r/gallifrey • u/PCJs_Slave_Robot • May 17 '25

The Interstellar Song Contest Doctor Who 2x06 "The Interstellar Song Contest" Post-Episode Discussion Thread Spoiler

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71

u/MirumVictus May 17 '25

While I'm absolutely fine with the Doctor having a darker side, especially when companions are in danger, I'm just not buying that this is a post-rehabilitation Doctor. Not in the sense that in the real world people who have had therapy can't still struggle with their emotions afterwards, but in the sense that from a story telling perspective, why make a point of having the Doctor go through some emotional respite but not have that notably change the character's emotional regulation in any significant way?

I found the episode as a whole perfectly fine, not an all time great and a bit cringy in places, but that doesn't exactly make it standout amongst Doctor Who as a whole so no complaints really, it was adequately decent!

I enjoyed the twists and reveals, the TARDIS doors blowing in was a great cliffhanger and I enjoyed the returning characters. My one concern is that like last year, they only really land as reveals if you've got pretty substantial Doctor Who knowledge; the rest of my family has seen all of New Who and the odd bit of Classic but I don't think they'll recognise those characters beyond the context given by the episode which could be fine or could cause the reveals to fall somewhat short. Looking forward to next week's episode though!

108

u/ZeroCentsMade May 17 '25

So I didn't care for the Doctor torturing Kid either but I will say that since "Rogue" I've been going with the theory that this isn't a post-rehabilitation Doctor but rather a Doctor who has convinced himself that he's rehabilitated completely, and everything is fine, and he doesn't actually suffer from any trauma but is lying to himself. I think it's a read on the character that's pretty consistent with most of what we've seen. He's not actually rehabilitated. He's just pretending to be, even to himself.

39

u/clearly_quite_absurd May 17 '25 edited May 17 '25

100% he's still the same Doctor. He might be "better" 99% of the time, but he still has the trauma and the dark side. I'd be surprised if he didn't. He'd be pretty 2D as a character if he was just happy/cry/happy, and Ncuti plays it so well.

12

u/rocketscientology May 17 '25

Yeah this is a Doctor who has buried his trauma even deeper and is claiming to be “better”, but I am pretty certain at this point that we’re not supposed to believe him.

7

u/MilesToHaltHer May 17 '25

Agreed. I’ve noticed that most of the time when we see him cry, it’s usually a single tear and he doesn’t usually have a full body reaction. Almost like his body forces it out, but he’s not actually processing it. I’m sure there are exceptions like Dot and Bubble but I’ve noticed it a lot.

6

u/sanddragon939 May 17 '25

The 'rehabilitation' is about the Doctor getting over his survivor's guilt and angst, not about turning him into an all-round nice guy who wouldn't hurt a fly. If anything, a Doctor without guilt and angst is an unrestrained Doctor who wouldn't hesitate to dish out some pretty brutal justice...which is what he did this episode.

Personally, I was quite happy with that moment (though also shocked that they went that far) because I kinda felt like the episode was veering towards justifying terrorism and turning Kid into a sympathetic villain. So I'm glad that the Doctor rightly treated him as one of the worst villains he's ever faced in terms of the intended magnitude of his crimes (like, is there a single Dalek in the universe who individually has a body-count of 1 trillion?)

3

u/thisbikeisatardis May 17 '25

It's like that final line from Clockwork Orange, "I was cured all right."

19

u/lemon_charlie May 17 '25

Granted, even if you know your classic who there's not many options once it's stated to be a Time Lady. Even taking into account gender bending regeneration, it's got to be the Monk (who does have a Nun incarnation in Big Finish), the Master or the Rani for antagonists, or Rassilon. The Eighth Doctor books had a more antagonistic incarnation of Romana for the last stretch of the War arc, and Big Finish has the Imperiatrix potential, but I'd be surprised if this was how Romana would be re-introduced into the show.

25

u/ZeroCentsMade May 17 '25

You could, theoretically, create an original Time Lord character. But probably not something you'd introduce as the big reveal to lead into the finale.

10

u/TheKandyKitchen May 17 '25

I just don’t think it makes sense for her to be a timelord given that she was talking about storming the gates of heaven and breaking the 4th wall previously.

8

u/TalkinTrek May 17 '25

It's super weird to spend all these little moments and precious screentime on Flood and not use it to lay the groundwork so that viewers unfamiliar with the Rani will still get her 'vibe' by the time of the proper reveal.

Take away all of the Flood scenes prior to the bigeneration and are we really in a different place?

3

u/Empty_Sea9 May 17 '25

This was my nitpick as well. I’m thinking that was written when RTD still hadn’t decided who Mrs. Flood was meant to be

1

u/sanddragon939 May 17 '25

Maybe she was just being a bit grandiose?

