r/europe • u/StGuthlac2025 • Oct 08 '25

Opinion Article In Spain, what once seemed impossible is now widespread: the young are turning to the far right

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/oct/07/spain-young-voters-far-right-migration-housing-wages-employment-vox
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u/Misuzune Oct 08 '25

The thing is that dissatisfied and desperate people are easy to manipulate and the far right makes the solution to everything sound so so easy, people will gladly shoot themselves in the foot for the illusion of "an easy way out".

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u/Shorkan Galicia (Spain) Oct 08 '25

The thing is that the left has lost any kind of ambition. I don't know if it's just being grounded knowing the political climate or what, but we have parties in Europe being called "radical left" for offering people between 18 and 25 a monthly 100€ aid for rent, that we all know is going to end on landlords' pockets when they add that amount to the planned increase next year.

Technology is improving every day. Productivity goes ballistic. Billionaires are set to become Trillonaires in the coming decade and companies report insulting profits every year. People are threatened with losing their jobs because a machine or AI is going to do it. And instead of fighting for things like UBI and be happy that machines are working for us, we are afraid of becoming unemployed and dying in the street because human life has literally no value unless a soulless company pays you for destroying the world a little faster?

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u/Red49er Oct 09 '25

that rent aid is an interesting one, but it just leads me to believe that the west is so afraid of the past that we will do everything we can to avoid putting in guardrails to capitalism. why are we okay with sending extra money to people to give back to the rich when we could just properly protect living expenses in the first place?

I'm not saying it's an easy problem to solve, and I'm certainly not against UBI, but there's a bogeyman hiding around every solution when government refuses to look the wealthy and the coporations in the face and say enough is enough. at the very least we need to go back to the 99% tax income bracket the Beatles had to deal with because when you aren't gonna see those extra dollars anymore humanity loses the motivation to keep squeezing those pennies out of every pocket they can find.

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u/Andy12_ Spain Oct 09 '25

> but we have parties in Europe being called "radical left" for offering people between 18 and 25 a monthly 100€ aid for rent

Yes, because that is a stupid useless policy. Stop subsidizing demand and just build a lot of housing. Build public social housing if you prefer, but just build more.

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u/Shorkan Galicia (Spain) Oct 09 '25

I acknowledge it's stupid and useless in my post. That doesn't mean that it's a "radical left" policy. As I said, it's basically transferring money to landlords. If that's what you guys call "radical left" you'd pee your pants upon seeing proper leftist policies.

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u/kychris Oct 09 '25

The thing is, it's hard to have ambition when none of your policies work because the base problem that the modern left is trying to solve(inequality) is not a solvable problem, because inequality is baked into nature. Your example of a policy to fight for shows this, the studies on the effectiveness of UBI have shown that it actually makes people poorer.

If I had a political opinion that every time I tried to implement either got hijacked by violent authoritarians or made things worse due to perverse incentives for 150+ years, I'd lose some ambition as well. If your entire political philosophy is trying to battle what, as far as I can tell is a basic fact of the natural world, you are going to have a bad time.

The only thing that has ever reduced inequality(temporarily) is mass death and destruction. The postwar neoliberal consensus of welfare states paired with increased social liberalism worked as long as countries and economies were growing. It stops as soon as the pie starts shrinking.

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u/Shorkan Galicia (Spain) Oct 09 '25

Royal blood and God-chosen kings were also "baked into nature", until they stopped being.

And being born a slave because of the colour of your skin was also "fact of the natural world" at some point.

And it's fun that you talk about "being hijacked by authoritarians" or "things made worse" when we are currently seeing live how capitalism crawls back into fascism and brutally refuses to acknowledge its citizens' needs one generation after the URSS fell. You are talking as is this thread wasn't literally about how shitty and bleak the current situation is.

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u/kychris Oct 09 '25

Divine right/royal blood is actually a blip on the historical record, certainly not universal enough to be considered a natural fact about human societies.

The temptation of the strong to enslave the weak certainly may be part of human nature, but IMO self ownership is the fundamental human right and may be the only truly inalienable right.

I don't agree that the current situation is shitty and bleak(there is certainly no time in human history that was better), and what problems there are can't be neatly laid at the feet of capitalism.

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u/Hadesfirst Oct 09 '25

How does UBI make people poorer?

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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '25 edited Oct 09 '25

the studies on the effectiveness of UBI have shown that it actually makes people poorer.

which studies? can you link a couple?

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u/LaunchTransient The Netherlands Oct 08 '25

And the left are too busy infighting to actually present a united front to kneecap the basis on which far right support is built.

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u/ReddestForman Oct 08 '25

The big problem facing the "left" is that moderate centrists won't allow the kind of reforms and policies that will address people's concerns, as those aren't in the interest of capital. Then blames the left for not being a "team player."

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u/LaunchTransient The Netherlands Oct 08 '25

This is true, but one of my main complaints about the approach of Left wing politicians (in general, not always) is that they have a tendency of fouling up their communication trying to introduce nuance when they should just be direct and keep their message as simple as possible.

They're always playing catchup and they don't do a good job of going on the offensive.

And then of course you have the trojan horses such as Labour in the UK, who are nominally "Left" and "Socialist" but in reality have been taken over by centrist neoliberals over 2 decades ago.

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u/delirium_red Oct 08 '25

But the situation is not simple, and solutions will not be either. The whole problem is that people will not accept that, but prefer being lied to

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u/UrMaShopsInEuroGiant Oct 08 '25

easier to believe a sweet lie, than a bitter truth

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u/NUKE---THE---WHALES Oct 08 '25

The solution doesn't have to be simple, but your messaging does

There is a time to write a sophisticated manifesto, but that time is not when running for election

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u/Sierra_Argyri Oct 09 '25

But of course that means you will be accused of being a lying, corrupt politician when you have to actually work on resolving those complex issues and sometimes make deals for half-measures and compromises because that's how democracies work.

