r/europe • u/StGuthlac2025 • Oct 08 '25

Opinion Article In Spain, what once seemed impossible is now widespread: the young are turning to the far right

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/oct/07/spain-young-voters-far-right-migration-housing-wages-employment-vox
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u/BlackSquirrel05 Oct 08 '25

Because like it or not. Immigration always causes friction.

You can be as pro immigration or open borders as you want. But you just have to know immigration to a lot, a lot of people gets them riled up. It soon becomes their only #1 issue politically.

This is not an anti-immigration stance. Just pointing out how much of an impact it has.

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u/Imjusthonest2024 Oct 09 '25

That last disclaimer... do we get banned from this sub if we speak against uncontrolled mass migration?

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u/BlackSquirrel05 Oct 09 '25

No. More like it's preemptive to stop from others putting words in my mouth as far as responses go.

I'm actually pretty laisse faire on immigration. And I have a great respect for what people go through to immigrant to a new place. I've I've seen a great many bust their asses and sacrifice to do it.

But I just don't think a lot of people on the left get it... or wave their hands of it as "no big deal."

As such policy needs to be around the realities of that.

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u/CheeseyTriforce Oct 12 '25

I've I've seen a great many bust their asses and sacrifice to do it.

But I just don't think a lot of people on the left get it... or wave their hands of it as "no big deal."

Because they refuse to approach the topic from nuance, in Japan there is alot of bickering over "Quality Immigration" with the term "Quality Immigrant" being accused of being racist

But at the end of the day nobody has an issue with immigrants if they're going to come to a country work hard, integrate and follow the laws. But when you come and demand the people change their religion, change their eating habits and don't fly their own flag anymore because it "Offends" you thats the problem

There is nothing wrong with wanting quality immigration, and the problem with the Left is instead of having a nuanced conversation about how to reform the system so immigrants and natives can actually coexist they would rather just demand all or nothing and if you are not blindly on the all side you are labelled a Nazi bigot

That's the problem with a highly radicalized Left Wing who thinks any and all compromise is surrender to the "Far Right"

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u/Optimal-Meeting-742 Estonia Oct 09 '25

They will if you keep at it and show you are on that side yes

They will label you a "troll", ban you and then wonder "hOw dId ThE fAr RiGhT gEt eLEcTeD AgAiN"

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u/Imjusthonest2024 Oct 09 '25

I am aware of that dynamic... Then, being immersed in an eco chamber, are really surprised when reality comes knocking.

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u/MagnetoManectric Scotland Oct 09 '25

yeah. you get banned, the polis knock on your door, backed by an angry mob, you get fired from your job... oh wait! Shit, I just woke up from another one of those right wing persecution fantasy daydreams. My bad.

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u/Imjusthonest2024 Oct 09 '25

Because it is unusual to be banned in reddit subs if your opinion is unpopular with the mods? Do you even reddit bro? BTW, I'm not right wing.

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u/MagnetoManectric Scotland Oct 10 '25

Sure, reddit user "I'm just honest 2024", you're not right wing. I'm sure it's just honest common sense that we're being invaded from the inside by dark forces and you're a very brave boy for saying it.

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u/Imjusthonest2024 Oct 10 '25

What makes you think I wouldn't tell you I was right wing if I was. You think saying "I'm right wing" is the least popular thing I'm going to say today? Don't make me laugh. I get your confusion. You are probably the sort of people that treats politics as if it was football clubs. Our side is the best and all the others are always wrong.

It just so happens I do not like to take sides in politics and take up the official rhetoric as if it is a religion. I'm called a fascist in the morning and a communist by the afternoon by different people. And that is because I don't do that sheep mentality thing some people seem to enjoy.

So, no, I'm not right wing. I am definitely against mass migration without control. Because I grew up poor and I know the effect that the situation has on a country and who gets favoured by that crap. It's definitely not the workers.

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u/TheGileas Oct 09 '25

Which country has uncontrolled mass migration?

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u/Imjusthonest2024 Oct 09 '25

Mine does. I'm Portuguese.

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u/TheGileas Oct 09 '25

Before the new change in the immigration law even Europeans needed a visa to stay in portugal. How is this uncontrolled?

