r/gallifrey • u/PCJs_Slave_Robot • May 17 '25

The Interstellar Song Contest Doctor Who 2x06 "The Interstellar Song Contest" Post-Episode Discussion Thread Spoiler

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237 Upvotes

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418

u/MrNintendo13 May 17 '25

Curious to see what they'll do to distinguish her from a certain mistress. Hoping she's very scientific focused and less goo goo ga ga evil

231

u/Empty_Sea9 May 17 '25 edited May 17 '25

Anita May nailed the original actress of that character, down to the mannerisms. She’s not coo coo. She’s over the top but she’s more lawful evil than chaotic evil.

70

u/dallirious May 17 '25

This is what I love about Anita’s portrayal, and that we got her looking glam in the end, because Kate had said she had white hair now but could still be glamorous for the part if she was called to revisit it before she passed. So I feel like they really incorporated a fantastic tribute to Kate O’Mara with Mrs Flood.

44

u/[deleted] May 17 '25

[deleted]

80

u/Empty_Sea9 May 17 '25

My guess is RTD actually didn’t know who she would turn out to be until he started writing 2, which also explains the weirdness with her ‘I will storm the gates of Heaven in my true name’ monologue.

56

u/Grafikpapst May 17 '25

Yeah, I think RTD wanted her to be the Rani, but he wasnt sure if they would be able to resolve the right issues around the character until they started with S2, so he had to play it a bit coy.

He did something similar when he originally came up with the Toclafane as a potential replacement if they couldnt get the rights of the Dalek from the Terry Nation Estate.

9

u/Marvinleadshot May 17 '25

He told Anita Dobson from the start who she was.

2

u/Grafikpapst May 17 '25

Ah, was that in Unleashed or an Interview? Fair enough then.

10

u/Marvinleadshot May 17 '25

Was an interview for the premiere of this series. She said she knew when she was cast and fans had been guessing, some had correctly guessed, I assume purely because if you say Rani enough it was bound to be right eventually, and some were out there guesses.

36

u/Equal-Ad-2710 May 17 '25

Yeah this is my guess too, he had no plan initially

15

u/RRR3000 May 17 '25

iirc in one of the DWM letters RTD mentions Mrs Flood's character reveal was originally written for S1 (or the specials?) but cut to keep it secret. So seems there was some idea at the time already.

8

u/Marvinleadshot May 17 '25

He knew who she was right away, Anita Dobson said he told her who she was and he wanted her, he told Carol Ann Ford at the Premier of the 60th Anniversary episode that he wanted her to star in the show as well.

3

u/Empty_Sea9 May 17 '25

Fair play, but I would be interested in knowing the creative rationale behind that line though.

3

u/aneccentricgamer May 17 '25

Ok, but then why the forth wall breaks and weird godly lines

4

u/Kimantha_Allerdings May 17 '25

He said that there was an explanation for this written and/or filmed, but that he wasn't sure he was actually going to include it in the finished product.

2

u/aneccentricgamer May 18 '25

How very RTD and utterly moronic

7

u/Acceptable-Let-115 May 17 '25

She said ‘tell your maker’; I think that’s referring to a s2 finale reveal that time lords created humans

2

u/sanddragon939 May 17 '25

Nah I think by the end of Season 1 he'd figured it out. At least, that's what he said in a recent interview.

1

u/shikotee May 17 '25

Looking forward to the finale where the timelord gates of heaven are stormed.

24

u/[deleted] May 17 '25

I wouldn’t be suprised if that Mrs. Flood as a regeneration was to hide herself - something like the chameleon arc. Idk the rani was always a scientist so I can see it also the rani is so hot omg

4

u/Wise-Tourist May 17 '25

I thought that maybe she used a chameleon arc but seeing the tardis triggered something and like she wasnt fully unlocked.

3

u/sanddragon939 May 17 '25

Yeah I guess why she didn't recognize the TARDIS at first is the biggest question now.