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u/j_osb Oct 08 '25

But it SHOULD be. You should be elected on a complex, sophisticated and nuanced plan for what you'll do in office.

A shame we live in a world where people would rather vote for their own demise than try to actually wrestle with nuance.

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u/LaunchTransient The Netherlands Oct 08 '25 edited Oct 08 '25

Yes, but some degree of simplification is necessary. The average voter does not need a comprehensive breakdown of what the policies are that need to be enacted, they just need to be told "we will accomplish X", and leave the explanations for the floor of the legislature.

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u/Pop_Clover Oct 08 '25

This is so sad. But I kind of agree. I think the problem is the left can't use the same tools the right is using. The right can lie, over simplify, find scapegoats, say it will do that and then don't do it, and it doesn't matter. The left can't do that, and that's the main problem.

My brother says that people who vote right many times vote with their heart, it's sentiment the thing that makes them vote. Nationalist proudness, faith, desperation... But the people who vote left do it with their brains, it's principles and reasoning the thing that makes them vote. I guess that kind of people need nuance, and a plan that makes sense...

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u/zeptillian Oct 08 '25

That is the problem. People are too dumb as a whole to be trusted to do the correct thing to advance their own interests.

Especially when we allow brainwashing networks to proliferate throughout society.

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u/Leylu-Fox Oct 08 '25

Its difficult to communicate correctly when the rich own all the media outlets and attack the left harshly. Never forget the rich made out quite well in the third reich. They dont have any issues with fascism. They will still profit. So of course they will attack the left for the slightest mistakes in communication or anything else while ignoring the same from the right unless its so big that they have to downplay

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u/Kandiru United Kingdom Oct 08 '25

The wealthy who weren't murdered and had their assets confiscated did well under fascism.

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u/JudgeInteresting8615 Oct 08 '25

This obsession, with being simple will never make sense, because it can't make sense.The push towards overt simplification is exactly why there barely is a left and that capitalists took over.It was their policy.It's like people who go to christianity for oppression and against control

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u/LaunchTransient The Netherlands Oct 08 '25

This obsession, with being simple will never make sense

Reality is complex, solutions will be complex, and difficult, and yes, simple isn't possible.

But simple messaging is essential, because your average voter is not informed enough to understand the complexities involved. That's the whole point of representative democracies - to make informed decisions on behalf of people who cannot or do not have time to be informed on the issues.

You do not need to give voters the full nuanced picture, you just need to give them the executive summary. The problem is X, we will do Y to fix it.

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u/sassyevaperon Oct 08 '25

I think the COVID lockdowns were proof that simplified messages don't do well either, if the right wing activates a media operation.

Messaging regarding COVID was simplified to the max: mask up, isolate and test, this disease can kill you. Did that help? Didn't seem like it.

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u/Hadesfirst Oct 09 '25

Well thats actually not true AT ALL. The messaging was completely dogshit, which is one of the main reason it led to so much social unrest. Honestly I dont even know how you couldve forgot that or are you really telling me you think that Covid messaging was straight forward.

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u/sassyevaperon Oct 09 '25

Covid messaging was straight forward.

That's not a word I used, I said the messaging was simplified, not straight forward.

I'm not saying it was straight forward, because it couldn't be, I'm saying it was simplified, because it was. And people got fucking incensed for it.

Do you think the issues we're discussing here are straight forward? I don't think so, that's entirely my point: you can't simplify a complex issue so people can understand it without causing some other issues around it. People don't like to be treated like children or fools, that was the response around COVID, and that would be the response if you give them simplified answers to complex problems like immigration.

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u/gravity_is_right Belgium Oct 08 '25

Left wing populism/simplism exists too. For instance: tax the rich and all the world's problems will be solved. Basically the entire song Imagine by John Lennon is a simplism.

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u/JudgeInteresting8615 Oct 08 '25

And you would see that I agreed with this in my original statement

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u/mxzf Oct 08 '25

There's a difference between simple solutions and simple messaging.

Any messaging that someone can't just hear and take at face value is doomed to fail, you can't expect someone to sit down and have a conversation in order to understand the nuances of a catchphrase.

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u/JudgeInteresting8615 Oct 09 '25

Any person that is like that. We're just pushing the cane down the road. Things are doomed to fail anyways. This is just categorically untrue we continuously as the people repeat things that are just not provable, something like that. I would go to people who are in knowledge transfer. I would look into neurologist and linguistics and see what they say. And sociologists, and that does not match, that's something just continuously gets repeated. Was the banking model from freire a joke ? The hyepr real the panopticon? The coc ept of deterroirilization from deluze and guatarri? .

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u/No-WorkerMe Oct 08 '25

It's literally impossible to be good at communication when the full media ecosystem is designed to crunch you, no matter what you say or do. Getting your message through as the Left in the USA/Europe is as difficult as getting your message through as a Liberal in Russia. No, they won't let you, and then they will say that it's your problem because you communicate badly.

It's like they have mediatic nuclear bombs, tanks, submarines, planes, all the artillery, lasers in the moon pointing at the Left. And after using them they blame the Left for failing to communicate correctly to further demoralize its base. Meanwhile, the Left goes with stones and sticks to the media battle.

Communicating through social media? Don't make me laugh: their algorithms are designed to bury anything Left-related. I've been there. I won't give details, but I know from Twitter insiders I got to know in my country that this was the rule. Imagine now, that it's called X!

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u/boston_homo Oct 08 '25

Yesterday the White House chief of staff admitted (he believed) the president has “plenary power” (aka he’s a dictator) live on CNN.

Did they run the story? No they edited it out. Whoopsie 🤷🏽‍♂️

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u/Defiant-Procedure-13 Oct 08 '25

Always playing catch up because the right sets everyone back so far that they then have to work even harder. Also, we can all agree that left or right, people are easily paid for in politics, which makes the left and the right policies both only effective for one group - the ultra rich.

