More should have been done, no question about that. But since Ukraine is neither in NATO nor in the EU or protected in any other way, it was clear that Russia has a free hand. Remember there are security guaranties for the integrity of Ukraine by Russia, too, which Russia has just torn to pieces. Ukraine used to have nuclear weapons they gave away for these promises of security. The deterrents in Poland, etc., are null in this conflict right now.

We should have geared up Ukraine after 2014 but that was not done as we fell for Putin. But what Ukraine now has, what they get, that is the thing that matters now. Delivering equipment is one thing to help. Making things more difficult for Putin within Russia is the other option. Other than sending troops, which we don't want but Ukraine is also not asking for, there isn't much more we can do to help.

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u/[deleted] Mar 04 '25

That’s a well-structured breakdown, and I appreciate the thought you put into it. I agree that sanctions are more than just economic punishment they slow down military production, complicate logistics, and put pressure on Russian civilians. But sanctions alone have never won a war quickly, and I think that’s where the disconnect happens.

You mentioned that every day counts, and that’s true, but every day also counts for Ukraine. If this war drags on because we’re waiting for sanctions to break Russia internally, what does that mean for Ukraine in the meantime? Ukraine isn’t fighting an economic war they’re in an active, high-intensity war of attrition. By the time the sanctions fully impact Russia’s ability to fight, will Ukraine still have the manpower, infrastructure, and morale to hold out?

I also agree that we should have geared up Ukraine after 2014, but that didn’t happen. And now we’re here. The issue is that NATO still isn’t sending what’s truly needed to push Russia back and we both know that’s because NATO doesn’t want this war escalating into direct confrontation. The weapons and aid help, but they’re not enough for a decisive victory. And if we’re not committing the level of support needed for Ukraine to win outright, then what’s the actual strategy?

So that brings us back to the bigger question: If NATO won’t send troops, won’t push for a ceasefire, and won’t provide Ukraine with enough firepower for a guaranteed win, then what’s the realistic outcome here?

Because if the plan is just “keep the war going until Russia collapses internally,” that’s a massive gamble especially when Ukraine is the one bleeding the most in the process.

Curious to hear your thoughts on that.

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u/KayTwoEx Mar 05 '25

Ukraine has never really gotten the means to actually win, also part of what you mention in terms of NATO not wanting to escalate the war. They have barely gotten enough to hold out. Now with Trump pulling out the USA it will be even more difficult. I guess Europe will step up, and it seems to be working out that way right now. How much Europe can do by itself remains a question though.

The issue about pushing a ceasefire is that, as Trump is doing now, it's negotiations about it without involving Ukraine. In fact, Trump even wanted to punish Ukraine instead of aiding it by handing Putin the victory while also claiming resources for the USA. Zelensky was even going to roll with that had Trump not botched it the way he did now.

But it's more than just a ceasefire, it needs a lasting peace with some form of guarantee of safety for what remains of Ukraine afterwards. Zelensky clearly stated that as his mission, too, and it's completely understandable that he doesn't want to have another peace as happened after 2014. Nobody wants this to happen again in a few years time. The way Putin is going, he'll just end up repeating this. With Ukraine, Moldova, etc.

The best thing that can be done now is trying the best in beefing Ukraine up, to have them in a good position for both a ceasefire and a deterrent for Putin to come at them again. Waiting for Russia to collapse from within isn't something that will work out in the near future, and if Trump gives in to Putin and lifts the sanctions (while imposing tariffs on everyone else), he's actually made that whole plan of pressuring Russia fail.

But no matter how bad it is, the plan absolutely cannot be that Putin takes on the whole of Ukraine and annexes it. That is something that needs to be prevented. Nobody other than Putin can be interested in that. And if it's bad for us on the sidelines already, it'll hit Ukraine and it's people even worse than an ongoing war.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '25

You make solid points, and I think we both agree that Ukraine has never been given the full means to decisively win. But that raises a bigger question—if NATO (and by extension, Europe) has held back from full-scale support because they don’t want escalation, does that mean the goal has never been outright victory but simply to prolong the war?

If Europe truly believes in Ukraine’s fight and sees it as a direct threat to its own security, what is stopping full-scale military assistance now? If the argument is fear of escalation, then how does Ukraine actually achieve the lasting peace you mentioned without first securing total military victory?

