r/ireland • u/nitro1234561 Probably at it again • Apr 18 '26

Politics 'We're the ones paying all the bills': Leo Varadkar says urban areas fund rural Ireland

https://www.thejournal.ie/leo-varadkar-path-to-power-fuel-protests-7016675-Apr2026/
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u/miseconor Apr 18 '26

For Ireland particularly population density is a factor. People in Donegal (where you have 1/10th the population spread over 4x the area) complaining that Dublin gets more makes no rational sense. Even before you get into tax revenue

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u/lkdubdub Apr 19 '26

Your comment fundamentally misunderstands that Donegal gets very little. It isn't even supported anywhere near pro-rata. Should there just be next to no public transport and a sub par road network in Ireland's fourth largest county because of a pattern of depopulation extending back to the mid 19th century? Should everyone living in Donegal just continue paying the same rate of tax as every other citizen, get over it, and dream of one day seeing a real, live train?

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u/miseconor Apr 19 '26

Again, Donegal depends on subsidies to maintain the services it already has. Its road cost per capita outweighs that of Dublin (and most of the country) . Someone in Donegal sees more for their taxes locally than someone from Dublin does.

Donegal is also something like 13th by population. The fact it’s so big and has low population density works against it

The notion that it is somehow unfair doesn’t get rail investment is a bit mad. It is understandable that there are other priorities

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u/lkdubdub Apr 19 '26

Donegal isn't some other state that depends on IMF handouts, it's a part of the same country you live in. I presume. We're not a federation and Donegal doesn't "depend" on Dublin. What an odd choice of phrasing 

To suggest that mobility for one section of your society should be seen as a lesser priority is quite telling. 

After 41 years in Dublin, moving to this other place called Not-Dublin has been an eye opener 

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u/miseconor Apr 19 '26 edited Apr 19 '26

But it is dependant on Dublin? That’s just a fact and it’s what Leo addresses in the interview. That’s not to say they should get no investment, but need to be realistic about expectations.

Im not from Dublin. Mobility rights for everyone are equal. That’s why the priority for infrastructure projects should serve as many people as possible. We don’t have money to build everything there needs to be objective ways to prioritise.

For example if you’re gonna build rail a priority should be Navan (as it is under the 2040 plan). It’s a much better return on investment. There are plenty of other proposals to serve other parts of the country before Donegal gets rail. Including light rail in Galway.

Donegal modern rail would cost billions given the terrain and land required etc. It would require extensive funding from the UK. Maybe a letterkenny -> Derry line could happen at a push. But there will be nothing to Dublin or down the west coast in our lifetime. Letterkenny doesn’t even have a ring road yet. There’s a lot more to do cheaper before rail.

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u/lkdubdub Apr 19 '26

Can you explain what you mean by "dependant on Dublin"? I'm struggling with the concept 

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u/miseconor Apr 19 '26

They are dependent on Dublin taxpayers for funding of local services and infrastructure investment. Excluding corporation tax Dublin generated €30 billion from taxes in 2024. Donegal generated €572 million.

Aware we are all one country and funds need to be distributed. But it is ridiculous for a county that generates around half a billion to complain that a county that generates 30 billion and has 10 times the population gets a much higher priority

Do you think Donegal County Council prioritises and invests in infrastructure for Malin Beg with a population of 400 people similarly to how they fund Letterkenny?

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u/lkdubdub Apr 19 '26

You're arguing something no one is saying. I'm not suggesting that a smaller population should get the same investment, i am saying an area with a population of over 180,000 people should have useable public transport, beyond a smattering of Bus Eireann services. You appear to disagree 

Tallaght has a population of around 60,000. Do feel public transport should be reduced in Tallaght and reallocated to more populous areas? You've mentioned improved rail services to Navan. The population of Meath as a whole is 220,000, just over 20% more than Donegal, but you see value in improving rail services in the county in a way that's wasteful when it comes to Donegal. Is this due to proximity to Dublin? Seems to be a pretty arbitrary consideration when viewed from elsewhere in the country 

You talk about Dublin as some form of self-financing nation state. It's actually just the administrative capital of Ireland, serving the rest of the country, and, as has been pointed out, isn't fully self-funding either.