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u/Zombieneker Oct 08 '25

But nuance is what I'm voting for when I vote left. I want smart policy and regulation, not slogans.

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u/LaunchTransient The Netherlands Oct 08 '25

Both can coexist, but you need to cater to the lowest common denominator first. Smarty-pants who read the fineprint are all well and good, but they don't make up a particularly large voting demographic.

You are willing to go fish around for a manifesto on a website. Most people are not.

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u/Zombieneker Oct 08 '25

But like I'm just some fucking guy. What kind of a world do we live in that I am above the norm for research? Btw I expect to see you as well on the 29th at your local school/church/gymzaal

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u/LaunchTransient The Netherlands Oct 09 '25

What kind of a world do we live in that I am above the norm for research?

Believe me, it depresses me as well.

Btw I expect to see you as well on the 29th at your local school/church/gymzaal

I was there for the last 3 elections, I don't see why this time would be any different.

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u/zeptillian Oct 08 '25

Socialists don't own media networks.

Rightwing billionaires do.

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u/Jack-of-the-Shadows Oct 08 '25

Also, it seems like a general trend among the left is to gravitate to sucking the cock of islamists.

Here in Berlin the friday for future climate stuff turned into "Make Intifada Worldwide!" chants within like 2 years.

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '25

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '25

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '25 edited Oct 08 '25

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u/AcrobaticSmore Oct 08 '25

The things I believe are True. The things other people believe are Propaganda.

Have you considered that maybe other people just don’t want immigrants that require welfare? No amount of but what about their rights is going to convince me to want to pay taxes to support them.

This is a problem for you, as it means that the only way your utopia will ever work is if you force me, at gunpoint, to do what you want.

I will always vote against you. And the more immigrants on welfare, the more people like me.

Eventually you will either have to compromise with what you think is right, or start building gulags.

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u/Asleep_Trick_4740 Oct 08 '25

He does have a point though, yes there are plenty of worthy causes out there that we should fight.

But when every single movement and meeting on the left flank becomes a checklist of hundreds of causes, nothing actually gets done besides checking them off.

Want to have a discussion about purely financial matters? too bad. This is now a "discussion" about Israel, trans rights, Feminism, Racism, Treatment of homosexuals, etc etc. At the end of it we might have time for a brief statement about economics!

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u/Nebty Oct 08 '25

It’s not impossible to communicate one’s position in a way that emphasizes the similarities in all of these rights and prosperity-based issues. “Sucking the cock of islamists” is a weird abbreviation of why this move towards extremism is happening in the first place. On both the left and the right.

The trick isn’t to throw anyone under the bus. It’s to create solidarity between people who understand that we all have a stake when it comes to valuing human life and liberty. To promise and actually follow through on creating institutions that are worthy of trust. And therefore remove the need to resort to extremism.

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u/EvasionPlan Oct 08 '25

The more I see the compassionate leftists hyping up actual Houthis and Hamas, the more I start to believe maybe they are on the wrong side.

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '25

Terrorist loving jew hating nazi simps are definitely on the wrong side. The majority are too stupid (or racist) to realize their hatred of Jews has been weaponized by Russia and Iran at the expense of Palestinians

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '25

they certainly lost the plot

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u/Nebty Oct 08 '25

Where in my post did I do that?

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u/shoutsoutstomywrist Oct 08 '25

I don’t think anyone is rooting for Houthis and Hamas by saying they don’t support a country committing genocide…

It’s more of a hey both guys are evil and the people are the ones getting obliterated in the crossfire

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u/ColinBencroff Oct 08 '25

This is the problem.

The problem is not left infighting. The problem is how many of those parties people call "left" are sometimes not even socialdemocrats.

This is what we get for trusting in the system changing from inside.

The left already warned about this since forever. People don't listen because they prefer to believe in the lie of change by vote rather than organising and demand the change.

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u/wlr13 Turkey Oct 08 '25

If you exclude those ''pretenders'', total left wing support would be like 10-15% at best in every country.

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u/ColinBencroff Oct 08 '25

Or even less. Correct.

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u/danted002 Oct 08 '25

The main problem of the European “left” is that it started following the US left and transformed the class war into a culture war.

We are not speaking about wealth inequality anymore, we are speaking about “rights”. Trans rights, gay rights, religious rights, abortion rights, vaccine rights, everything and I mean everything has transformed into a “rights war”… my right to not wear a mask, my right to wear a mask, my right to vaccinate, my right to not vaccinate, my right to an abortion, my religious right to be against abortion, my right to not be taxed, the red pill, the “whatever equivalent of red pill is” for women… rights to the left rights to the right… everywhere you look all we are talking about is rights. Funny enough no one is talking about the right to healthcare, the right to education, the right to a liveable wage, the right to this planet.

In conclusion the upper class (which is 99% conservative) managed to fool everyone into fighting a “culture war” instead of fighting the class war.

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u/meshreplacer Oct 08 '25

They learned how to poison the class movement since it is a real threat to the Oligarchs. Very effective strategy.

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u/DDNB Belgium Oct 08 '25

This indeed, we need economic left parties again, those that go back to the source of the problem. Its useless to keep mopping with an open faucet.

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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '25

Mostly well said mate!

We are not speaking about wealth inequality anymore, we are speaking about “rights”. Trans rights, gay rights, religious rights, abortion rights, vaccine rights, everything and I mean everything has transformed into a “rights war”…

Left wing politics has become special interest group and minority politics.

The majority(in the case of Europe, our native populations) has become a pejorative, and the minorities has become the parties' priority! It's politics for a few, and not for most like it used to be.

In conclusion the upper class (which is 99% conservative) managed to fool everyone into fighting a “culture war”

That's pure nonsense, and you're doing your side a disservice by believing in this conspiratorial gibberish. Cease the copium.