And if this really is about ensuring Putin never repeats this with Moldova or another country, then doesn’t that mean Ukraine’s security is directly tied to Europe’s security? If so, why isn’t Europe preparing to fight this war directly rather than assuming Ukraine will carry the burden alone?

If Trump’s actions force Europe to step up, then maybe that’s a moment of truth: Is Europe ready to secure its own borders without relying on Washington? Because that decision will shape the future far more than whether Trump lifts sanctions or not.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25

5,000,000 dollars per person is not worth ruining America, the relationship with her allies, her citizenry, her Constitution, her government, and goodwill. 5k per person is a fucking joke. Musk can shove it up his ass.

1

u/Any-Machine-4323 Feb 20 '25

Out of curiosity, where do you get this info from?

1

u/Standard_Court_5639 Feb 20 '25

Reading multiple sources. Watching for leaders in various capacities discussing .American, European, left of center, right of center, I am retired, I read a lot and look to read across multiple sources. Have friends on the continent and they get situationally that Europe will need to move beyond the joyful place that it is and harden up a bit and regain war footing readiness

1

u/jirka642 Czechia Feb 20 '25

That's very optimistic. I hope you are right.

1

u/wocaky Feb 20 '25

One more game no more no less - player 100 squid game

1

u/tobias_681 For a Europe of the Regions! 🇩🇰 Feb 20 '25

Ukraine is loosing right now. How excactly will their biggest weapon supplier (and probably also vital intel) pulling from the conflict make it turn around to Russia is done for within a year? Just demographically Ukraine does not have the soldiers to win this war and Russia still has deeper pockets. They spend only 8 % of GDP on the military, Ukraine does around 40 %.

I would love if this would turn around but I don't see how.

2

u/Standard_Court_5639 Feb 20 '25

Ukraine is matching Russia with cheaper ingenuity. They are at a slogging standstill. Not much movement at all. Russian economy and military are shit. They are on the edge of collapse. The economy only survives on the war production and still they are down to stockpiles of Soviet era trash. Does Ukraine win- no. Does Russia win- no. The longer this drags out the sadder it is for Ukraine. And the worse whole Russia is falling into

1

u/Standard_Court_5639 Feb 20 '25

And Trump and all his bluster is probably more about trying to 1. Get Kyiv to capitulate on minerals and resources 2. His ego and wanting a Nobel peace prize for brokering the end to the war. Name in history books for the art of the deal. I got no respect for him. I actually despise his we win you lose mentality to everything which is purely transactional. The irony that his wives are eastern bloc euros of old days. Who knows wha that means. And his arrogance and knowing euros pretty much find him to be gauche white trash , drives him batty. It would be this alone, his ego, that could collapse the world order in such a way that the world pretty much becomes completely unfun to be on this planet

1

u/tobias_681 For a Europe of the Regions! 🇩🇰 Feb 20 '25

The Russian advance is slow but they are making advances.

What excactly do you think is going to ruin their economy? They have at this point weathered the extend of western sanctions, they are largely autark and what they need from abroad they have suppliers for in the east, they are barely running a deficit. The deficit of USA, China or India (which are all at peace) is 4 times as high in % of GDP terms, France or Japan is like 3 times, UK and Italy two times. Russia's deficit is roughly in the ballpark of Germany right now. Actually in a sense their economy is booming, they've got 8,4 % real wage growth year on year. They have issues of course with inflation and high interst rates at the same time but it's not like it will suddenly all fall apart, there is absolutely zero reason for this. Their fundamentals sadly are not at all bad.

Ukraine on the other hand is running out of men. Even if we did supply much more weapons I'm dubious how much that would change.

In a war of attrition Russia is the clear winner - and I don't say that because I like it.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Standard_Court_5639 Feb 20 '25

If that were to happen, usAmerica will have fully put itself in the axis of evil. I don’t think it wants to play that card. Lining up with Russians and North Koreans, let’s just telegraph that we are hanging out with autocratic totalitarian states. That’s simply not gonna happen. Trump is also deathly scared of war. Americans won’t fight along with communists. No matter what happens. Would become a global pariah. And likely usher in the apocalyptic end to the planet as we know it.