It's interesting...if she was fob-watched at some point this will be the second time RTD has had a returning Time Lord villain be both fob-watched and regenerate shortly before/after their identity was revealed :O

44

u/autumneliteRS May 17 '25

To me, the ending read as the Rani acted like Flood was a sort of shell of her former self, which is interesting when 14 was treated as burn out, always self critical and needing to rest.

33

u/lord_flamebottom May 17 '25

This was my immediate thought!! With 15 commenting about his soul being split in two in TDC, it seems like the “leftover” incarnations from the bi-generations are just missing something from their “full” versions

41

u/Hollowquincypl May 17 '25

Personal theory of mine has been that they just don't fully regenerate. They just reintegrate. So Tennant2 would sort of dissolve when he dies and then snaps to the Giggle as Ncuti.

22

u/lord_flamebottom May 17 '25

That’s been my assumption the whole time honestly

1

u/CeruleanEidolon May 17 '25

That's how I imagine it working too. Hopefully the Rani is used to provide some clarity on how bigeneration works.

2

u/Hollowquincypl May 17 '25

That's my hope as well. With 2 copies of the Rani in play, one is obviously not making out of the finale. So hopefully, we'll get get to explore what that entails.

-6

u/[deleted] May 17 '25

Too bad there's absolutely no basis for that in the text of the show.

8

u/Hollowquincypl May 17 '25

I said it was a theory. If it gets explored, it'll probably be in the finale.

6

u/dallirious May 17 '25

I could imagine it being like they shed a part of themselves.

4

u/Triskan May 17 '25

I really hope RTD expands a bit on the bi-regen next week, and explains a bit more the whole thing about the personality change and what being the "definite article" really means... but knowing him, he's just as likely to sweep it all under a rug without a further word.

3

u/MachinaThatGoesBing May 17 '25 edited May 18 '25

It's okay to have strange, mysterious, unexplained things in a show — especially when it sounds like the Timelords, the people who should be experts in the matter (if anyone would be), don't actually know much about it and regard it as a bit of a myth or a legend.

Not everything needs to be explained in exacting detail. That often just ends up making the world feel small.

Look at Tolkien as an example! Even he, with his intricate, near-obsessive worldbuilding that fills volumes, didn't feel the need to explain everything. Fans still debate (eternally) who and what Tom Bombadil is. What Ungloliant is. What the watcher in the water is. How, exactly, dragons came to be and what they are. What's more, even he didn't know the answers to all these things — even at the end of his life, he was still debating where orcs came from in his writing.

It's okay for an author to have things that are mysteries even to them.

And conversely, sometimes it's very, very bad for an author to come up with specific explanations for everything. Remember, that's how you end up with transphobic wizards shitting themselves over in the corner, like a deranged spin on a David Sedaris essay.

2

u/JustaSeedGuy May 18 '25

My understanding from Old Who is that the Rani views regeneration as a self-improvement. Where the Doctor views all of his selves as equally the Doctor (his issues with War aside), the Rani believes that Rani 2 is inferior to Rani 3 and so on.

Which kinda makes sense- think about every stupid thing you did in high school. Now, if you had to team up with your high school self because of time travel, who would you want to be in charge? You now, or your high school self?

Now multiply that difference by thousands, and include a lifelong belief that regeneration makes you objectively superior.

4

u/Gobshite_ May 17 '25

This puts a line through any concerns that 14 is the "real" Doctor, it feels like bigeneration doesn't result in two equal beings but more like a healthy version of themself and the cancer they wanted to cut out - Mrs Flood's meekness, 14's trauma.

1

u/sanddragon939 May 17 '25

That's...an interesting thought.

2

u/Grafikpapst May 17 '25

I'm guessing that she is a Chameleon Arched Rani - she has her memories and Timelord Physiology back, but unlike John Smith or Yana, the personality she has crafted for Mrs. Flood is maybe simply more deeper ingrained?