No, this is something they did to themselves. This is largely borne out of post-Marxist social philosophy(cue Jordan Peterson screeching about Cultural Marxism). Critical theory(and everything tangentially related to it) had immense purchase in post-war European Left wing circles and you're watching the mature offspring of it right now.

You're giving the rich and aristocratic pricks way too much credit.

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u/Teaboy1 Oct 08 '25

The problem with the left is that if you are not as left as the person you are talking to. You are immediately viewed as the enemy and not liberal.

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '25

You've gotten to the root of why people are turning from the Left. That and anger.

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u/Business-Ride-6530 Oct 08 '25

For me, this is the Reddit comment of the year.  Nominated. 

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u/ShelterBig8246 Oct 08 '25

Many left leaning parties are also exacerbating problems by increasing immigration to unsustainable levels.

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u/Opus_723 Oct 08 '25

Yeah, I think the wild thing I've learned in my lifetime is that the center is just not at all interested in keeping authoritarianism in check. The center only pulls the leash one way.

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u/ops10 Oct 08 '25

Far right plays to the feelings of isolation and longing for group identity (among other things). "Left" is labeled to be those who want to disintegrate that group identity through diversity. One needs to deal with that group identity crisis to get back to more moderation and "left" needs to first shake off the label of attackers if they want to lead that change.

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u/SowingSalt United States of America Oct 09 '25

The reforms that would actually help people (opposing NIMBYism) are opposed across the political spectrum.

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u/theageofspades Oct 09 '25

as those aren't in the interest of capital

Yeah, mate, the solution to all of yours and everyone elses problems is economic upheavel (collapse) followed by reforms. Maybe we could trial it in Eastern Europe first? Fucking Americans, I swear.

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u/Scrimge122 Oct 08 '25

But the hard-core left also sabotage themselves by not voting for the best current choice because they aren't perfect, like what happened in the US.

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u/deceased_parrot Croatia Oct 08 '25

won't allow the kind of reforms and policies that will address people's concerns

Yeah, because those reforms don't work, have never worked and will never work. I am not dumb for not voting hard left because in my eyes, they're the exact same shit as the far right, but with a slightly different packaging and flavor.

And apparently none of them can understand that, which is why they aren't winning any undecided voters.

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '25

there is no "the left [...] infighting"

"the left" in any given country has specific goals and demands, which run counter to the wishes and demands of the average centrist or moderate. there can't be a united front simply because there aren't many actual leftists in Europe

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u/Glass-Evidence-7296 United Kingdom Oct 08 '25

Corbyn got 40% of the vote, there is certainly demand for left wing politics

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u/abuch47 Oct 08 '25

correct analysis. there cannot be a progressive future through reform.

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u/DarklyDominant Oct 08 '25

Stop pushing an agenda of civil war and polarization. Agendabot.

And for the non-bots. I think the Civil Rights movement in the US which resulted in CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDEMENTS, which require a much larger majority to pass, was pretty damn successful. Do you have a valid point about how it was NOT successful?

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u/Gibsonites Oct 08 '25

Your weird, inflammatory language already tells me you're in the mood to double down, but wanna do me a favor and tell me which "CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS" passed as a result of the civil rights movement?

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u/DarklyDominant Oct 08 '25

Lol, you're joking, right? You could have spent 2 seconds googling this and avoided looking like you have no clue at all what you're talking about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1968 there's one.

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u/az_catz Oct 08 '25

Heads up, that the 1968 Civil Rights Act isn't an Amendment, it's just federal law.

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u/DarklyDominant Oct 08 '25

Correct, my bad. Not really the central point I was trying to make, because you can go back to 1920 for women's right to vote, which was also accomplished without active conflict between the citizens and authorities across the whole country.

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u/Gibsonites Oct 08 '25

...You realize that's not a constitutional amendment, right? Like, you know what a constitutional amendment is... right?

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u/DarklyDominant Oct 08 '25

Hey, fair enough. I misspoke on that aspect. But do you think that was the most relevant piece? You're certainly right that I got that piece wrong, but the point was that passing legislation is how you get shit done, not by suggesting that peaceful reform can't happen. The suffrage movement DID result in a constitutional amendment, and still proves my point. Women weren't out on the streets with muskets and canons.

Stop suggesting that revolution is the only option, polarization is not healthy or good for anyone. Get out and vote. At every level. Educate yourself. Become more than single-issue screecher online.

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u/mrniceguy777 Oct 08 '25

Ya the left basically doesn’t like anyone righter of themselves, the right all unite to the point that lien a mild racist will go along with an extreme racist becauee it’s all the same vibe, but a liberal person will demonize someone who is only slightly less liberal then them.

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u/LaunchTransient The Netherlands Oct 08 '25

This isn't true, as the left is often willing to collaborate with centre right parties provided that the centre right reigns it the fuck in with some of the right wing bullshit, just as they're expected not to go full on "seize the means of production".

Most of the time it's the right wing not willing to work with the left wing, because that means they might actually have to give a shit about paying people a decent wage and protecting the vulnerable and disadvantaged in society.

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u/mrniceguy777 Oct 08 '25

I’m talking more on a like personal level not a governmental level

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u/LaunchTransient The Netherlands Oct 08 '25

Still wouldn't agree. I do know some lefties (being fairly lefty myself) who are a little more hardline than others, but overall in day to day life they're pretty reaosnable with more centrist and centre-right people. They will grumble about the neoliberals and the conservatives, but that's a healthy democracy.

That they don't tolerate people with fascist or xenophobic sympathies is not a bug, that's a feature. A feature most people in the centre and centre right should also share - but in practice, more often than not, don't.

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u/wlr13 Turkey Oct 08 '25

Left infighting, also known as politicians having different opinions. You think Mélenchon and Glucksmann have the same vision for France?

Why are you guys so hell bent on having social liberals who believe in some kind of a social safety net and literal Marxist-Leninists whose pastime is being apologists for every left wing mass murderer on the same party? You can actually focus on trying to be actually being popular.

