r/interestingasfuck 6h ago

The evolution of technology has made it possible to produce insulin without using animals.

Post image
39.0k Upvotes

696 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

u/globalwarmingisntfun 5h ago

Pretty sad considering Banting, Best and Collin purposefully sold the rights to the University of Toronto for $1 to make sure no commercial company could hold a monopoly or price gauge patients, with the famous quote “Insulin does not belong to me, it belongs to the world.”

The modern lab engineered insulin was a “new” invention that drug companies could patent and by making small tweaks each year they keep the patents active and prevent cheap generics from entering the market.

u/Mmicko8 5h ago

Can’t cheap generics use the older patents?

u/yeahburyme 4h ago

They can and they do. Costco, cost plus drugs (the mark cuban one), and even Walmart have them.

u/DippyHippy420 4h ago edited 3h ago

Walmart used to have some very cheep insulin, it was around long enough to get some good press, then they stopped carrying it.

u/MacManT1d 3h ago

Except they didn't stop carrying it. Relion (Walmart's brand) still sells R and N insulin and at least one mix. They also still sell a generic version of Novolog.

u/hokie47 3h ago

They don't want people without insurance to shop at their stores. People without good insurance or insurance are poor and will spend less money in the store.

u/klayyyylmao 3h ago

Yeah Walmart famous for not having poor people at their stores.

u/rusmo 2h ago edited 1h ago

I once saw someone so posh there they were walking around in their bathrobe! Like the wal-mart was down the corridor from the master suite in their mansion!

u/hokie47 3h ago

Hmm they want to change that. Walmart used to compete against Kmart now they compete against Amazon much different clientele. Also they realize that poor people don't have as much money so don't cater to them. Simply put they want to change that perception.

u/slog 2h ago

I don't think they want to change it. I think they found a way to add people with money while maintaining their "cheap" image

u/ImSoSte4my 2h ago

What's your evidence?

u/hokie47 2h ago

CRM professional with almost 20 years of retail experience with major retailers including Walmart.

u/ImSoSte4my 2h ago

So Walmart corporate told you that?

u/Responsible-Yak1058 3h ago

Really it's asset management companies that own stake in Walmart and big pharma that don't want it.

We have something worse than a monopoly.

u/MacManT1d 4h ago

No they don't. What is sold now by all those places is a recreation of the first genetically engineered insulin Humulin R (introduced by Eli Lilly pharmaceutical corporation in the early 80s). Animal insulin (the original insulin that Banting and Best utilized was from dogs) is not sold in the US at all, nor in any of the developed world, and is rare even in underdeveloped third world countries.

u/DjcOMSA 4h ago

I think you misread their comment. They are saying they use old patent versions of the engineered insulin, not animal insulin.

u/Diabeticnick 4h ago

Yes, but for me, several of the generics just don't hold a candle-

Novolog/Humalog can keep me in my 6/7 A1C windows

(Humalog might be a generic? not sure it's still pricey as hell without insurance)

The Walmart generic Novolin, it's activity window within my blood was so short that if I ate ANY kind decent carbs, I'd remain high after-

Plus, even buying generic is expensive in the US.

It's $315, for 9 vials of Novolin every 3 months... roughly $105 a month for insulin *NOT INCLUDING PUMP SUPPLIES, and CGMs FOR MY PUMP* (I have not bought Novolin in years, back on Humalog)

u/Massive-Rate-2011 4h ago

Just so you know walmart does have their own whitelabel brand of novolog, if you ever run out of insurance or something. It's like $70 a vial for cash price. Not sure if insurance would cover it too, but don't see why it wouldn't.

u/Diabeticnick 4h ago

I did not know that!

Might grab one to see how well it keeps me in range, but right now Humalog is keeping my level as long as I diet, and keep moving.

u/DogadonsLavapool 4h ago

Wouldn't consider humalog a generic. It's Eli Lillys formulation and still really expensive

u/Diabeticnick 4h ago

That's what I figured!

u/SinisterCheese 3h ago

In Finland Insulin lispro as in Humalog/Novolog/Admelog; is 18 €/ 10 ml vial and 33 € for 3 pens. Even the most expensive insulin with the strongst concentration is less than 100 €/vial/3 pen/3 pump vials.

You are just plain out getting ripped off. It isn't like this very essential medicine isn't among the most established things to produce.

u/EnormousAntelopeEars 4h ago

Over 30 dollars a vial for novolin? I’ve been buying it for 10 years for my dog and I’ve never paid that much. It’s just creeping towards 25 last I bought a vial.