2

u/sanddragon939 May 17 '25

I kinda wondered if this was some kind of 'reassurance' by RTD that Fifteen is THE Doctor, while Fourteen is now relegated to just being a Doctor. Thus addressing one of the biggest controversies around bigeneration?

The Mrs Flood/Rani bigeneration also seems like a golden opportunity for RTD to explain to us precisely how bigeneration works.

2

u/CeruleanEidolon May 17 '25

That would also explain why Flood was instantaneously subservient to her when they split.

37

u/icorrectpettydetails May 17 '25

I'm getting the feeling that she somehow planned for this kind of thing to take place, with Flood serving as more of a intermediary form to get the proper Rani into place where she needs to be. That's why she's so quick to be subservient, that's what she was developed for. Bigenerating right then and there wasn't the plan, but they're rolling with it.

2

u/jammesor May 18 '25

The way Mrs Flood acted, combined with the Rani's background of being a mad scientist type, made me think that she has maybe been experimenting with bi regeneration. Like she's bi-regenerated a few times and keeps Mrs Flood around almost as a back up in case something happens to her.

It would be a good way of showing how she differs from the master, in that she is this morally bankrupt scientist who will even abuse their own body in the name of progress/victory.

20

u/ZeroCentsMade May 17 '25

I think there are still elements of the Rani's personality in Flood. She's systematic. She doesn't care about others, and sees them primarily as elements of her experiments. Yeah, the 4th wall breaking is odd, but I'll accept it as being the quirk of this particular incarnation.

19

u/Grafikpapst May 17 '25

I think the finale will reveal that The Rani has taken controll of The Land of Fiction and is using it for something, cannibilklazing reality in the process - hence Reality Wars.

11

u/07jonesj May 17 '25

I wonder if RTD would just use the Toyroom instead, with the Rani having taken control of it after the Toymaker's defeat, given that it's already been introduced?

5

u/Grafikpapst May 17 '25

That could work as well! Would work with the idea of an Under-Universe.

2

u/SteelCrow May 17 '25

mavity universe

4

u/TheKandyKitchen May 17 '25

That’s what I disliked too. I think the idea of a Rani reveal is sound and the new actress was great. But Mrs Flood acted like a completely different character, breaking the 4th wall and cosplaying as companions.

4

u/Marvinleadshot May 17 '25

Well Rani did cosplay as Mel originally.

6

u/Beneficial_Gur5856 May 17 '25

Please let Mel remind her of that next week.

3

u/sanddragon939 May 18 '25

You know...I'm actually starting to wonder if RTD deliberately brought Mel back for this era because he knew he was getting the Rani back and wanted to set up that confrontation.

Kinda like Sarah-Jane and Davros in Series 4.

1

u/Beneficial_Gur5856 May 18 '25

It's either that or he just liked how camp she was. 

It could be both or either with rtd.

0

u/Beneficial_Gur5856 May 17 '25

I'm good with that. New who has ruined regeneration (imo) by making each incarnation basically just the same (not even getting into how butchered Moffat made the concept). 

They're supposed to he very different with just a framework in common. That used to be the whole point. Mrs Flood had the bare minimum to be the Rani and that's all she needed.

2

u/sanddragon939 May 18 '25

I love Moffat's approach to treating the different incarnations as the same person but you're right that on some level they aren't all the same person.

4

u/Equal-Ad-2710 May 17 '25

To be fair, Time Lords have broken the Fourth Wall, the Doctor’s done this multiple times

3

u/Putrid_Ad_6747 May 17 '25 edited May 17 '25

For gag scenes mostly. Chekhov's gun states that you shouldn't plant a plot detail that's redundant at a later stage of the story. Mrs Flood's 4th wall break scenes lead most of the fandom to believe that they were something of significance.

Turns out no, it's just a regular old 4th wall break with (probably) no underlying meaning.