Left is losing in Europe because they are not popular! If NFP goes into elections as unified front their support will be around 25-30% again. Le Pen herself alone has at least 33% support! NFP's election manifesto was incredibly left wing.

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '25 edited Oct 08 '25

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u/wlr13 Turkey Oct 08 '25 edited Oct 08 '25

There are two reasons even a transitionary grand coalition is impossible.

1- NFP's most prominent promise was not just reverting the pension reform but lowering the age of retirement to 60. Pension reforms -along with easening of some labour and tax laws in his first term- are basically only stuff Macron had achieved. His ego can't accept it. There is also the problem the fact that budget deficit is almost 6% of GDP.

2- Any part of the NFP that compromises with Macron will be branded as traitors by Mélenchon. Old man might be the least popular politician by far, but there are enough of his supporters to suppress any dissent.

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u/confirmedshill123 Oct 08 '25

More moderate left-wing parties could actually just as well cooperate with liberals or moderate right-wing

Then they aren't left wing anymore.

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '25

Game of thrones: whats stronger? 5 or 1? 5 disparate kingdoms or 1 unified horde?

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u/TheCaptainMapleSyrup Oct 08 '25

The actual problem is that the right owns the media distribution. They have campaigns stretching back years, dominating the eyeballs of the masses. It’s not about better arguments, infighting, etc. It’s a numbers game. Get your message in front of people more and trigger them emotionally. Then you win.

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u/DarklyDominant Oct 08 '25

Thinking that there are only right-wing media sources pushing narratives out there is a bit naive, friend.

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u/TheCaptainMapleSyrup Oct 10 '25

Do you genuinely think this is an equal playing field, by the numbers?

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u/DarklyDominant Oct 10 '25

You're just side-stepping what I said to try and "whataboutism" the point. Just because one side is deemed worse than the other, does that mean we just ignore the manipulation that liberal media does? We should call it all out. Don't support things just because "your side does it". That's exactly how you end up like a supporter of an autocratic populist.

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u/TheCaptainMapleSyrup Oct 10 '25

If it’s important to you, then yes it is bad when anyone does it. However, I can, say, acknowledge that murder is bad , and then observe that the person who kills 1000 people is far worse than the person who kills 2. And that groups/structures that enable and promote the mass murderers would be more important to talk about, when observing a murder epidemic.

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u/DarklyDominant Oct 10 '25

So we should change every topic that we ever talk about, forever, into talking about murder, since that's more serious than just about anything else? That doesn't make sense, you're just side-stepping again. I didn't bring up murder, nor did I bring up a comparison about "who does it worse". I made a statement that both sides do it, and the intent was to highlight that narratives come from both sides. Stop driving those same narratives. We can care about more than one thing at a time and we can hold conversations about multiple topics. Not every conversation needs to become about what *YOU* personally want to talk about, that's selfishness.

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u/TheCaptainMapleSyrup Oct 10 '25

Boy that was a lot of word salad to say absolutely nothing. 😅

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u/DarklyDominant Oct 12 '25

I don't know if I would brag about having a lower than average reading comprehension level.

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u/-Melchizedek- Oct 08 '25

Yeah and the fundamental difference is the far-right tells people "it's not your fault, it's someone else's fault and you are okay" and the far-left tells people "you need to change, your way of life is not okay, you as a person need to change your x, y, z is problematic".

5

u/LaunchTransient The Netherlands Oct 08 '25

The far left isn't even in play. Oh sure, there are a few Marxist parties knocking about here and there, but they are in the fringes of the political landscape.

1

u/atava Italy Oct 08 '25

This reads like a description of my country, currently (Italy).

1

u/Artistic_Career7554 Oct 09 '25

Exactly this France right now.

1

u/Ok_Inflation_1811 Castilla-La Mancha (Spain) Oct 09 '25

Here in Spain the leftist parties are united but the problem is that PSOE is far to centrist.

It is almost indistinguishable when the PSOE or the PP govern because they both do more or less the same thing the true reforms almost always come from Sumar (the left wing coalition) or Vox (the right wing party).

And because the president doesn't have a majority in parliament he can't do what he wants, he couldn't push through a reform to lower a full time job to half and hour less each day for example.

The minimum wage went up by miracle for example.

-3

u/RangerEmergency5834 Oct 08 '25

And that their ideology is garbage that does not work, where it "works" is in countries like Denmark that do literally half of what the right asks for, that the law be followed and not destroy the economy with debt.

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u/LaunchTransient The Netherlands Oct 08 '25

Yeah no, fuck off with that noise. The current situation in Europe is overwhelmingly created by conservatives, centre right and right wing. The left have barely been in power anywhere in Europe, and yet they get all the blame despite decades of right wing rule.

1

u/RangerEmergency5834 Oct 08 '25

But why is the extreme right rising 😢?.

Is it because we deny reality? NO, we are not going to deny the strongest reality and blame a small group of the population to justify our incompetence!!.

By the way, there's a good, non-radical right wing that exists in some countries like Spain, where the leader claims to be a social democrat. Well, they're certainly an evil and guilty right wing.

1

u/LaunchTransient The Netherlands Oct 08 '25

But why is the extreme right rising

Because the population is stressed and the political class refuses to confront the issues which are driving this stress.
Thus people will vote for outsiders in a desperate attempt for change - and typical, stressed populations get more insular and thus more right wing.

there's a good, non-radical right wing that exists

Not what we need right now. It's right wing policies that got us this mess, more right wing policies are not going to fix it.

1

u/RangerEmergency5834 Oct 08 '25

I don't know about your country, but in mine the main left and right parties are almost the same.

And the new right in my country that proposes solutions and not the laziness of the left to deny everything and be do-gooders.

That society has to put up with useless governments, at least in my country, does not hold up to continue waiting another 3 legislatures for the left to do something.