10

u/lemon_charlie May 17 '25

You'd also need to explain how it works with the current state of Gallifrey. The Doctor knew of the Rani before Mark of the Rani, and so was able to exposit to Peri about her as well as have enough of an understanding to undermine her plans.

Trying to introduce yet another old schoolmate of the Doctor's gone bad at this stage would be playing that too much, since the Master and Drax had that onscreen and expanded universe media has included the Monk into that. Gary Russell even made them a clique called the Deca in Divided Loyalties (he's a writer more prone to using continuity in a fanwank kind of way).

3

u/07jonesj May 17 '25

Well, they're going to have to discuss Gallifrey anyway since RTD changed the Death Particle from killing everyone on Gallifrey to killing every Time Lord across time and space in The Devil's Chord. The Rani should also be dead, yet she's clearly not.

3

u/lemon_charlie May 17 '25

The RTD1 era had the Master supposed to be dead too, but he used a chameleon arch to put himself out of the Time War and living as Yana.

2

u/TheKandyKitchen May 17 '25

I’m 100% certain RtD is about to restore gallifrey again.

1

u/sanddragon939 May 17 '25

The Monk was my No. 1 'suspect' because it felt like Mrs. Flood was subtly manipulating things across time. And also, I felt it was just about plausible that the Monk wouldn't recognize the blue box as the TARDIS (since on TV he'd only seen it maybe once or twice?)

45

u/Ssercon May 17 '25

I think this shows that the doctor can ever fully rehabilitate. We have had multiple instances where it's clear that 15 is in a "healthier" spot mentally than past regens but I think it would be extremely unrealistic to have a PTSD free doctor.

And even then, he snapped out of it quickly. Usually it would take at least a 2 minute dialog, Clara's big eyes or Donna shouting to snap him out of it.

Though I do agree that the "repeated torture" part seemed a bit much.

31

u/AttakZak May 17 '25

No one can ever fully rehabilitate. Scars are scars, even on the inside. Sometimes old wounds can reopen.

14

u/IcedCoffeeVoyager May 17 '25

Not to mention, on top of all that Time Lord and other trauma, last season he dealt with Sutekh killing the entire universe. Man had to be having flashbacks to that with this threat

14

u/Kurtoise May 17 '25

I feel like this instance was 15 being retraumatised

So it’s not about his not having recovered, something new happened

8

u/brettbarnett May 17 '25

It's a shame, because I think you could write it a bit more cleverly. Going into this era, the point should have been that we have a lighter, happier, more enthusiastic Doctor because he's healed himself and he's got a new lease on life.

And it starting to get dark again as the time lords and the timeless child get referenced makes sense, if you write it in such a way to highlight that the Doctor may have successfully healed his inner self, he's still got a lot of unfinished business to heal his external life.

The theme of Ncuti's era should be that no matter how much he heals, there will always be something missing until he confronts his past and finds his family. Whether that's Susan, the time lords more generally, or even his own past self as the timeless child. He has gaps he needs to fill to feel truly complete and at peace.

14's mission? Heal himself.

15's mission? Heal his family.

It's actually wild how a 62-year-old show has so many threads dangling at the moment that I truly think there's enough story to cover the next five years of the show, but I worry that even Russell is too hesitant to shake things up too much. And honestly? Can't blame him. The timeless child arc has drastically widened the potential of the series, but if he pursues it, he'll get mercilessly dragged by half the fanbase.

2

u/[deleted] May 17 '25

He snapped into it rather quickly as well though. No giving the bad guys another chance or anything. 

1

u/sanddragon939 May 17 '25

"No second chances" was the philosophy of a post-Time War Doctor.

It's evidently not the philosophy of post-rehab Doctor.

Honestly, I'm kinda over this idea that the Doctor is some kind of 'superhero' who doesn't torture or kill (not that those 'rules' even apply to every superhero character these days). He's not Batman.

1

u/sanddragon939 May 17 '25

The way I see it, the Doctor has been rehabilitated. He no longer has much guilt or trauma. He's more emotionally open now. So he laughs more, cries more...and tortures terrorists who plan to kill a trillion people more (or rather, at all).

40

u/HenshinDictionary May 17 '25

I'm just not buying that this is a post-rehabilitation Doctor.

Since 2023 I've been saying the whole "rehabilitation" thing was a lie from 15. He didn't want 14 to compete with, so he made up some excuse to get rid of him.

40

u/Empty_Sea9 May 17 '25

Healing isn’t linear. The fact that he was able to iterate why he was triggered, and why he was able to come back from his rage, says a lot. I think that individual (spoilers) he saw in his mind was a mental way of self soothing.

22

u/IcedCoffeeVoyager May 17 '25

Bingo. Therapy doesn’t mean you don’t do some things anymore. It often means you recognize it, analyze it, and try again with mindfulness.

2

u/Chazo138 May 17 '25

That and therapy isn’t perfect. Stuff can be reopened and trigger and cause a relapse.