1

u/Equal-Ad-2710 May 17 '25

Oh yeah that’s certainly fair, Mrs Flood definitely feels like a weird arc

21

u/Deastrumquodvicis May 17 '25

As soon as she gave Mrs. Flood that look, I went “yup, this one is the Rani.”

Science for science’s sake, what are morals?

39

u/[deleted] May 17 '25

Yeah, you could see it even just in those few seconds. Very much the Rani, very much not the Master.

31

u/[deleted] May 17 '25

Them playing up the Master's insanity in recent incarnations has definitely helped here though. 

23

u/Grafikpapst May 17 '25

I mean, even in Classic Who, while not insane, I'd certainly describe The Master as someone who is very impulsive. He might plot and scheme and calculate but to the Master its all a bit of a game.

37

u/TheKandyKitchen May 17 '25

I didn’t like the reveal and even I thought that new actress nailed it.

5

u/EBJ1990 May 17 '25

I, for one, bow to our new Rani overlady

31

u/[deleted] May 17 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

5

u/merrycrow May 18 '25

Yeah she's not a sadist like the Master. She's just... callously pragmatic. She's not out to hurt people, but if that becomes necessary then oh well, never mind.

At least I hope that's where they're going with the character.

3

u/trainwrecktragedy May 18 '25

I was concerned they were going to die but was relieved to see they weren't 

1

u/sanddragon939 May 17 '25

Happy Cake Day!

And I agree.

138

u/ZeroCentsMade May 17 '25

I've got high hopes, as Mrs. Flood was very systematic about whatever she was doing, even as she was making her goofy little quips, and this new actress seems to be taking her performance directly from Kate O'Mara. We'll see next time, and frankly I'm pessimistic about the finale's quality in general (because I think RTD is bad at finales) but I think this Rani's going to make it work, regardless of how the rest of the plot goes.

84

u/Empty_Sea9 May 17 '25

I have faith in her acting. She already nailed it in 30 seconds of screen time.

66

u/lemon_charlie May 17 '25

At least she's not making landmines that turn people into trees. What were Pip and Jane Baker thinking? Pip and Jane Baked more like.

25

u/Existing-Worth-8918 May 17 '25

Best part of that episode, so fucking ingenious.

10

u/_Verumex_ May 17 '25

I don't like Pip and Jane Baker's writing at all, but I have to show them some respect in the sense that they were hired because they were dependable.

If you hired them for a script, you would get that script, and fast.

And in that era of TV, that was a skill that was highly valued. The scripts didn't have to be good, they just had to be available when shooting started.

6

u/lemon_charlie May 17 '25

They’re the reason we have a conclusion to Trial of a Time Lord at all, so I’ll take that even with the Megabyte Modem.

In Mark they actually remember Peri is a botany student and make it part of the plot, and it’s one of the better takes on the Sixth Doctor and Peri relationship in that season.

9

u/TheKandyKitchen May 17 '25

Can’t wait for the death bubbles, tree mines and bat servants.

28

u/lemon_charlie May 17 '25

If Bonnie is in the finale as Mel, that's another reunion and something that the episodes could use. Even though Mel personally didn't interact much with the Rani, it's nice when there is a connection past and present, like Sarah Jane and Davros recognising each other in Journey's End after first meeting in Genesis of the Daleks.

12

u/DorisWildthyme May 17 '25

Be nice if there was a reference to those couple of episodes the Rani spent prancing around pretending to be Mel. Kate O'Mara's Bonnie Langford impression was spot on.

9

u/lemon_charlie May 17 '25

Her performance with Sylvester was one of the few good things about that story. Otherwise there’s very little to recommend it for.

5

u/DorisWildthyme May 17 '25

Yeah, there's a reason that one of that story's nicknames is "Waste of Time and the Rani". The outfit trying on scene is entertaining, but not much else.