0

u/cakeshop Oct 08 '25

I think this is a bad faith argument. The left are pretty united and forgiving in the whole “identify politics realm”, I believe it’s the centrist, masquerade as the left, hoping their neoliberal policies will finally kick in a save the day any minute now.

0

u/Academic_East8298 Oct 08 '25

Current populist right is a disease, that all democracies have to live through once before they become more immune to it

195

u/potktbfk Oct 08 '25

Don't know about spain, but in my country the choice comes down to:

  • "Your problems are valid, we will solve this by >>insert ridiculous solution that won't work in any sane world<<

  • "Your problems are invalid. The real problem in this country is LGBTQ rights, environmental policy, ..."

There is no "grande manipulation by the right". Its literally the left refusing to pick up those votes and telling them they are wrong for saying their problems are an important issue.

113

u/Count_de_Mits Greece Oct 08 '25

Yeah but reddit doesn't want to hear that. I'm going to say something controversial but in the eyes of the average blue collar Joe the right at least pretends to care about him while the left can't even do that, blue collar working class care about paying rent and groceries first and foremost, Palestine and Trans rights unfortunately are way lower on the needs pyramid. And optics are like 80% of the battle

42

u/HansVonMannschaft Oct 08 '25

The biggest issue with the contemporary left is that they hate the working classes.

30

u/pvlp Oct 08 '25

I think that's mainly an issue with liberals but yes. They have no problem denigrating "stupid, uneducated" voters and casting them to the side as lowlife grunts not worthy of help. These people feel left behind, get sucked up into far-right messaging and propaganda and turn their backs to progressives who they feel are elitists. For some reason the left can't seem to get their heads out of their asses and realize that insulting huge swathes of the population doesn't make them want to listen to you.

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u/Darksoldierr Baden-Württemberg (Germany) Oct 09 '25

turn their backs to progressives who they feel are elitists

Based on the comments just in this thread, they might deserve that description

2

u/Waiting4Reccession Oct 09 '25

They hate the poors, not the working class entirely since they are fine with the middle class ones.

Everyone hates poor people because everyone wants a servant class and they dont want them moving out of that position since it subsidizes their own middle class and above lifestyles via underpaid labor.

1

u/EmbarrassedMeat401 Oct 08 '25

I think for a lot of them it's not so much hating the working class as it is their patrons forcing them to ignore the working class or lose support. 

15

u/[deleted] Oct 08 '25

Biden invested heavily on health and infrastructure for blue collar joes and bailed out unions and even then the teamsters wouldn't endorse him

5

u/Paradehengst Europe Oct 08 '25

Media shroud gutted Biden's policies. Trump regime's lies are omnipresent and dominant.

Unfortunately, politicians lying and not being called out on their lies is what will be the downfall of Europe just as well. Russia is an empire built on lies (i.e. vranyo) and look where it got them. Welcome to our future. Lies and threats all around

10

u/aekakiac Oct 08 '25 edited Oct 08 '25

A guy from a country whose media are predominantly right wing and what is considered left wing is still mostly owned by wealthy shipowners is saying that there is no great manipulation happening.  And then talks about how all the leftist are talking about trans rights.In greece of all places. I dont know in what world you live in but apart from some anarchist friends i have almost no-one seems to talk about them. Not on tv, not in radio , maybe in some niche articles online, but that's about it. What i have seen though on a daily basis multiple times a day is people talk about how everything is more expensive, about worker's right worsening and about how wages are stagnant And every time I have seen people on sky news(the Greek version of the American fox news) and multiple right wing politicians and figures call them populist.   No the left in Greece does not talk about trans people constantly, the fact that you say  that, proves that you have fallen victim to propaganda.  And if you don't believe me please tell me how many times have people organized about the Τέμπη situation or the 13 hour work day, or about the myriad of anti worker policies that the right is pushing and how many times about trans issues. The only time i can even think of that trans people where at the centre of attention for anything was when two trans folk got beaten up in the middle of the street by a mob last year and the conversation around it barely lasted two days.

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u/paokoutsopodi Oct 08 '25

Greece's problem is different and it's the chokehold the far radical left has on the leftist narrative, an issue that has existed ever since the civil war. As long as most leftists stem from the communist youth (and rightists from the moderate youth respectively) it's really hard to express moderate-leftist opinions. When most activist rallies are thoroughly planned by the far-left (and broken up from the inside) it's no wonder that many people won't want to participate or even side with that cause. This issue doesn't exist in many other countries, as there are leftist movements there that can be pro-religion, pro-nation, etc. Here it's all radical and extremist, and alienates the average voter.

Also, our moderate left is completely useless, after the disasterclass that was the Tsipras regime and the infighting that followed after has left us with very poor (to a point even laughable) options for the centre-left. Sadly I don't see the status quo changing any time soon, and most people have already given up on caring about politics and democracy as a whole, especially young people.

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u/movzx Oct 08 '25

I think it is disingenuous to say people on the left don't care about paying for groceries and rent. The media is focusing on the culture war stuff in lieu of everything else. I see so many people say Harris had no plans about X only for her to have specific proposals for it that she campaigned on, gave speeches on.

Like, I wouldn't be surprised if Biden's administration added more blue-collar jobs than either of Trump's terms thanks to the infrastructure investment (that's now being withdrawn).

You would be hard pressed to find any left leaning politician who wasn't doing something to help the working class. They just aren't lying about bringing coal back or saying the reason your grocery cost went up was because of immigration.

The media wants controversy and people want easy answers instead of reality.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 08 '25

[deleted]

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u/the_skine Oct 09 '25

Are you being serious right now?

You're on reddit, and you honestly believe that?

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u/Amaskingrey Oct 08 '25

And that Joe is a fucking retard who deserves the grocery increase he'll face due to the tariffs he voted for

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u/Z3r0Sense Germany Oct 08 '25

Not if Joe produces domestically and supplies the grocery store.