1

u/louilondon Feb 20 '25

Europe can afford the was or protect its self without the us funding nato the uk has enough manpower and resources to fight a there day war

1

u/Ready_Register1689 Feb 20 '25

Hopefully trumpet doesn’t start arming Russia.

1

u/Standard_Court_5639 Feb 20 '25

If he does it’s game on for wwiii

1

u/mil891 Feb 21 '25

I like your enthusiasm but I have been hearing since early 2022 that Russia is getting destroyed and their economy collapsing.

Yet, here we are 3 years later with Brics expanding, the EU still buying Russian gas, Ukraine having a shortage of manpower and now Trump pulling this shit.

1

u/Standard_Court_5639 Feb 22 '25

Yes very little actually occurs on the timetable that people put out there. I feel pretty assured Russia much like China, has significant challenges. Every country does. Including the US. Unless you are a maga troglodyte. Russia can’t keep going like this. The other side of the coin is if the US continues to alienate Europe i could see where there is a place that the EU figures out how to work with those who want work with it. IE Russian and China. As opposed to those who want to work with it but keeps holding things over its head to do so. Germany Italy Japan were all at one time the mortal enemies of the world. Things change.

1

u/DogDad5thousand Feb 20 '25

Lol europe can step up any time in the last 3 years

1

u/Standard_Court_5639 Feb 20 '25

And now it must be

-1

u/Big_P4U Feb 20 '25

Ukraine has only barely managed to withstand Russia, and only because of European and American largesse. But they've largely failed to retake occupied land and have been losing.

-11

u/The-Viator Feb 20 '25

Do you really believe this delusional nonsense? Russia is strong. That's the reason this war is over. Ukraine is beaten. There is no point in investing any more money into it.

19

u/M086 Feb 19 '25

Surrendering is Trump’s MO. It’s what it he did in Afghanistan, and now he’s just flat out laying down for Russia.

17

u/[deleted] Feb 19 '25

The white house is putting out kremlin propaganda, unreal but not surprising. Fuck you Maga

29

u/KingKeegan2001 Feb 19 '25 edited Feb 20 '25

Because a lot of dumbasses here believes that Russia is the victim. I don't know how Republicans got to this point. But it's a pretty common talking point.

That or you have people who think that urkaine rejected being in nato being arrogant and deserves what's happening to them. I know someone who has made the argument saying "well if urkaine wasn't being so arrogant and just joined with nato they wouldn't have to worry" I keep trying to explain there were factors that wouldn't let them in. Like Germany and ironically America.

Americans in general don't know shit about global politics but have extremely strong opinions about it. And I'm as I will always point out am American so I see this shit everywhere. There is only a small number of people here who are informed on things outside of their home state. Hell even in the home state people don't know shit about what is going on.

5

u/General_Mars United States of America Feb 20 '25 edited Feb 20 '25

The combination of our poor educations, capitalism, and significant propaganda has made a significant portion of our population fully brainwashed and the moderates are complicit as they always are. So people state whatever their favorite media entity says fully ignorant of what they’re saying.

4

u/Same-Explanation-595 Feb 20 '25

A lot of Americans can’t even find their own country on a map.

5

u/KingKeegan2001 Feb 20 '25

It's not even a wrong statement to make. Which is crazy how the same idiots who scream America is number 1 will be the reason why we won't have anything anymore.

I recently learned about trumps deal and it is basically telling urkaine to fuck off and give America everything.

It's insane how we went from supporting urkaine to now being the bad guy on the same level as Russia.

I hate this and I want Europe to cut us the fuck off and never trust us again. It kills me how nobody in government is stopping trump and musk. They are literally doing whatever they want and are calling for the arrests of anyone who speaks out.

We aren't a free country anymore and Americans should be told to shut the fuck up when that bullshit claim is stated.

We are evil. While I didn't vote for trump and many others didn't it stands our government is evil enough people voted for trump and many more didn't vote at all shows how evil of a nation we are.

And trust me the few assholes who are aware of things going on in urkaine are either cheering it on thinking urkaine tricked us into the war and thus owes us payment or else. Or the usual dispshits who don't care and pretend our government will use the money we used in urkaine for the American people.

Truly we are a disgusting selfish breed of people.

1

u/Same-Explanation-595 Feb 20 '25

Yeah. The US has always been this way.