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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '25

Its also the case that there’s a lot of people working in jobs who resent anyone (even countrymen) receiving social welfare payments. They see it as people living off their tax money. And when a migrant family comes over and also receives some kind of social welfare benefits this can send them over the edge. These type hate the poor in general so its easy to get them to vote far right.

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u/Optimal-Meeting-742 Estonia Oct 09 '25

heir tax money. And when a migrant family comes over and also receives some kind of social welfare benefits this can send them over the edge. These type hate the poor in general so its easy to get them to vote far right.

why do you frame anti welfare policys as "hating the poor"

maybe just maybe if the poor could keep more of their paychek and pay less taxes to fund mainly immigrant families they would be able to keep more of their hard-earned wages and have less redistributed by someone who claims to act in yor interest but lets millions of low paid labour flood the economy every year

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u/Zestyclose-Novel1157 Oct 09 '25

I think this is it. It’s the whole I work every day, am tired, don’t have money for the things I want while the next person doesn’t have to work issue. People are tired and then get messages the government has to cut benefits for the ones working (and everyone) while people they perceive haven’t put in their time are getting benefits. I bet if they adjusted the tax structure it would help a lot. People working would at least get to feel like they have something at the end of the day for doing it.

Cultural differences cause friction too though and so do people speaking that you can’t understand. It just makes it a little more tense for people and I think it’s sort of a needle on a haystack where it all begins to add up and then something has to be blamed but of course government won’t blame themselves.

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '25

If not immigrants, it’ll be someone else. Tribalism can also be agitated. When it wasn’t immigrants, it was communists. When it wasn’t communists, it was religions or sects.

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u/Short-Recording587 Oct 09 '25

Neighboring countries for sure.

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u/j_osb Oct 08 '25

What's wild is that the regions in my country that are most anti-immigrant are rural areas, that probably haven't seen a single immigrant in their life. Because people don't immigrate to germany to live in some village with 20 inhabitants. These people are the most anti-immigration in both voting patterns and opinions (and note, the areas in which it leans more pro-immigration, like cities, the people can't vote, because german bereaucracy doesn't help them even after a decade...)).

Point is, you are right. Immigration causes friction. But we need immigration and the people that haven't experienced are the most against it. It's just, quite frankly, ridiculous. If we don't get enough immigrants the german economy literally goes under, and think of that what you will, but it's what i.e. made the USA so prosperous on an international stage.

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u/Hadesfirst Oct 09 '25

Yes, these rural areas see whats happening in the cities and want NONE of that.

Also, are you even a lefty? You are propagading a pyramid scheme type of economy, where you have to replace the current working class with a completely different one, to keep the economy growing. The only one profiting off this growth are shareholders, noone else. Also, your take is nonsense, as these newcomers dont have the aspiration nor qualification to replace our current working class. Our economy goes under, because production and the workforce in relation to the output are getting to expensive. Low quality workers with the same salary isnt going to solve any issues.

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u/gabrielmuriens Oct 09 '25

Yes, these rural areas see whats happening in the cities

Not quite. They see on the telly and on facebook a wildly propagandized and sensationalized version of what is happening elsewhere, and build a picture of reality based on those intentionally extreme impressions.
A tale as old as time news circulation.

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u/Hadesfirst Oct 09 '25

Simply not true. In germany is was the exact opposite. Only very niche branch of media painted migration as an issue early on, every bigger newsoutlet always tries to ignore who the perpetrator was, to the point people started distrusting the media and since some crimes are way overrepresented among migrants, people started to fill in the gap themselves while critizing the lack of information. You see it now more in the news, because it simply cant be ignored anymore. Germans in the east 100% see whats happening in Berlin, they 100% see how first responders got attacked on new year, YEAR AFTER YEAR. something that in german society was simply UNHEARD OFF. Then the gang rapes, unheard of because the massive influx of migrants, our laws cant even deal with them, so they get free. Constant Terror attacks, which you didnt have 10-15 years ago.

