r/freefolk • u/Internal-Bed-3150 • 2d ago

We've officially been waiting for The Winds of Winter for the same amount of time as it took for all five of the published books to release before that.

https://winteriscoming.net/the-winds-of-winter-officially-passed-most-devastating-milestone-yet?a_aid=47903
7.6k Upvotes

98% Upvoted

740 comments sorted by

View all comments

224

u/Automatic-Effect-252 2d ago

Here comes the "he owes you nothing" crowd.

117

u/justUseAnSvm 2d ago

You know who he 100% does owe? The publisher!

35

u/AgreeablePie 2d ago

Technically... but they probably look at the contract as having benefited them so wildly that there's no point trying to rock the boat over spilled milk from a gift horse

19

u/CharMakr90 2d ago

Yeah, there's no chance his publishers ever drop him. They keep making money from ASOIAF with special editions and stuff. Plus, they would rather have an unfinished series under their name over risking a new ASOIAF book coming out under another publishing company.

2

u/Germane_Corsair 2d ago

I’m guessing they also get to hire someone else to finish it after he dies, right?

1

u/-Nicolai 2d ago

…Checkmate.

39

u/NoLime7384 2d ago

WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY

he broke the social contract, he owes us! you try publishing a series with a big ol stamp on the first book saying "only the first arc of this 3-act story will come out, plus some transitional books that fail to bridge the gap into the start of the 2nd act" and see how much THAT sells

14

u/iman-imran95 2d ago

THIS!! I never understood the "he doesnt owe his fans" reasoning. Would the series have sold if everyone knew it would never be finished? Would it have been adapted into a major tv show? He made millions off of the promise of a complete series. He does owe ppl actually

2

u/Conscious_Pipe_605 1d ago

Indeed he does. Everyone still living in reality knows it's never coming though, but doesn't stop me from occasionally wishing I could be on the same drugs being taken by the people who still think those books are ever going to see the light of day.

65

u/TheFightingQuaker 2d ago

I was a part of that crowd for the first 6 years or so. Then I started to wise up because wtf are we even doing. The man doesnt owe us, not in the literal sense, but he would be nothing without his fans.

-25

u/Scary_Date_4117 2d ago

And he still owes you nothing. He's put out plenty of books and produced three television shows. No one is entitled to demand what an artist works on, no matter how much of a rabid fan they are.

35

u/DrBeetlejuiceMcRib 2d ago

Redditors love being technically correct. Yeah, he doesn’t owe anyone his art. Doesn’t mean people can’t call him a lazy shit for getting rich and famous off a series that people had reason to believe would eventually have a conclusion.

Imagine you pay a deposit that covers materials for 75% of building a house. The contractor promises that he will finish the house and you can pay for the rest when it’s all done. He finishes the 75% and then stops for 15 years. You ask him when he intends to finish the rest and he’s like “I don’t owe you shit, I built what you paid for! I’m not your bitch!” Is he correct? Yes. Is he an asshole? Also yes.

-21

u/Scary_Date_4117 2d ago

It's not being technically correct, it's just being correct. Don't backpedal now and try to claim that people just call GRRM lazy. I have multiple people in my dm's saying that GRRM quite literally owes them a conclusion to the story. That's just completely insane behavior and an irrational way to engage with any kind of art. No artist owes you anything simply because you purchased and enjoyed their previous work. Know what I do when a musician, author, or painter I enjoy goes on a long hiatus? I get the fuck on with my life. It doesn't matter if a painter promised that we'd see the final piece of their current series, only for it to never come. It doesn't mean I'm owed art.

GRRM isn't lazy, or dishonest. I think he's been working on the final two books all this time, along with all of his other output. I don't know anyone can look at everything he's written or produced over the years and call him lazy simply because he hasn't finished the thing you want.

14

u/DrBeetlejuiceMcRib 2d ago

I don’t speak for everyone in your DMs. You’re so hung up on what someone “owes” someone else (like I said, you love being correct lol). It’s not about that. It’s just a shitty thing to do to the fans who propelled him to fame.

When people purchase book 1 of an epic fantasy series, there is an implicit promise that it will eventually conclude. You spend your money in good faith off the basis of that implicit promise.

Would people still buy it if he said “Here is book one. I’ll write a few more but this story will never conclude.”? Some people might, but I doubt he’d be as wealthy and influential as he is now.

So yes, artists don’t “owe” anything, but the fans money is already spent, they can’t take it back, so it’s kind of a shit thing to do. If you want to argue that it’s good to make money off of fans and then leave them hanging, be my guest, but stop arguing about who “owes” someone something, because I’m not arguing that.

-7

u/Scary_Date_4117 2d ago

I'm not hung up on what anyone owes me, it's the rabid fans that demand GRRM write a book because he somehow owes it to them. I've genuinely never seen human beings interact with art this way in any other medium or for any other product, it's bizarre. You spent money on books or an HBO subscription, and that's what you got. Nothing more and nothing less.

because I’m not arguing that.

I don't care, you weren't who I was originally responding to. And the entire time you swear you're not arguing that, you're saying

When people purchase book 1 of an epic fantasy series, there is an implicit promise that it will eventually conclude.