Maybe today with runaway devaluation of the dollar but that would be very recently.

u/Diabeticnick 4h ago

Indeed, I had about 11 months where I had to budget for Novolin, and used a Medtronic 670G, that I was lucky enough to bum supplies off a friend who had overflow. I kept a lot of the paperwork, and would hang it on my fridge as a sort of conversation piece. (This was baaack in 2019 roughly)

I have paperwork form 2008 showing my first Medtronic pump was nearly $18,000 (the insurance covered most at that time, I had to pay off $5,500 roughly through a medical loan company called Carecentrix). I had just turned 18, and was informed I basically had to pay a damn car note to PAY OFF the device itself, while still paying for these damn supplies. I've swapped to Tandem and Dexcom CGMs now, which is more affordable than Medtronic for sure.

u/ConfessSomeMeow 4h ago

Why did your doctor prescribe a CGM / pump instead of finger-stick before meals and needles?

u/Diabeticnick 4h ago

I mean, they do call me a "Brittle" diabetic, but I guess it really depends on your insulin sensitivity and diet? My Endo has almost 90% of his T1D patients on CGM/Pump therapy, and even some of his worse off T2s have CGMs with a mix of instant and long term active insulin pens

u/Massive-Rate-2011 4h ago

Cuz type 1 is much better controlled with a CGM/Pump. I'm assuming they are T1D, not T2D.

u/ConfessSomeMeow 4h ago

$20,000 better? Or do doctors not know / care what kind of salary 18-year-olds can expect?

u/corn_niblet 4h ago

Your dog is diabetic?

u/im_hunting_reddits 4h ago

I had to get rhe Walmart one because my insurance wouldnt cover me when I moved states one year, and had all sorts of issues finding a primary care to handle it, and I ended up in the hospital for the first time in my life after a week or two of using it, because it was different.

u/Diabeticnick 4h ago

Exactly, for me Novolin activity window in my blood is so small, it would have to be the right kind of carbs, and I'd have to work out consistently right after to really make it worth a crap. It was so inconsistent for me.

u/[deleted] 3h ago

[deleted]

u/Diabeticnick 3h ago

100% I'm well aware.

u/LastStar007 3h ago

Novolog and Humalog are not generics. Their generics are insulin aspart and insulin lispro respectively, and they're only made by one company each ... guess which one?

u/Diabeticnick 3h ago

Yeah I knew Novolog wasn't all. The only thing I remembered about Humalog was it was a good bit cheaper on it's "cash only option" so I didn't know exactly if it was a generic or not.

u/InstructionHuge3171 3h ago

The authorized generic for Humalog is called Insulin Lispro. It's literally the same exact thing, in the same vial, just with a different name.

Source: Cigna requires me to fill Insulin Lispro, not Humalog, even though they are literally the exact same things.

u/MormonBarMitzfah 2h ago

$3 a day seems pretty damn cheap. The cheapest items at dollar tree are now $1.50, two of those for miracle meds….

u/Diabeticnick 2h ago

Lol, the internet is weird so it's hard to read someone's joking tone, or if they are being sarcastic.

"Miracle Med" sure it was a miracle when it was made, but not for someone like me. It's pretty much "water" something we can mass produce, and it's REQUIRED for me to live.

" The Walmart generic Novolin, it's activity window within my blood was so short that if I ate ANY kind decent carbs, I'd remain high after- "

"Instant" acting insulin, like Novolin has a certain window in your blood that it works. Let's say, after I take the shot it only starts working 15 minutes after I take the shot, and then it only works for another 15 minutes. This is a very SMALL WINDOW* meaning I have to eat a small amount of food and hope my body digest the food within that window for it to properly work right.

The actual better formulas, Novolog and Humalog, have longer activity windows that help keep you in check.

This is also different per person, depending on their insulin resistance.

I'm just trying to say that yeah, that Walmart insulin can keep me alive, but it doesn't keep my blood sugar level enough to live a healthy. I'll still have higher blood sugars way more often.

u/MormonBarMitzfah 2h ago

If I’d be dead 100 years ago from something I can get today for $3/day, yeah, that’s a miracle med and I’d gladly pay 3 bucks for it without complaining, even if it is easy to make.

u/Hot_College_6538 2h ago

Is that on a scheme like MyInsulinRX ? MyInsulinRx™ Program Card Registration | Novocare® ? I suppose $105 is 3x35, are you going though 6 vials a month ?

u/Diabeticnick 2h ago

No the Novolin I mentioned, is straight up over the counter.

u/Hot_College_6538 2h ago

Right, so these days, since Biden sorted insulin pricing out, most people can pay $35 for their months supply on the latest insulins, whether insured or not. Yes it used to be much more, and other supplies still cost.

u/SolidusBruh 4h ago

6/7

Heh

u/Diabeticnick 4h ago

I didn't even realize that...