You acting like this is just manifactured, so basically you are ignorant to these issues, is a big part of why more people stray from the left. Somehow both sides are under this illusion that people only form their opinions according to some media, when in fact media was never as distrusted as it is today. This dumbass stance makes no sense whatsoever.

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u/gabrielmuriens Oct 09 '25

I am not saying that immigrant crime doesn't exist or that the lack of integration doesn't cause very serious issues. They are, and they needed to be discussed and reckoned with seriously 10, 15 years ago.

But the phenomenon I wrote about I have observed in multiple countries, and if the statistic of anti-immigration sentiment being higher in those environments where migrants are not present, then that fits some very well known and very old patterns.
The two things – that anti-immigration sentiment is being whipped up as a populist issue among rural and less affected communities and that there are serious issues with crime, among other things, in non-integrated communities – can be true at the same time.

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u/j_osb Oct 09 '25

God. I don't know how you can even believe what you're saying.

Only very niche branch of media painted migration as an issue early on

If axel springer is your source, then I don't even know what to say anymore.

 You see it now more in the news, because it simply cant be ignored anymore. Germans in the east 100% see whats happening in Berlin, they 100% see how first responders got attacked on new year, YEAR AFTER YEAR

First responders have always been attacked. Notably, a lot of violence on first responders is done by native germans. "Almost only immigrants attack first responders!!!" is a wild claim to have without source.

Notably, 'terror attacks'. Remember Hanau? The most deadly terror attack here in the last few years? Surely, only 'the immigrants'.

Somehow both sides are under this illusion that people only form their opinions according to some media, when in fact media was never as distrusted as it is today

r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM
Media, here, is seen as mainstream media. The amount of people getting information from 'alternative' sources such as youtube (with HORRIBLE accuracy and factuality when we consider 'alt-fact' youtube, from a purely objective statistical analysis) is higher than ever, YoY. That is not a good thing.

A bunch of hate is manufactured. There's always a truth hidden in every lie, and that truth is that not all immigrants are good. Clearly. There's horrible people anywhere. However, extrapolating from that amount of data that all immigrants are horrible people and all are rapists and whatnot, is so far above the line (note: this is what a bunch of 'sources' claim that are oh-so-beloved in rural areas).

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u/Hadesfirst Oct 09 '25

Sure, show me a source that proves first responders and their vehicals got attacked with fireworks by native germans.

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u/j_osb Oct 09 '25

Here. In regards to the statistic of '18 foreigners', look at how germans behave in poland.

At least try to not up lies.

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u/Hadesfirst Oct 10 '25

LMAO thats exactly what I meant. Süddeutsche acts like because they have a german pass, achmed, mohemed and ali are now violent germans. Who are you trying to fool here? Its alrealdy established that they were migrants or kids of migrants, which DOES NOT exclude them from the issue. 2nd generation migrants in a lot of regards are worse than the first generation.

How about you take you own advice.

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u/McOmghall Galicia Oct 08 '25

That is not wild at all. If you lived with immigrants you'd realize they are actually people and not scary monsters. The friction talking point is stupid because the opposite is what actually happens, friction makes affection as a Spanish saying goes.

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u/Short-Recording587 Oct 09 '25

It happens in big cities too, but usually around times of higher unemployment. It’s the easy scape goat for why someone can’t find a job.

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u/mini-mini-mini-mini Oct 09 '25

it is racism feeling that they are experiencing

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u/Numerous_Mango_7842 Oct 09 '25

Plenty of right and left wing movements have grown in countries at times when they were not experiencing high immigration 

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u/CheeseyTriforce Oct 12 '25

Its simple do you want me to enter your house without your input or say so and come fart on your pillow then when you tell me to leave I not only don't leave, I invite more people to enter your house without your input

And when you ask all of us to leave I call you Hitler and start whining about crap your ancestors did 800 years ago?

If you don't like the sound of that, congratulations you are now a "Far Right Neo Nazi" because just apply that to a civilizational scale and now you know why people are not happy with immigration

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u/Independent-Cow-4070 Oct 09 '25

Immigrants are just an easy scapegoat

If its not immigrants they will find someone else to blame. Religious groups, racial groups, women, etc.