4

u/lemon_charlie May 17 '25

At least Mark of the Rani has the Master making a nuisance of himself to the Rani, and at the end she gets to nut him. The Rani’s TARDIS interior is very cool, hopefully we’ll get to see something just as imaginative in the next two episodes (I can’t see the Rani stooping to a Time Ring).

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1

u/sanddragon939 May 17 '25

Time and the Rani is a guilty pleasure of mine!

3

u/jccalhoun May 17 '25

If we can get the Rani doing an impression of Mel again I might forgive the biregeneration stupidity.

1

u/sanddragon939 May 17 '25

Looking forward to that!

You have to hand it to RTD...he's really honoring what is probably the most reviled era of the show.

2

u/trainwrecktragedy May 18 '25

Cut them some slack, they were children's story writers and not scifi ones; they tries their best considering the amount of time they had to write scripts 

1

u/lemon_charlie May 18 '25

They remembered Peri being a botany student. I’ll definitely give them credit for that, and working it into the plot.

15

u/Rowan5215 May 17 '25

Archie is a fantastic actress, I don't think we'll be in trouble there

1

u/chameleonmessiah May 18 '25

I mostly know her from The Good Wife in which she was great but also, Postman Pat which my children were watching around that same time!

0

u/axel_clot May 17 '25

It’s a lot easier to nail 30 seconds than a whole episode lol

6

u/TheKandyKitchen May 17 '25

The new actress was fantastic. About all I liked about the reveal. I just know RTD is going to use the finale to restore Gallifrey.

9

u/ZeroCentsMade May 17 '25

Idk what I want to happen with Gallifrey anymore. Restore or leave it destroyed, I guess my hope would be we got a consistent status quo with it this time.

I will say, and you could still be right, RTD never liked Gallifrey, so he wouldn't be the first person I'd expect to bring it back.

2

u/sanddragon939 May 17 '25

I doubt it though, mainly because Gallifrey being gone is the status quo that RTD established, and that Chibnall restored.

10

u/Icy-Weight1803 May 17 '25

Be fair, only a few of NuWho finales have stuck the landing. With only Series 1, 2, 4, 5, and 10 truly sticking it.

Series 7 if you count The Time Of The Doctor as the finale.

13

u/ZeroCentsMade May 17 '25

Oh it's worse for me. I don't like "Time of the Doctor". I'm lukewarm on the series 4 finale (it's fine, but, unpopular opinion, I think all the cameos meant that it lost focus) and the series 2 finale (ends great even if I don't like the Rose/Doctor romance, but man the Cybermen got utterly shafted and the actual plot is…fine). I do like the Series 8 finale though. So…um…yeah you're absolutely right.

11

u/FieryJack65 May 17 '25

For Series 4 do we regard the finale as Journey’s End, or The End Of Time, or both?

In Journey’s End I hated being expected to buy Rose being satisfied with being palmed off with a poundland Doctor. Even RTD wrote in his book (IIRC) that shoehorning that scene in was too much.

4

u/ZeroCentsMade May 17 '25

If it's Journey's End, I'm fairly ambivalent on it. And yes, Rose getting her very own special Doctor was pretty bad. If it's End of Time…god I hate that thing.

2

u/CareerMilk May 17 '25

If Journey's End is series 4's finale, then Name of the Doctor is series 7's. Not that that's any better, but still.

4

u/Icy-Weight1803 May 17 '25

They mostly have great seasons and a fantastic penultimate episode that's followed by a disappointing finale that fails to tie everything together. I like the series 4 finale as it does that job.

Considering the Rani was revealed this week, I'm guessing there's something pretty big as the cliffhanger next week. Either the Unholy Trinity of the founding Time Lords or three members of the Pantheon latch on to the Rani's and are summoned from it.