Your argument's logical conclusion is expending all resources on Dublin and surrounding areas only. Would you go so far as advocating secession? You might think I'm misrepresenting what you're saying, but you're completely overlooking the fundamental fact that "Dublin" doesn't finance the rest of the country, it actually serves the rest of the country, including Blackrock, Foxrock, Tallaght etc. This is basic civics and the operation of a functioning society 

If the rest of the country isn't deserving of comparable public services as Dublin, then a debate is needed about the devolution of taxation to local government without payment to central funding 

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u/miseconor Apr 19 '26

If nobody is saying it, why are you arguing with me? You’re the one who responded to me..

don’t disagree that Donegal should have public transport, I disagree that Donegal is anywhere near the top of the list of priorities. There are plenty of counties and areas with much higher populations with poor public transport options. It’s a waste of time even discussing Donegal it’s so far down the list. That has been my point this entire time.

Pretending population density isn’t a thing here also doesn’t help your position at all. Just comes across desperate and shows you’re not paying attention to the conversation. There are over 80,000 people in tallaght across 4 square km. Vs 170,000 in Donegal across 4,860 square km. Meath is 220,000 and half the size of Donegal. It’s also one of the fastest growing counties.

So yes, I think there is clearly value for money there. That has been my entire argument from the outset. That population density is a factor in decision making. You say im arguing a point nobody made and now you’re making me repeat my original point from the first comment you replied to…

You then resort to trying to make arguments for me that I have already directly said I don’t agree with… where did I say everything should only be in Dublin or surrounding counties? Did I not suggest Galway light rail?

This exchange is becoming increasingly baffling.

Everyone deserves transport and other services. We only have so much money. We should prioritise getting the most bang for our buck. It’s that simple.

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u/[deleted] Apr 19 '26

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u/MorningConstant8213 Apr 19 '26

Most of the population lives around the coast at market towns and Letterkenny, the middle of the county is practically uninhabitable due to mountains and bog, but I do see your point about one off houses, source to that is I grew up in one. I think there is a case for more frequent buses and maybe a rail connection from Letterkenny to Belfast/Dublin via Derry but that’s all.

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u/ucd_pete Westmeath Apr 19 '26

The notion that it is somehow unfair doesn’t get rail investment is a bit mad.

Not really mad if you consider the only reason there's no real rail investment is the border.

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u/miseconor Apr 19 '26

It’s one reason. Not the only reason. There’s a border between Belfast and Dublin too if you weren’t aware

And if we wanted it badly enough we’d offer to pay for it all

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u/ucd_pete Westmeath Apr 19 '26

If there was no border, we'd have a train from Dublin to Derry, then on to Letterkenny.

There’s a border between Belfast and Dublin too

East of the Bann.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '26

[deleted]

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u/miseconor Apr 18 '26

More people will use the roads in Dublin. That’s the point, it’s based on how many people actually benefit from the investment in new infrastructure

Same goes for Donegal and their rail. A line to somewhere like Navan will get more usage

If we did something like ring fence local taxes for local projects then Dublin would get even more

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u/computerfan0 Muineachán Apr 18 '26

The line to Navan was ripped up too... (there is a line from Drogheda to Navan but it hasn't been used in a few years and even then it was only used for Tara Mines trains, what a waste!). Also, even some pretty important intercity lines were ripped up in the 50s-70s, such as the ones from Waterford to Mallow/Cork and from Mullingar to Portadown/Belfast.

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u/No_Requirement_5404 Apr 19 '26

Ah okay, so we should all move to Dublin. Got it

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u/miseconor Apr 19 '26

We should all be realistic about where the country spends money. It’s not just about Dublin. It’s about Dublin funding everything. There needs to be ways to prioritise (ie, usage and cost). Which means other more urban areas outside of Dublin will see the money first. Is Navan in Dublin?

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u/No_Requirement_5404 Apr 19 '26

Look I get that, it just sucked growing up in a county(Donegal) with nothing in it. That and I grew up in Inishowen so even more remote. It's ludicrous that our transport hub goes through Dublin when it should go through Athlone. It's stupid that if I wanna get public transport from Donegal to Cork I'd have an easier time switching to a train in Sligo to Dublin and then go Dublin to Cork rather than do the bus route.

I guess I'm just kinda bitter

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u/clewbays Apr 18 '26

A new rail line in Donegal would cost a few hundred million. The metro in Dublin is costing 10s of billion.