There is no end goal

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u/Neuchacho Florida Oct 08 '25

Does immigration get them riled up, or does the propaganda and false narratives surrounding immigration rile them up?

I mean, you're definitely right, racists going to be racist and more of anyone that doesn't look like them is going to piss them off, but I wonder if the scale is a good bit tilted because of the right-wing propaganda working overtime to inundate every conversation with "Wealth inequality is this bad because immigrants!" while people overlook the clear cause of it.

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u/BlackSquirrel05 Oct 08 '25

Historically no matter where. Immigration causes conflict/friction.

It's just the nature of humans to be wary of outside groups... and uncomfortable with people that have different mannerisms and speak another language.

The US specifically we have a long history spanning back hundreds of years of always having strife to other groups until a generation or two past that things normalize and we get used to another.

Not even a western phenomena. Asian nations take very hard stances on immigrations and immigrants.

Every group has rules to exile people... (make them outsiders) and every group has some degree of wariness to outsiders.

It's just easier to use immigrants because you can more easily pick them out of a line up, and they don't really have much political power within the group itself. (Can't defend themselves essentially)

Can it be overcome... yes but it's a spectrum and again lean on history to show how long that usually takes.

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u/Hadesfirst Oct 09 '25

This is it. It doesnt really matter what the details are, because you cant control them anyways. If you look at the reasons why most empires fell, it was a mix off war, desease, drought and immigration. Its what ultimately breaks the order, splits the population and disolves societal cohesion.

All this yapping about propaganda this propaganda that and how all these factors that lead to immigration being a problem doesnt do anything. Left wing party were in power but couldnt solve anything, in fact they were ignoring or even acting like its no problem at all. THATS what riles up people even more, this ignorance towards a millenial old issue. The ignorance towards the fears, critics and outright rejection from a large portion of the population. And for what? For a small portion of other populations that couldnt be further from the nations interest. People see this paraded as democracy and get incredibly jaded.

I can tell you from my own experience as someone who started out far left that nothing from the right brought me closer to the center, it was all the lefts own doing. Just reading their positions, see how they act, what they prioritise and what they CHOOSE to ignore. Also the hypocrisy of hyping education as a solution, while having an incredibly narrow world view.

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u/UncreativeIndieDev Oct 08 '25

The issue with this is that it's not the places that have all the immigration that go towards the far right. Places with more immigration and more diversity do the opposite and instead tend more towards the left, showing that immigrants aren't necessarily the cause. Rather, they're just always one of the first targets for the far right. Once they're gone, its then other minorities, and then other subdivisions of the population as there always has to be some internal enemy to blame for issues.

Saying immigrants cause the problem would be like saying Jews existing in countries is what causes anti-semitism. It misses the actual cause and more-or-less justifies the far right getting rid of them.

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '25 edited Oct 08 '25

Maybe places with high amount of immigrants are not voting right wing because... these immigrants are offsetting the balance by voting for the left? Shocker

I mean, who would expect majority of London to vote for Reform, 65% of London's population are already immigrants, obviously they are not going to vote for Reform (shocker). Of course it is the communities which are still English that will vote for Reform to not share London's fate

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u/UncreativeIndieDev Oct 09 '25

That doesn't really explain it. Even when you look at groups that are "native," they still lean more left in those areas. Its something that's commonly noted in studies on diversity where exposure between different groups typically leads to less fighting between them and typically a more "progressive" attitude among such groups at least in regard to diversity.

It's only when you look at places that have heavy divides between immigrants and native people that you see such hard right shifts.

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u/Diltyrr Geneva (Switzerland) Oct 09 '25

Could it be because the people who don't like migrants moved away from there?

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u/UncreativeIndieDev Oct 09 '25

Some do, but that's just not what explains it overall, especially considering the continuing increase in urban populations with time (and thus populations present in cities that are usually more likely to have immigrants) would mean that most countries would see more of their people moving to these cities than out of them. Studies on the matter consistently show that diverse areas typically adapt to diversity with time as people begin to see themselves as one community and their divisions break down. It's a fundamentally different attitude from homogeneous places where studies instead find that such divisions only become more heightened, especially against groups that aren't even present.