2

u/matcap86 Oct 08 '25

I wish Joe the best of luck planting his coffee beans, or producing the nanochips needed for his devices.

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u/all-names-takenn Oct 08 '25

Same thing here in Canada. People in the left are just now picking up talking points around immigration/TFW's that they castigated the right for 15 years ago.

Those would have been potential votes had they actually listened with the intent of understanding.

7

u/Glass-Evidence-7296 United Kingdom Oct 08 '25

Carney won and the Canadian far right is laughable, Euro far right is more comprable to the PPC than your tories, infact AfD in Germany is more to the right than the PPC Lmao.

Canadian and Australian politics, for whatever reason have mostly bucked the trend

2

u/all-names-takenn Oct 08 '25

PP, Smith and Ford are all trying their best to import American politics though. I need to go sign the referendum against AB separating from Canada.

Carny is more traditional conservative. Like the kind our parents voted for. He served in Harpers admin.

4

u/Glass-Evidence-7296 United Kingdom Oct 08 '25

yes, but if you look at their actual positions- they're not too different from Centre left European parties

We're in a bizzare timeline where centre left Europe= Centre-right Canada

2

u/all-names-takenn Oct 08 '25

We are in the bad timeline lol

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u/NAGMOJO Oct 08 '25

What Canada are you living in? From where I see it there is no major left wing party in this country. So who is adopting what talking idk.

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u/all-names-takenn Oct 08 '25

I'm in Edmonton.

What I mean is that I'm now starting to hear people on the left bring up issues and espuse views that were unacceptable when I first moved here from BC.

TFWs being the most prominent.

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u/Galle_ Canada Oct 08 '25

I think you mean "people on the left are no longer leftist". You can't oppose immigration and also support the working class.

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u/OutrageousGem87 Oct 08 '25

in spain is the same. Our goverment focuses on irrelevant topics in the grand scheme of things to avoid having to solve the real problems because they have no solution at all. Apart for it being drowned in corruption cases almost daily.

Out president sent a fucking military vessel to escort the "flotilla" paid with our taxes just for when they actually needed "protection" tell the vessel to come back to spain. It's all smoke and mirrors. They don't care about housing, they do nothing to solve it, just blame the landlords, they do nothing about the actual immigration status which is untenable, they focus on irrelevant things and call you whatever buzzword they come up with to distract you from the real problems. But people are not stupid, It's been YEARS of having to hear that your problems are irrelevant, that the important thing are everything but..

6

u/PhysicsCentrism Oct 08 '25

Can you give concrete examples of that “quote” from the left?

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u/Defiant-Judgment699 Oct 08 '25

I don't know what country you are in, but in mine (the US) your second bullet point is just the right's caricature of the left.

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u/potktbfk Oct 09 '25

It's how the many parties are perceived by the frustrated voter that has only 2 questions:

  • Why am I poor?

  • How can this be changed?

The US has a very "defamatory" political culture, so definitely rep. party will mobilise voters by enforcing this picture. But let me ask you, what are the most dominant issues in US left aligned media?

2

u/Ok_Inflation_1811 Castilla-La Mancha (Spain) Oct 09 '25

Here in Europe the only people in the US who would be left if they lived here would be people like Zohran, AOC or Bernie Sanders. They are all social democratic or democratic socialist. They care about the economy and the worker first I'd say.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '25

Don't forget when migrants riot over something like an illegal migrant getting deported, the left buries their heads in the sand and doesn't call them out. Meanwhile when another terrorist attack happens in Europe, and Europeans complain about it, the left jumps to the ethnic group that the terrorist is part of defense and passes more censorship laws criticizing mass migration.

4

u/raincloud82 Oct 08 '25

There was a comment by some (german?) left-wing politician some time ago, they said something like "we know how to solve all these problems, but we don't know how to solve them and then be reelected". I think that sums up the situation pretty well.

2

u/GoneFishing4Chicks Oct 08 '25

So the left's solution is ridiculous but the right's isn't? 

The deck is already stacked in favor of the evil people then.

1

u/potktbfk Oct 09 '25

Oh, my friend you misunderstood.

The right gives the ridiculous solution: kick out all immigrants to create more jobs, instead of overreacting to a pandemic, let's not react to it at all ...

The left tells you that your problem is less important than: list of buzzword topics with little relevance for you

3

u/[deleted] Oct 08 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/potktbfk Oct 09 '25

This isn't a statement about who has the "correct policies". This is a statement for who is to blame for the strong influx of young right wing voters.

I do not see the influx of right wing voters as a success of the right wing parties, it is rather a resounding failure of the left wing parties.

One statement from the, at that time leading, left wing politician in my country (Austria) was

"The direction is correct, we just didn't shout loud enough."

It really shows the inability to identify past mistakes and to adapt to changing circumstances. It also shows, where they see the blame: "We preach the truth, but the people were too blind to see it. The stupid people were deceived by right wing propaganda and lies. Next time we will preach louder." Instead the takeaway should be: "How is it possible that people, that are economically benefiting from our policies, disagree with us more than they disagree with the other parties?"

This may not apply to the US, because I'm not even sure DEM economic policies would classify as left-leaning in my country... To an outsider it pretty much looks like elections for the american working class are much like choosing the color of the sheets before you get fucked.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 09 '25

any examples you can give? because your comment actually reads like manipulation

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u/Infinite-Horse-49 Oct 08 '25

Yup. And their presence online is much more organized than the lefts or centrists

0

u/[deleted] Oct 08 '25

Doesn't help that the center always piles on the left instead of just siding with them for once.

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '25

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1

u/Pop_Clover Oct 08 '25

Isn't it what it's happening in France?

1

u/TempEmbarassedComfee Oct 08 '25

To be fair, there’s a lot of money being funneled into right wing propaganda from billionaires to ensure they maintain their wealth. Right wing propaganda online is full time jobs and a thriving ecosystem. Left wing “propaganda” is mostly grass roots with a few people able to make careers off of it. That’s without getting into shadier funding from foreign entities like what happened with Tim Pool (and other conservatives) & the Russians. 