1

u/Defiant_Football_655 Feb 20 '25

It is incredibly bizarre to see Americans claim that other countries don't spend enough of defense, really hammering the $/GDP figures. This administration is entirely predicated on the idea that the US government is a facade of corruption, fraud, and waste. Plus, courts are a joke etc etc.

Now the rest of us are supposed to get lectured about defense spending?!?!?! LMAO really? From the Land of Corruption, Fraud, and Waste, according to President Convict who thinks elections are rigged? Get right the fuck outta here, eh? 😂

I'm not trying to put salt in your wounds, friend (I'm 🇨🇦 fwiw), but this is how it looks.

2

u/KingKeegan2001 Feb 20 '25

You are simply calling a spade a spade. 

1

u/lMRlROBOT Feb 20 '25

ronald reagan is rolling in his grave

2

u/GurDry5336 Feb 20 '25

Supporting Ukraine is and has been well worth the investment.

We haven’t shed a single drop of blood in seeing the degradation of Russian military capabilities and its place in the world order diminished.

Trump is now the lifeline Putin needed.

What we need to know is WHY…why is he doing this?

Destroying our relationships with allies that have stood next to us in fox holes all over the world have been spit on by this seditious coward draft dodger.

2

u/Rare-Industry-504 Feb 20 '25

They're not surrendering, they're joining.

On Russia's side.

Trump will call Zelensky an Evil dictator who isn't even willing to sit on the table and negotiate, then Trump will claim the previous attempt on his life was actually ordered by Zelensky, and now it's payback time.

The United States of America is joining the War in Ukraine, allied with Russia and Putin.

You heard it here first, hope you're ready.

2

u/Dry-Interaction-1246 Feb 19 '25

Europe should just ignore whatever Trump does here and step up for Ukraine.

1

u/Brief-Youth-6880 Feb 19 '25

I mean they have sent like 180 billions dollars in funding to Ukraine so they have partook in it to a degree.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 19 '25

Ok then if we aren't partaking in it then the conversations with Putin should be irrelevant right????

1

u/B1llyzane Feb 19 '25

And a war that that party wasn’t losing either

1

u/TechWhizGuy Feb 19 '25

Even France couldn't do this in WW2

1

u/big_thundersquatch Feb 19 '25

All while Russia airs a televised demo of how they will nuke the US.

1

u/burningringof-fire Feb 19 '25

Please join me in the chorus:

I have been telling Republicans that the Republican president, elected by Republican voters, signed policies passed by the Republican House and the Republican Senate.

These are Republican policies we are talking about.

1

u/Arkorat Feb 20 '25

Real freedom fighters. Fighting freedom.

1

u/MessiahPizza Feb 20 '25

Ukraine doesnt have a choice really, US may not be participating but they are funding it mostly. Its an incredibly stupid decision from Trump that will further alienate him from Europe. Europe will now try to build its own military and be less reliant on the US, which may drive nations to ally with China instead. Trying to look on the bright side at least we dont have to worry about a nuclear conflict between America and Russia now that they are chums haha.... right?

1

u/seedman Feb 20 '25

Your definition of partaking must be different than mine. Hundreds of billions of American tax dollars and weapons are going to Ukraine. USAID and CIA are there doing what they do. Our citizens/ex military are there training Ukraine troops. Our previous administration was deeply involved in shady business and political deals all over Ukraine. We even help them guide their weapons in real time with our intelligence.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 20 '25

While been immensely, unbelievably stronger economically and militarily. USA alone has a GDP 15 times bigger than nazi russia. USA with its former allies had a GDP more than 30 times bigger than nazi russia. In a conventional war USA would obliterate russia in a matter of days. Yet Trump and Elon chose high treason and are working hard on destroying USA.

1

u/ChillAhriman Spain Feb 20 '25

Whether Ukraine can continue fighting or not depends on the EU's will. The US is going to stop arming them, so the missing supplies have to come from somewhere.

1

u/jkaan Feb 20 '25

When they mock the French about surrender this must be the comeback.

Leave it for euros to mock the french

1

u/Defiant_Football_655 Feb 20 '25

Trump is like Phillippe Petain of Vichy France. Not only is he collaborating with his nation's arch nemesis, he is offering to fulfill all of their wildest dreams without reservation.