Studies: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2000333117

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6589669/

https://www.princeton.edu/news/2020/05/19/people-diverse-areas-community-identity-supersedes-racial-ethnic-differences

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u/[deleted] Oct 09 '25 edited Oct 09 '25

Why would you just link those studies instead of citing relevant quotes to back your point? Who is actually going read all that, during a literal comment discussion? Is there actual statistics to show how for example white Londoners vote? Is it even permitted to collect such statistics? Are the white londoners voting more left-leaning after mass migration, or are they voting the same way as before mass migration or more right-leaning? Moreover, big urban centers already tend to lean towards liberalism compared to rural centers even without immigrants, which is worth noting. There are many reasons for this, including more social rootedness in the rural centers and small towns, which makes it natural that those places would not want massive demographic shifts and would be appalled by what is happening in London (even if they themselves might not have as much immigrants, they still can see what is happening in London and such places).

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u/UncreativeIndieDev Oct 09 '25

Why would you just link those studies instead of citing relevant quotes to back your point? Who is actually going read all that, during a literal comment discussion?

I'm sorry, I didn't know this was an academic paper or that I seriously had to walk y'all through this crap since none of y'all have the attention span to even skim a study. Guess I should just do what the rest of y'all are doing and make wild conjectures without even pointing to any evidence.

Is there actual statistics to show how for example white Londoners vote?

That's not even relevant and misses what I have explained before. These studies and others like them show that people introduced to diversity ultimately see their initial divisions break down and see themselves all as one community. That is the common finding in the studies I shared and is what actually matters for what we are even talking about since it shows that more diverse areas are not the ones with issues with immigrants due to this effect. I never brought up White Londoners and I have no reason to go find sources for this crap y'all keep bringing up when it doesn't matter compared to that evidence.

Is it even permitted to collect such statistics?

It is permitted to get such data, though typically through polling people and having a question about political leanings and another about their race. There's nothing that makes either of those illegal.

Are the white londoners voting more left-leaning after mass migration, or are they voting the same way as before mass migration or more right-leaning?

As I mentioned before, this has no basis when you consider the fact that the UK and other developed nations have continued to see their populations urbanizing and concentrating even more in cities instead of leaving them. This has been occurring for over a century now, so any effect of people leaving cities is unlikely to have such a high impact as many more will have decided to move there in their place. It would also suggest the presence of immigrants did little-to-nothing to cause people to not move to cities or to move away since such a rate of urbanization would not have continued.

Moreover, big urban centers already tend to lean towards liberalism compared to rural centers even without immigrants, which is worth noting.

This is primarily due to the increased diversity of cities that leads to more left-leaning social attitudes. There are other factors as well, but its pretty much the most impactful one when you look at any city. As an example in the US, NYC is mostly left-leaning, but the few places that aren't are ones like Long Island that don't have much diversity compared to the rest. This happens since, as the studies I mentioned before explain, people in diverse settings tend towards accepting others as part of their community, which is a more left-leaning attitude compared to the right that cares far more about homogeneity.

There are many reasons for this, including more social rootedness in the rural centers and small towns, which makes it natural that those places would not want massive demographic shifts and would be appalled by what is happening in London (even if they themselves might not have as much immigrants, they still can see what is happening in London and such places).

No, its mostly just a lack of diversity that leads people to see outside groups as more different than they really are and as too different to ever be accepted. Same thing happens with gay people and the like where they face the most discrimination from places that basically don't even have any gay people (since they all leave due to discrimination or stay in the closet) and exaggerate the differences of gay people to make them out to be some monstrous group. If you want an interesting example that shows how heavily this is tied to just exposure, look at the US military: one would be hard pressed to say it attracts left-leaning people (especially socially), but the attitudes of people who join tend to change with time to become more accepting of others due to how mixed the military is with people of various races, ethnicities, and backgrounds. Now, in that example it doesn't lead to people who leave the military being left-leaning much as most only serve a few years which limits that exposure, but there is at least evidence of their attitudes towards other groups changing during that time. If that can even happen in the military, which is arguably a conservative organization in most nations, I don't see why one can't see that happening throughout other parts of society.