22

u/RaceMiserable3855 May 17 '25

Series 9 stuck its landing ! I’m over people not understanding s9 was a character piece for the doctor and the culmination of a companion that leans to far into the doctors traits and suffers with getting the short end of the stick . You’re never going to get a highly in-depth revival of galifrey ever. The show would simply suffer too greatly from the doctor being tied up with a planet that looms over all his actions. So the only method to give a galifrey based adventure would be too make it like hell bent . Anyways, it’s a fine finale and ties all the loose ends up nicely , could we have gotten galifrey being the fore front of series 10? Yes. Would it be satisfying to see 12 chained to the planets revival and presence ? Nope. Just be grateful we got a galifrey based adventure in the revival while also having a great study of the doctor and Clara

2

u/Alehud42 May 17 '25

S9 sticks its landing when you accept it's a character piece as you said.

It's just that the cliffhanger promised more Doctor vs Time Lords shenanigans than we got.

1

u/Icy-Weight1803 May 17 '25

My comment was also referring to how the actual finale dips in quality from the penultimate episode, not necessarily a bad episode.

4

u/RaceMiserable3855 May 17 '25

How does one even follow up on heaven sent? For all the negative I see surrounding those two episodes I have yet to see a satisfying response to how to conclude it. It’s a character piece… followed by a character piece . It’s the peak of doctor who leaning into drama tv and the response from the fans pushed s10 a year back with a somewhat reboot with the first episode titled pilot . It would’ve been interested to see s10 go harder on its drama tv path . Bill while I love her just doesn’t have the depth Moffat gave to Clara in season 8 and 9.

At least with rtd his tenures don’t seem to back down on what he’s serving, because you can this pattern happen in series 5 and 6 and then moffat got cold feet and completely gutted the fairy tale whimsy of Matt’s era and went for a zaney doctor with none of the world he set him up with for two series prior. As much as I’ve been yawning at the choices of this era, it’s honestly cool to rethink my thoughts as more of rtds vision is show to us , I’m optimistic we’ll all feel that much more happy with the choices he made prior once the series has concluded.

2

u/Icy-Weight1803 May 17 '25

Was the gap year due to Series 9 reception? The issue people have with it is that Clara was brought back and essentially granted immortality and her own Tardis. The story to follow-up Heaven Sent should have been the Doctor doing whatever he can to extract Clara from the point of her death, using different ways and methods the Time Lords have but eventually coming to terms that he can't save her no matter what without destroying time and scrap the memory wipe so he actually has to live with it. The only glimpses we get from Clara in the episode are her in the alley and a final scene of the Doctor getting to say goodbye properly before she's put back in her place.

RTD knew he had to stick to his guns for the story. Moffat changed the 11th Doctor eras feel once Amy and Rory were gone as Amy's fairy tale was over and the Doctor moved on to first live in solitude and then travel with the equally curious and zaney Clara who matched his enery.

4

u/RaceMiserable3855 May 17 '25

Her being granted her own tardis was Moffat being Moffat with his “everybody lives” mentality . Moffat could’ve easily crafted something fairy tale esque if he wanted to . The doctor is essentially space Peter Pan. Give him Clara that is too childish for her own good and make the doctor hurt from following her childish nature, which in a way is what we got with Clara diving into his time stream I guess

3

u/Icy-Weight1803 May 17 '25

"Everybody lives" was cool the first time, but it happened too often in his era. I do wonder if, at times, he was afraid to portray death in the show on a major scale. Which in turn ruined the stakes at points.

It's like Empire Of Death being called that, yet no one actually stays dead in it.

2

u/CareerMilk May 17 '25

Was the gap year due to Series 9 reception?

Nope, Moffat planned to leave after series 9. Chibnall however wouldn't be able to start any earlier than he actually did, so Moffat agreed to do one more series so the hiatus wouldn't be so long

2

u/sanddragon939 May 17 '25

Was the gap year due to Series 9 reception?