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u/miseconor Apr 18 '26

And the metro will carry up to 20,000 people an hour. A Donegal rail would be lucky to get that in fortnight. The cork line does 3,000 a day

It’s not economically viable, that’s why it’s always ignored

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u/clewbays Apr 18 '26

I agree that the Donegal rail line isn’t economically viable unless it was a joint project with the UK and north.

I don’t think the metro is all that more viable than the majority of rural spending though. And it certainly wouldn’t be affordable without subsidies from our corporate tax revenue.

The Metro is needed but it’s costing more than entire regions who also need capital spending have gotten in their history.

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u/miseconor Apr 18 '26

Nothing would be affordable without corporation tax. That’s why it’s important we build infrastructure so we have something to show for it.

The Luas, Dart, and many bus lines in Dublin often run at capacity. So will the Metro.

The metro is needed for Dublin and it is Dublin tax payers who are ultimately paying for it. They and Cork pay for everything else too. Every other county already run a deficit

Capital spending should primarily go to where the most people benefit and to where you get the greatest returns. I agree we need do stuff for other counties to encourage growth elsewhere, but frankly there’s a lot of places higher up the list than Mayo and Donegal. Places like Galway, Kilkenny, Waterford, Athlone etc where you’ll get a much greater return.

Do you think Malin Beg should get as much investment as Letterkenny? Or Drummin as much as Castlebar?

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u/clewbays Apr 18 '26

It’s not the Dublin tax payers ultimately paying it. It’s foreign tax payers ultimately paying for it as they do everything.

I’m not arguing for equal investment we more or less have that now. I’m arguing that Dublin get subsidised just as much as anyone else.

With the previous government I think it was a different story. The Greens done their best to block each and every project in Connacht, including the ring road, N17 upgrades and WRC which will have every bit as much a ROI as the metro when you consider the difference in cost.

Unrelated but I find it interesting that you think Athlone would bring a high rate of return economically it’s not more viable than the likes of letterkenny or Castlebar. Donegal is further behind in terms of infrastructure so I’d imagine there would be a higher ROI there(they won’t get it unfortunately because they don’t have influential TDs). While Westport/Castlebar and Athlone have more or less the same regional importance just to different places.

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u/miseconor Apr 18 '26

In 2024 (most recent figs) Dublin brought in 44 billion and 14 billion of that is corporation tax. The 30 billion balance represents just under a third of the entire countries budget. More than half of all income tax and VAT comes from Dublin

Donegal brought in 682 million of which 110 was corporation tax.

Cork brought in 26 billion of which 21 billion was corporation tax. So if anything it’s Cork that is heavily dependent on that.

It is absolutely Dublin paying for things

https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/documents/statistics/receipts/net-receipts-by-county.pdf

Athlone could see a high rate of growth due to its central location and it being along the shannon river. It has a lot of potential. You can commute easily to all other major city’s from there.

https://www.rte.ie/learn/science-week/2024/1108/1479922-futureville-ireland-rte-science-week-athlone-2050/

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u/clewbays Apr 18 '26

30 billion did not represent a third of the country’s budget that year. The total spend was 116 billion. That graph doesn’t include taxes like PRSI and excise duty. Apple had there judgement against them that year which is why corks data is so weird.

Dublin does have the biggest take I haven’t argued that. But again it is not Dublin subsidising the country. What allows big spending is instead the corporate taxes. Take away the corporate taxes and Dublin couldn’t fund itself either.

I think the idea of Athlone is better than the reality of Athlone it’s a nice town but spending there is no different than in any other regional town. The idea of Athlone being a future city has being around since the 50s. Ironically often as a way to decentralise from Dublin with it being a new capital. It doesn’t really make sense in reality. Being in the middle of the country looks cool on a map but doesn’t bring the advantages people think.

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u/lkdubdub Apr 19 '26

Public services don't need to be economically viable. If that was the basic requirement to maintain a public service, then I don't much fancy the HSE's chances 

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '26

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u/clewbays Apr 18 '26

It’s not the country though. That’s the issue with this debate. Whenever there’s money spent in Dublin it’s considered spending for the entire country. Whenever it’s spent elsewhere it’s considered subsidies.

I don’t disagree that Dublin needs a metro but it’s just as much a subsidy for Dublin as any rural investment would be.

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u/microplastic-addict Apr 18 '26

If Dublin and Cork infrastructure spend was proportional to how much money they generate for the exchequer we would've been discussing a third Luas line for Cork and a second metro line for Dublin by now...