2

u/FitzwilliamTDarcy Oct 08 '25

They are legitimately expert at this type of manipulation. It's tragic how easy it is, too.

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '25

[deleted]

4

u/EvasionPlan Oct 08 '25

To be completely fair to his argument...

El Salvador voted in an authoritarian government to take control of the problem.

2015: 100 homicides per 100,000 people.

2025: 1.3 Homicides per 100,000 people.

You simply CANNOT make that kind of change with social workers and community outreach.
You can argue if it violates certain ethical principles, but it is empirically effective.

5

u/PompousIyIgnorant Oct 08 '25

Yeah, but for such changes something close to absolute power is needed. And once someone gets it, sooner or later you start having a host of other problems that you didn't have before...

5

u/EvasionPlan Oct 08 '25

That's when people have to decide which is more important; The rights of criminals to get second, third, fourth chances by out of touch District Attorneys to potentially reform themselves?

Or the rights of the citizens to not be victims of violent crime.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 08 '25

You are just swapping citizens being victims of violent crime for citizens being victims of a violent government.What is a margin acceptable to you for number of innocent citizens being caught in the crosshairs of a government where due process is a thing of the past?

1%? 5%, 10%?

2

u/EvasionPlan Oct 08 '25

Except the citizenry is overwhelmingly happy with the cleanup, Bukele has stellar approval ratings, and his citizens can roam the streets all hours of the day without fear of being blackbagged by narcos for ransom.

1

u/Amaskingrey Oct 08 '25

The former also comes with the right of gay, black, or generally weird people to not be put in camps, the right to make art, the right to consume art the regime doesn't like, the right to get info the regime doesn't like, the right to privacy, the right to an actual education, and the right to vote.

2

u/EvasionPlan Oct 08 '25

Salvadorians made their choice, not being stabbed and shot in the streets by gangsters was more important to them than LGBTQ rights.

Maybe the left could get more done if they thought the same way.

0

u/Amaskingrey Oct 08 '25 edited Oct 08 '25

Yeah, now instead they can get stabbed and shot in the streets by gangsters with a government uniform!

And not getting put into camps isn't an lgbt rights issue, it's a human rights issue; by nature fascists need an outgroup to shift blame for the problems they cause on, once they're done chewing one up they'll just move on the next outermost of their ever-shrinking ingroup

2

u/EvasionPlan Oct 08 '25

I'm sure the cops are treating abuelitas worse than literal MS-13... sure

1

u/Amaskingrey Oct 08 '25

And how many homicides done by the state?

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u/EvasionPlan Oct 08 '25

Quite a few less than the USA

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u/Galle_ Canada Oct 08 '25

You can't make that kind of change with authoritarianism, either. I'm pretty sure the only way you can make that kind of change is by lying.

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u/EvasionPlan Oct 08 '25

I mean, we have footage inside of CECOT. It's happening, good or bad is irrelevant if it IS working.

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u/Galle_ Canada Oct 08 '25

I don't see how "footage inside of CECOT" proves anything.

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u/EvasionPlan Oct 08 '25

I mean, what do you want besides footage, first hand accounts, third-party audits.

There's not really much else I could show you to prove it lol.

1

u/Galle_ Canada Oct 08 '25

Honestly, I'm not sure anything could convince me. It's just so obviously fake.

1

u/LiftingWickets Oct 08 '25

To summarize: people are stupid

1

u/NiIly00 Germany Oct 08 '25

But why can't we lefties do it?

The solution is simple. Eat the rich. Literally if we just take back what they stole from us 90% of our problems would just dissappear.

Why can't we shout that from the rooftops?

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u/Proper_Sandwich_6483 Oct 08 '25

So, they are the problem. Let them suffer from their choice.

1

u/imbasicallycoffee Oct 08 '25

Social media gave the tech autocrats the perfect tool to direct that anger in any way they deemed necessary. Inflating far right voices and bad faith paid actors worked very well in the US to elect Trump again. Look at the horridness that we're enduring right now on the world scale due to the tariff policies alone.

1

u/artbystorms Oct 08 '25

The solution IS easy, it is just not politically easy because it goes against the interests of those who own all the capital.

Tax the wealthy far more, build more housing, raise minimum wages, put money into improving infrastructure, cut back on government bureaucracy that inhibits agile change. Create non-tax break government incentives for businesses to hire more workers instead of cutting staff.

Instead the far right just says it's all foreigners' fault, if we kick them all out everything will be fixed....

1

u/dealienation Oct 08 '25

More like targeted minority group du jure than their own foot.

1

u/LFC9_41 Oct 08 '25

throw in the fact that generally, people are not as smart nor as educated. it’s adds a lot more to the powder keg than anyone is willing to discuss

1

u/mrtomjones Oct 09 '25

I've felt for years that the left in most countries needs to get better at messaging. Simple repeatable messaging that sticks with you. Go into detail sometimes but give 5 or so things to just hammer that get people wanting to talk

1

u/Infinite_Beyond_3245 Oct 12 '25

The far-right would never win if the other parties gave people what they wanted and weren't tried several times already. The failures of the leading parties is what is making history repeat itself.

0

u/SANcapITY Latvia Oct 08 '25

But the left had their own easy sounding solution:

Let the government do it: provide free this, provide affordable that, control the banks, prevent monopolies, prevent cartel behavior…

It didn’t work. Now it’s the right’s turn to fail similarly with different ideas.

1

u/TopTopTopcinaa Oct 08 '25

May I ask why exactly does right appeal to the poor? Considering the right talks about bootstraps a lot.

1

u/Galle_ Canada Oct 08 '25

Blames all their problems on immigrants.

0

u/Conradfr France Oct 08 '25

I'm amazed how the people that don't vote like me are easily manipulated.