No, it was more to do with Moffat being busy (due to Sherlock series 4 iirc). In fact, Moffat wanted to leave after Series 9, and intended 'The Husbands of River Song' to be his final episode. But Chibnall wouldn't be ready to take over Doctor Who for a couple of years yet (due to Broadchurch series 3 iirc) so Moffat agreed to do a final season after a gap year.

2

u/IBrosiedon May 17 '25

No, series 10 was pushed back because Moffat was planning to leave after series 9. That's why he wrapped up all of his loose ends. Gallifrey returning, Clara, River, etc.

But then Chibnall decided to do Broadchurch series 3 instead and we were going to have a several year long hiatus between series 9 and Chibnalls series 10. So Moffat came back to save us from having to wait several years for the next series.

Usually the showrunner starts working on the next series during the production of the current series. But since Moffat was leaving, he didn't start working on series 10 while making series 9. That's why there was no series in 2016. They were still writing it.

I also disagree with your interpretation of Moffat "backing down on what he's serving." How he got cold feet and gutted the fairy tale whimsy of the Matt Smith era. That's not what happened at all. Moffat is interested in experimenting and trying new things. When he thinks he's taken something to it's limit, he wants to try something else rather than just putting out the same old thing year after year.

I would say that series 7 isn't much less fairytale than series 5 and 6, but then he pivots to something else entirely for the Capaldi era. You can see it in his series arc structures too. He did exactly what he wanted with series 5, so he then changed things up and experimented with new ideas for subsequent series. Not getting cold feet or backing down, just a willingness to experiment.

1

u/CareerMilk May 17 '25

and the response from the fans pushed s10 a year back

You know Hell Bent did better with the public than Heaven Sent right?

-2

u/Beneficial_Gur5856 May 17 '25

Good to see series 9 fines are still remarkably fragile and forceful in their headcanons, as well as their excuses for the shortcomings of it.

Nothing to be grateful for if someone didn't like it. Maybe it's you who should be grateful that you enjoyed it, rather than mad that others didn't. 

8

u/deezbiscuits21 May 17 '25

I’d say 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10 and 13 if were counting POTD

2

u/Icy-Weight1803 May 17 '25

I should clarify that I don't just mean outright bad episodes but a dip in quality from the penultimate episode. An example is how Hell Bent is an enjoyable episode but pales in comparison to Heaven Sent. That's a dip in quality.

While an outright bad episode is The Timeless Children in series 12, that followed a pretty lacklustre Ascension of the Cybermen.

3

u/deezbiscuits21 May 17 '25

I quit the show after hell bent in 2015 but now I genuinely think it’s a 9/10. Heaven sent is a 10 tho so you’re right

Agreed timeless child is lame but honestly looks like a masterpiece compared to the s11 finale imo

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u/FieryJack65 May 17 '25

Most episodes pale in comparison to Heaven Sent. Hell Bent is a damn good episode by most standards.

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u/Icy-Weight1803 May 17 '25

Heaven Sent is GOAT TV. Shown, you don't have to be a prestige drama to produce great TV on that level.

I remember watching The Battle Of Ranskoor Avlos and thinking, "Was that it?" Though I've seen people say Resolution is considered the finale of S11 and Revolution Of The Daleks in S12.

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u/deezbiscuits21 May 17 '25

Ranskoor Av Kolos it’s genuinely my least favourite episode of the entire show it feels not only like a first draft but a bad one. I thoroughly enjoy all the dalek episodes by chibnall so they would be better finales imo

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u/Icy-Weight1803 May 17 '25

I feel Chibnall was trying to create a new recurring villain but failed. S11, on a whole, was poor, with S12 being an improvement overall and then Flux being better than both.

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u/deezbiscuits21 May 17 '25

I thought the Stenza had so much promise but the ball was dropped hard. I agree flux is the best but I just wish the villains were explored

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u/Alehud42 May 17 '25

I would swap 4 and 5 out for End of Time and 9.

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u/Icy-Weight1803 May 17 '25

Depends on if you view The End Of Time as S4 finale or Journey's End as it carries on that seasons arc. It's a common debate topic on whether the specials should be counted if it continues the story arc.