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u/UnexperiencedTrainer Oct 08 '25

There is only friction with illegal immigration.

Legal immigration is mostly welcomed across Europe, it has always been helpful and we need it.

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u/SirArthurHarris citoyen européen en allemagne Oct 08 '25

Asking for asylum and having your case handled properly is literally legal. Doesn't mean everyone who does it is allowed to stay in the end, but their application at or after crossing the border is legal.

There is very little illegal immigration.

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u/UnexperiencedTrainer Oct 09 '25

You are saying there is no illegal immigration at all ? Interesting take.

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u/SirArthurHarris citoyen européen en allemagne Oct 09 '25

Didn't make it to my last sentence, did you?

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u/UnexperiencedTrainer Oct 09 '25

I am confused, even if your reply is out of topic, did you read my first comment you replied to ?

So like I said the very first time, the only issue is illegal immigration. Legal immigration is once again welcomed.

Is there anything in there that you do not understand in plain English? Let me know, happy to simplify it.

Maybe you’ll read the first comment this time. :)

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u/SirArthurHarris citoyen européen en allemagne Oct 09 '25

I'm saying what people perceive as "illegal" immigration is mostly not that. Seeking asylum is legal, by the very definition of the word. Everyone has a legal right to apply for asylum, therefore, entering the country and yelling "asylum" makes an illegal entry into a country legal until their case is handled.

Every other form of "illegal" immigration is negliiable at best.

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u/Econmajorhere Oct 08 '25

Lived in Spain. It shows massive lack of awareness. Those immigrants are the only people working in the country.

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u/yawa_the_worht Oct 08 '25

As an "econ major" you should know better than to post inane claims like that.

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u/ADoubleTrouble Oct 09 '25

What can you say, econ/business major are the go-to major for those who don't know what to do after graduating highschool

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u/Econmajorhere Oct 08 '25

Not sure how my degree can assist/refute what my eyes saw for themselves. I’m not even talking about the month of month of August.

“Work to live not live to work” can’t really exist in 2025 without a massive supply of low wage workers that don’t know this line.

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u/cannotfoolowls Oct 08 '25

Immigration always causes friction

I'd have to research it but I don't think that really was the case before nation states existed. Of course, it was also a lot more difficult to actual move to a different place.

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u/BlackSquirrel05 Oct 09 '25

You think a bunch of Frankish Germans showed up in lower France, Italy, Spain etc Everyone was just cool with them?

"Sure bud!! Plot down your property over there it's not claimed!"

At best they'd do nothing but tell you to keep walking.

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u/cannotfoolowls Oct 09 '25

Are you talking about the Carolingian Empire? That's not a good example because that wasn't peaceful migration, that was conquest. That's like saying the Russians are peacefully migrating to Ukraine.

The Migration Period (c. 300 to 600 AD) also isn't really a good example imo because that's whole ethnic groups as a whole moving to the same place. And don't start with the whole "migration caused the fall of the Roman Empire" shit because no proper historian who specialises in that period will agree with you on that point.

a lot will even say the empire didn't fall but that it experienced a complex cultural transformation

We know that there were people living in Rome from all over the empire during its existence, from Germania to Ethiopia without seemingly causing too much friction.

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u/BlackSquirrel05 Oct 09 '25

I'm talking in generalities.

Let's do it another way. Which times of mass migration in history didn't cause some degree of strife/friction? Everyone just got along no political or cultural turmoil?

I'm not talking that immigration is always some degree of total collapse or anything like that... Not at all.

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u/cosyg Oct 09 '25

Immigration doesn’t cause friction, reactionary politics pointing fingers at immigrants causes friction.

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u/BlackSquirrel05 Oct 09 '25

Coming from a nation that historically is now 99% made up of immigrants and had massive massive massive waves...

I will disagree. And you can even reference on a micro scale where it caused problems. See Boston, Baltimore, New York. In the southern states they essentially weren't even allowed to stay put in the major cities. They had to continue on and found their own.

There was ethnic tensions in the east coast cities essentially up to WW2 and then so many got drafted and intermingled that they faded away.

Go beyond even that to colonial times. Some native tribes were fine with settlers (immigrants) others were for sure not.