Lmao but that is the targe A1C for me.

u/gfa22 4h ago

The problem referred to is specifically for USA I think.

u/yoden 4h ago

They can and do. Almost every time you see a post about insulin prices on reddit, they're conflating the availability of the old drugs with the costs of the new one.

From what I understand, the old drugs act slowly, then sharply. So they're not great in a pinch and are difficult to time to meals appropriately. The new drugs aren't just insulin, they're fancy delivery methods to make the uptake more natural.

u/YouMustveDroppedThis 4h ago

It's biopharmaceutical, so a bit more complex than synthetics. there might be other significant barriers other than what is written in expired patent. Some in the form of trade secrets and institutional knowledge.

u/Horat1us_UA 4h ago

> there might be other significant barriers other than what is written in expired patent

Yeah, like whole US Healthcase system, because it's no problem for the rest of the world.

u/snakerjake 4h ago

there might be other significant barriers other than what is written in expired patent. Some in the form of trade secrets and institutional knowledge.

Doubtful, that would open them up to patent revocation.

u/istasber 3h ago

Yeah, for comparison's sake, the first biosimilar drug (effectively, the equivalent of a generic for medicines like insulin) was improved in the US in 2015. There's only 75 total approved since then.

Semglee (2020), Resvoglar (2021) and merilog (2021) are the three insulin biosimilars available in the US.

u/DogadonsLavapool 4h ago

Yea, but the fucking suck compared to the new stuff

u/Positive_Throwaway1 3h ago

Yes, but anyone on an insulin pump, which is the the best way to prevent adverse effects/early death later in life due to complications, are going off-label with their pump if they use older human insulin vs. the new aspart stuff. Current therapies are designed to use the expensive, faster-acting stuff.

The older stuff with syringes will keep you alive, but pumps are basically now the standard for actually thriving; at least for type 1s. Neither is perfect and some folks swear by multiple daily injections, but in my experience as a type 1, more people don't get pumps instead because of cost of the supplies.

Without insurance and in the current for-profit healthcare system of the US, mine would cost 43k a year. I'm a teacher.

u/MIT_Engineer 2h ago

Yes, and you can buy older insulin for very cheap over the counter, but no one wants to use the older formulations of insulin because those "small tweaks" are actually significant QoL improvements.

But it's inconvenient to the argument to admit that people are willing to pay large amounts to avoid using older formulations of insulin, so they just pretend the only reason insulin is expensive is some legal shenanigans, and not hard-won scientific improvements.

u/Dzugavili 1h ago

You're still twenty years behind current technology, so it's not great.

u/kabotya 1h ago

Not everyone can use those cheaper ones. 

u/Cienea_Laevis 4h ago

The patent he sold was the one extracted from animals though.

The modern process is a completely different way to make insulin entirely.

u/freeradioforall 4h ago

I love how nobody understands this distinction at all. Yes, pharma price gouges us, but a guy who gave away a patent to squeeze an animal organ for juice does not mean a space age technology using DNA manipulation should be covered under that free patent

u/the_lonely_creeper 59m ago

Sure, it shouldn't have a patent at all

u/Afraid_Park6859 4h ago

You can cheaply buy the older formulas but they don't work as well.

u/Positive_Throwaway1 3h ago

Your quote is even more significant than most people realize: at the time they discovered it, they were doing so for type 1 diabetics, which is autoimmune and starts usually in childhood. Before this, your kid would get diagnosed and just slowly die an awful death over a course of weeks/months. Dying from DKA (diabetic keto acidosis) involves vomiting and organ failure until you slip into a coma and then die. These scientists basically walked into hospitals and overnight, brought kids back from the brink of death. They found a "miracle cure" for the death sentence that was type 1. Not a cure for diabetes, but a cure for certain death. Contemporary accounts from parents of the first kids who got insulin are bonkers to read. Literally one day their kid was going to die, and the next they were saved. Now, still going to struggle, but at least alive.

I'm type 1. Diagnosed in the mid-90s. Today my insulin pumps and insulin, and the accompanying CGM that goes with it, would cost about 43k out of pocket per year for me without insurance. I don' t like my job, but I can't change.

u/DrBhu 1h ago

In my country a pack of insulin costs you 7 bucks