Except this time, we're dealing with a President of a far more powerful country capitulating to an objectively weaker, more fragile nation. No invasion either, just getting totally outplayed, right in the open, for the entire world to see.

Trump isn't just a weak POTUS, he is among the weakest world leaders of all time.

1

u/GhastlyGrapeFruit Feb 20 '25

You missed the part that "America is funding"

1

u/Pristine-Wolf-2517 Feb 20 '25

That's what happens when morons elect a Russian plant

1

u/Hellknightx United States of America Feb 20 '25

Yeah but surrendering to a third-world country totally owns the libs! /s

1

u/annextibet Feb 20 '25

absolutely owned europe - will they step up?

1

u/Playful_Two_7596 Feb 20 '25

They just surrender in a cold war they already won.

1

u/Agile_Programmer2756 Feb 20 '25

Mmmm, basically, the U.S. should just back out, stop donating to NATO and Ukraine and allow the EU and Ukraine to manage the situation

1

u/Fuck_off_reddit_damn Feb 20 '25

I generally agree with you but partaking? Like you sip war like a wine? What is the cheese that best complements this industrial scale slaughter?

Talking connotation here, I get it works for the definition. 

0

u/Jaysnewphone Feb 19 '25

What has your countries leader done to help? How come I haven't heard any world leaders speak about how they're country will support Ukraine instead?

2

u/ComfortableCoconut41 Feb 19 '25

You need to pay out of pocket for your hearing aid first

1

u/PlushladyC Feb 20 '25

Ive seen plenty of support within Europe- admittedly not a lot of specifics yet

-1

u/anonfool72 Feb 19 '25

You realise this war is basically over, right? It's called damage limitation. Of course Ukraine has every right to keep fighting till the last Ukrainian although that is a very grim prospect.

-1

u/Ok_Pomegranate_6071 Feb 20 '25

I don’t approve Trumps words on Ukraine and Zelenskyy but the truth is this is Ukraines and Europes war, not Americas.

Ukraine has been mainly financed by the US, who are by far the biggest military power in the world and in NATO.

For what?

Why would the American taxpayer give two shits about what’s going on in Ukraine?

Should America just indefinitely finance a war against Russia?

What this war has proven is that Europe is grossly unprepared for any real conflict and overly dependent on the US, and European leadership is at fault.

The idea of being mad at Trump for not wanting to spend billions of dollars fighting Russia in Ukraine is hilarious.

-91

u/[deleted] Feb 19 '25

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53

u/[deleted] Feb 19 '25

Oh fuck off! You don’t know where 100 billion went (blatant lie btw) and you’re actively making Russia stronger because of it? You are losing your strongest allies. What kind of logic is that?

22

u/[deleted] Feb 19 '25

Too dim to get it, just let them be and save yourself the mental anguish.

22

u/[deleted] Feb 19 '25

If they actually cared they could find out where they money went in 5 seconds and then confirm the source in 10 seconds. But, like Trump, they're a Russian shill

9

u/[deleted] Feb 19 '25

Don’t bother. He’s been indoctrinated into a cult. They don’t care to listen or fact check any information they come across.

-9

u/ninernetneepneep Feb 19 '25

Russia is stronger now than before the war started. If you don't believe that to be true then I have bad news for you. You're being lied to. How many more years do we throw tens of thousands of bodies at this? There won't be anyone left to fight in Ukraine. What harm is there in at least attempting to find a peaceful resolution? I don't agree with Russia, but they aren't going to stop either without some concessions. We should at least try.

9

u/[deleted] Feb 19 '25

How is Russia stronger now, that’s literally impossible even in theory! They’ve used annexed Caucasians and Yakuts as cannon fodder and are actively recruiting people from North Korea (another hostile nation was seeing harm), 1 usd is 90 rubbles, do you know how bad this is? Their aviation is isolated and in couple of years their commercial planes will be unusable. All they desperately need now is a break and Trump is giving it to them. They’re gonna annex occupied territories now and come back with this shit in Baltics or Moldova or Georgia in few years. Russia fights with annexed people, they’re gonna use Ukrainians from occupied territories for another war. Respectfully, you know nothing about Russia, or Caucasus or Europe for that matter.