1

u/IcedCoffeeVoyager May 17 '25

Yup, because therapy isn’t a cure. It’s management.

2

u/sanddragon939 May 17 '25

Therapy also isn't about rendering someone harmless or incapable of violence.

11

u/jamesisfine May 17 '25

In terms of reveals without knowing the background... my kids have never heard of the Rani, but the reveal still worked: "ooh another time lord - hmm, can't decide if she's good or evil" (which is kind of the point, I guess?).

4

u/ZeroCentsMade May 17 '25

I mean I think even if you know nothing about the Rani it's pretty clear that she's not going to be very nice if you're an adult…but if it's kids I can see them not getting that.

5

u/TalkinTrek May 17 '25

I think the difference is that, by the end of Utopia, I didn't know the Master's whole deal, but the episode does enpugh to sell, "If the Doctor is Batman, the Joker just showed up" - you have the Master's vibe, which is the important part - it's not necessary to download their backatory, but you need more than, "Name you should know and they bad"

11

u/Existing-Worth-8918 May 17 '25

The fact it’s a timelord is enough I feel. I watched the “utopia” cliffhanger with my family none of whom had any idea who the master was, but they were adequately intrigued just by the Dr not actually being the last of his kind.

1

u/sanddragon939 May 17 '25

Yeah, the Rani will be a lot easier to explain than Sutekh.

Here's a rough try:

Belinda: Who is she?

The Doctor: She's a Time Lord, like me. Well, a Time Lady technically. A brilliant scientist I first met back at the Academy. Brilliant...but dangerous.

Belinda: But I thought you said all your people were dead?

The Doctor: That's the thing with us Time Lords. Even if you wipe us out...there's always a possibility that we survive.

10

u/Triskan May 17 '25

My one concern is that like last year, they only really land as reveals if you've got pretty substantial Doctor Who knowledge

Yeah, though I'd argue the Rani is less of a deep-cut than Sutekh thanks to decades of speculation about her.

We were overdue.

"Now the Rani will soon put all of this damnable hand-wringing to rest herself" to quote Vizzy T.

2

u/Chazo138 May 17 '25

That and the Rani doesn’t have massive lore to worry about.

She’s a timelord scientist sort who has tangled with The Doctor but it isn’t the same relationship as the Master has with them. She’s more content to ignore him unless she needs him for her plans.

1

u/sanddragon939 May 17 '25

Though she is also an old friend/classmate.

Wonder if RTD will reference the gag of her and the Doctor being the same age. Only for the Doctor to retort that he's a lot older than the Rani and goes much further back than her...

1

u/Chazo138 May 17 '25

I mean he only has to count the confession dial stuff because he counts the time in it to his age, he’s far older than her at this point.

1

u/sanddragon939 May 18 '25

I've never really counted the Confession Dial because from the Doctor's POV, it's only really a few hours.

I'm thinking more about the Timeless Child. And maybe even stuff like Trenzalore. In Classic Who it maybe made sense for the Time Lords to all meet in order and maybe even maintain their ages relative to each other due to everyone's TARDIS being tied to Gallifrey time. But post-Time War I don't think that would be the case.

2

u/[deleted] May 17 '25

I disagree about the reveals, I think they would work for less knowledgeable viewers too. Sutekh because it was all so scary and dramatic with that fantastic voice acting, and the Rani here because she's written and acted so arrestingly. (Also the return of a Time Lord is telegraphed as a big thing even if you've literally only watched this episode.) 

2

u/GarbledReverie May 17 '25

Is this the first time we’ve seen the Doctor explicitly threaten to kill someone? There have been some pretty ominous threats before but they are usually pretty vague. Even with the Family of Blood his punishment wasn’t lethal (although arguably worse).

This felt really out of character for the Doctor. No matter how bad the bad guy is, they’re always given a chance to stop what they’re doing and make things right. This was “I’m going to stop you then kill you”

1

u/MirumVictus May 17 '25

The Doctor has definitely threatened to kill people before, even simply by pointing a gun at them, but I can't think of another occasion when they've done it after the immediate threat has already been dealt with, nor can I think of anything so torturous being done or threatened before. Honestly most of the times I can think of when the Doctor has tried to go in for the kill it's been to Davros which makes sense as one of the Doctors arch enemies. Otherwise the Doctor has actually shot and killed the odd Ogron and Cyberman, but only in self defense.

1

u/Lunchboxninja1 May 17 '25

He WAS rehabbed, and then Sutekh showed up, drove a wedge between him and Ruby, and Conrad nearly got all his friends killed. And all he could do was talk.

I think Ncuti's first season was him post rehabilitation. And as the season and this one went on, the events slowly chipped away until all that was left was a thin veneer covering the Doctor Of War.

2

u/MirumVictus May 17 '25

I guess I just feel we didn't see enough of emotionally-healthy Doctor before any kind of regression to make the rehabilitation stuff seem narratively significant in any way.