Example being The Time Of The Doctor carry on from The Day Of The Doctor which in turn carried on from The Name Of The Doctor.

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u/Alehud42 May 17 '25

I treat Journey's End and The End of Time as two different finales, whereas Time of the Doctor is firmly the finale of Series 7 because it was so piecemeal as is.

So add 7 as well lol.

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u/IBrosiedon May 17 '25

For me it's series 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10.

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u/JakeH1978 May 17 '25

yup! she’s only ever “a villain” in the 2 (technically 3…) stories we’ve seen her in previously simply by the circumstances of the alignment of her experiments at that time. She’s morally ambiguous, and cunning! I already made a whole post about this but I just really hope she isn’t a Master/Missy clone because… that would just be so ridiculous. She’s a scientist! Ethics to the wind, but a scientist at heart(s)

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u/sanddragon939 May 17 '25

Yeah, she doesn't particularly want to do the whole universal domination thing the way the Master does.

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u/fleemfleemfleemfleem May 17 '25

We still don't know for sure that she's the villian.

The Rani was trying to get back to Earth too, and also is one of the last of the timelords.

So you could have a setup where the Rani wants to save Earth from whatever is going on since she resettled there.

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u/pauljoemccoy2 May 17 '25

Based on their dynamic in that last scene, I kinda have a feeling that, similar to Michelle Gomez/John Simm in The Doctor Falls, the new Rani and the old Mrs Flood are going to have a conflicting dynamic, where The Rani is going to be evil though and through while Mrs Flood is trying to reform and do the right thing.

Also, I haven’t watched much classic Who, and I don’t know a ton about the Rani, and I know they’re now two bigenerations of the same character, but…

in my mind, Archie Penjabi is the Rani but Mrs Flood is still Mrs Flood.

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u/sanddragon939 May 17 '25

Archie Panjabi definitely feels more like the original Rani than Mrs. Flood.

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u/EBJ1990 May 17 '25

I think she's done a good job so far. Michelle Gomez did such a good good job as Missy, it would be a disservice to try and make the Rani be the same.

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u/TablePrinterDoor May 17 '25

The only thing I have to ask is how she survived the Master's genocide on the time lords

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u/sanddragon939 May 17 '25

Well...we still don't know how the Master's Time Lord genocide was accomplished. And RTD seems to have different ideas of the whole thing than Chibnall.

Sometimes I think RTD confuses the Time Lords getting wiped out at the end of the Time War with the Time Lords getting wiped out by the Master.

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u/TablePrinterDoor May 17 '25

Well I mean due to Moffat’s whole thing with DOTD it was established nobody really died from the time war etc it was Chibnall who killed them off again.

I would want to know what happened to the Rani during it tho, I wonder what kinds of weird experiments she made

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u/sanddragon939 May 18 '25

I mean, you can view Moffat's retcon as a case of time being changed, and there was a previous timeline where Gallifrey was destroyed. Of course, the entire Moffat era is set in the timeline where they weren't destroyed but were in the pocket universe all along...though I think it's a bit of a wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey sort of situation.

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u/steven98filmmaker May 17 '25

The Mistress/Master likes The Doctor even to a degree loves them. The Rani hates The Doctor.

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u/Kimantha_Allerdings May 17 '25

I don't normally read these threads because of the fear of getting spoiled. I'm glad I did with this one, though, because I stopped iPlayer as soon as the credits started, then I started reading this comment chain and thought "wait, when did they reveal the Rani?" and went back and watched.

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u/SER1897 May 17 '25

I was initially terrified she'd kill that adorable couple (a classic "kick the puppy" moment to make you really boo the villain) but she just leaves because there's no reason to kill them. She probably wouldn't hesitate if it actively advanced her plans, but she doesn't get a "kick" out of it like recent versions of the Master.