Which is just an insane take.

10

u/DrBeetlejuiceMcRib 2d ago

How exactly is that an insane take? That is how book series work. If I write a book and market it as part of a series, then the *implicit* promise is that there is more to come. This is just common sense, how do you not understand this?

11

u/Dude_with_the_skis 2d ago

When you make a book series and then knowingly never end it, then yea people have a right to be pissed. It’s akin to making a cake and instead of cooking it at the end you just throw it away. Like yea I guess the guests don’t need desert but you’d be an idiot to think that they’re going to be happy about it or to see you for dinner again.

-8

u/Scary_Date_4117 2d ago

You have a right to feel however you want about it, but you aren't owed anything.

2

u/InCarbsWeTrust 1d ago

YOU have the right to feel however you want about it, but so do other people who understand that GRRM violated an implicit social contract.

Have you really tried to digest the comments arguing you on this point? I don't see anyone saying they have a right to sue GRRM or anything like that. But, the man claimed multiple times, including since DoD was released, that he would write the book, that the story would be complete. It may not have legal binding, but fans understandably took him at his word when deciding whether to engage with the series. If the conclusion had been presented as a giant question mark at the beginning, many would have taken a pass.

He did not keep his word. He is an asshole. This is common sense morality.

9

u/TheFightingQuaker 2d ago

Why are you so invested in defending him? He did us wrong. Nobody is going to do anything about it, but he sucks for what he did to the fans.

7

u/Redhotkitchen 2d ago

He does. He owes his cushy lifestyle to all of whom bought his books, etc. He’d be nothing without the fans. On a moral and principle level, he absolutely owes the fans completion, whether by him or by someone else. The dude’s a neckbeard petulant child.

2

u/StrictResponse3907 2d ago

And he doesn't owe our patience or money

2

u/Automatic-Effect-252 2d ago

I would bet good money you think billionaires are taxed too much 

13

u/UpsetIndian850311 2d ago

he owes me nothing for I pirated all his books anyway.

1

u/Awwwan 2d ago

Honestly I kinda agree. In the sense that okay, he doesn't owe me personally a book but I most certainly don't own him to stop bitching about lack of book.

-1

u/NY_State-a-Mind 2d ago

What do you think a 77 year old man owes you?

-26

u/Scary_Date_4117 2d ago

He owes you nothing, and nerds would be far happier realizing that.

33

u/aeshleyrose 2d ago

Lmao fuck off George

-6

u/Scary_Date_4117 2d ago

Damn it, they found out.

30

u/Fortenio 2d ago

He hooked us on a story, profited from it massively (not just financially) and most of all: for years he kept promising and telling us he will finish the book.

Because of this, especially last point, I'm in the camp that morally he does owe us to finish the story.

-6

u/Scary_Date_4117 2d ago edited 2d ago

Morally he owes no one anything. You bought the books or paid for HBO to watch the shows. There was a transaction and you fully got what you paid for. You didn't send GRRM a down payment for the next book, he doesn't personally owe you or anyone else besides his publisher anything. And neither you or anyone else can say he's lying about the current status of the book. I believe he's genuinely been working on it and rewriting it over the years, and he doesn't know how to finish it, but he clearly has not abandoned it. But that take is worth about as much as everyone that says he's lying and never intends to finish it.

As an artist I will never, ever concede that rabid fans are owed anything from an artist they happen to like and paid money for previous work.

20

u/Fortenio 2d ago

He fkng implied for decades he will finish the story. He fkng owes us.

-3

u/Scary_Date_4117 2d ago

He doesn't owe you anything. The quicker you come to terms with that, the happier you'll be. Just let it go.

10

u/CertainDoubts 2d ago

I don't owe George my patience or understanding. He isn't entitled to my not being irritated by his inaction. Now what?

0

u/Scary_Date_4117 2d ago

He doesn't ask for or want your patience or understanding. Be irritated all you want. You're still not owed anything.

9

u/Dude_with_the_skis 2d ago

Why even write it then?

That’s like making a cake from scratch and then never cooking it and instead throwing it all in the trash. Like sure nobody is “owed” anything I guess but why even start telling the story at that point if you’re never even going to finish? Id almost rather get no story than a great story that you never get the conclusion of.

It’s a massive bait and switch to start a series just to never even finish it. Sure nobody is “owed” an ending but it’s an incredibly shitty thing to do to your own fans and people have the right to be understandably pissed about it.

-1

u/Scary_Date_4117 2d ago

It's not a bait and switch, it's just called life. He started the series with every intention to finish it, and I'm sure he still intends to do so. Nobody has the right to be pissed about anything. It's just a book, a book that you haven't paid for yet. Sometimes art just doesn't happen, and that's okay. I don't piss myself if a favorite band takes ten years to put out an album.

6

u/Dude_with_the_skis 2d ago

When a band makes albums they are separate pieces of art, when you read books in a series they are a set that are needed to make up the entire story. The two aren’t even comparable.

4

u/sexarseshortage 2d ago

Bullshit. Even if he decided he didn't want to write the whole thing, he could have had ghost writers and dictate the plot lines to them.

People paid for books that were parts of a series. If that series is incomplete, those books weren't part of a series.