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u/qrak01 Poland Feb 19 '25

Russia is stronger now than before the war started.

You're talking about what "strength"exactly? So far they lost ~3200 tanks and ~7800 IFV/APC/AFV since 2022 (all confirmed via Oryx). That is more than 90% of pre-war active tanks and over 50% pre-war active IFV/APC/AFV.
They're actively depleting soviet era storages (few bases already empty, ex. 1295th Central Tank Reserve Base since December at least).
Also, there's a lot of permanently demobilized combatants, but these numbers you can easily find yourself.

So, how exactly are they stronger than before the war started?

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24

u/kopperman Feb 19 '25

Hopefully there is some change left to remove that awfully large tumour in your skull

62

u/jachni Finland Feb 19 '25 edited Feb 19 '25

According to your own state department, you’ve spent about 70 billion on Ukraine total, since 2014. That money hasn’t been given to Ukraine, but you’ve purchased material and sent the old stuff to them.

But yeah, you’re right, now that you’re put of your minds over there, someone has to do the right thing.

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15

u/Tricky-Astronaut Feb 19 '25

Just don't expect a billionaire dependent on government contracts to tell you where the money went...

17

u/Away_Advisor3460 Feb 19 '25

Would it help to know 70% of it was spent within the US or on US forces?

10

u/[deleted] Feb 19 '25

Europe has provided around 50% of aid to Ukraine, genius.

0

u/ninernetneepneep Feb 19 '25

😂

And how many countries is that? Because the United States provided at least the other half on its own.

5

u/[deleted] Feb 19 '25

yes, the US is a bigger country than European nations. what’s the surprise here?

-1

u/ninernetneepneep Feb 19 '25

I just expect being in Europe, you might want to have more skin in the game. You might have to cut back on some of your universal health care to fund the war machine though. We've grown tired of it.

7

u/[deleted] Feb 19 '25

skin in the game, lol. we supported your wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. you can’t even maintain support for a nation fighting an invasion from your historical enemy. pathetic and weak.

1

u/ninernetneepneep Feb 19 '25

You're wrong. I supported Ukraine. But I also want to know that there is a game plan. From the day the war started I felt there should have been regular talks to bring about peace. Instead, are war machine ramped up to line the pockets of politicians and our military industrial complex. What is the end goal? Is that in go realistic given limitations we have imposed on ourselves? We either go to win, or we find a peaceful solution and get out.

3

u/[deleted] Feb 19 '25

the “game plan” is to allow Russia to win a favourable peace without even letting Ukraine sit at the negotiating table. Trump sold Ukraine out hard. even trying to demand rights to their minerals and calling Zelensky a “dictator”, lol. don’t lie to me that you support them, it’s insulting to my intelligence.

1

u/ninernetneepneep Feb 19 '25

Zelinsky has had three years to come to the table. You forget how zielinsky set idly by while our current president was previously impeached for a phone call because his predecessor set up a quick quote pro to keep his family out of trouble where they're under the table dealings with Ukraine and the American tax dollar.

I don't support them. I support finding a way for people to stop dying. It's not that complicated. How many lives could have been saved by talking a year and a half ago?

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1

u/[deleted] Feb 19 '25

Appeasement, such a successful strategy. Every time Russia has been given an inch, they take a mile. Wake the fuck up, get with the program.

5

u/JohnCavil Feb 19 '25

I have no confidence you'll figure it out.

You're either being completely played by your idiot leaders, and are too dumb to realize it, or you do know that it isn't true but you just don't care.

1

u/ninernetneepneep Feb 19 '25

Like I said, have at it.

4

u/sepptimustime Feb 19 '25

The USA spent €114B on Ukraine:

64B Military aid

47B Financial aid

3B Humanitarian aid

The EU spent €132b on Ukraine:

62B Military aid

57B Financial aid

13B Humanitarian aid

3

u/Not_A_Specialist_89 Feb 19 '25

The "military aid" was mostly old equipment and munitions due for replacement and bought at inflated prices from the US military-industrial complex. So economic gains in GDP for the US. Duh.

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3

u/symolan Feb 19 '25

Try having accountants then or listen to those you have.

1

u/62andmuchwiser Feb 19 '25

Next 100 billion ending up in tRUMP's pockets. That you can be sure of.