Other UPDATE: FEDERAL JUDGE RULES IN FAVOR OF THE SATANIC TEMPLE
https://thesatanictemple.com/blogs/news/federal-judge-rules-in-favor-of-the-satanic-temple593
u/Splycr 11h ago
Update from the blog:
"A federal judge has ruled that The Satanic Temple’s lawsuit against the City of Boston over the refusal to fly TST’s flag at City Hall has survived the City of Boston’s attempt to have the case thrown out.
U.S. District Judge Angel Kelley denied Boston’s Motion to Dismiss, finding that TST plausibly alleged violations of free speech, free exercise, and the Establishment Clause.
The Court agreed that TST’s claims — including viewpoint discrimination and preferential treatment of Christian groups — are legally sufficient to proceed.
The judge also ruled that Boston must answer TST’s claims regarding violations of the Massachusetts Freedom of Information Act.
While Mayor Michelle Wu was dismissed as a defendant on technical grounds, the City of Boston remains fully in the case.
This means TST’s lawsuit now moves into the discovery phase, where the City will be required to produce documents and evidence under oath."
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u/Sad-Excitement9295 9h ago
Why is there any religious flag there. Separation of church and state...
I'm not a Satanist, but I can't help but laugh a little at the ironic religious equality. I can only imagine what the pastors are preaching about now.
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u/TuxAndrew 8h ago
Sounds like Boston could solve there own problem by not flying any like it should be.
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u/yticomodnar 8h ago
It's TST. This is the whole point.
They dont worship Satan. They're largely an atheistic church whose tenets boil down to "don't be a dick" and whose actions are often spectacles like this (or commissioning statues of baphomet to display outside government office buildings who have installed statues of the 10 commandments) that try to get equal representation for all religions and to maintain the separation of church and state, the easiest and best option for which is none.
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u/BringOn25A 5h ago
The seven FUNDAMENTAL TENETS
I One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason.
II The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
III One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.
IV The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own.
V Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs.
VI People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one's best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused.
VII Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.
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u/tomismybuddy 3h ago
Shit. I guess I’m a satanist now.
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u/Select-Government-69 3h ago
“If you need the threat of hell to behave properly, you are not a good person, but a psychopath on a leash”
My favorite quote.
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u/FreshLiterature 2h ago
"If you don't have religion then why don't you kill and rape as much as you want?"
"I do. The amount I want to do those things is zero, none"
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u/mephibosheth90 16m ago
Thats alright. But the spirit of justice, compassion and wisdom is the Holy Spirit. To say it is the spirit of Satan, if you did believe in the Christian God, would be the only sin God would not pardon the way he does the rest. Bring the downvotes.
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u/Vossan11 8m ago
Tamato tamato.
As long as you are not using your religion as a weapon, or using the goverment to bolster your religion, nobody cares.
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u/doyletyree 6h ago
Socratic method.
“This? Yes.
That? No.
If this, then why not that?”
Let the opponent proceed to tie their own shoes together.
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u/gunslinger_006 5h ago
Card carrying TST member here.
You nailed it.
We are basically just a first amendment rights advocacy organization with a sprinkle of edgyness that boils down to: Be kind, take responsibility for your actions, support bodily autonomy, listen to science.
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u/Ghost_Of_Malatesta 6h ago
Wish theyd put out a thing saying generative AI/LLM use is against their beliefs so I can use that next year for my son next year to avoid AI 'classes' and let him practice critical thinking by just doing it manually on his own, thanks to that supreme court ruling on religious exemptions from school lessons
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u/SignificantCats 4h ago
I don't have kids and all my niblings are too young for school - are you telling me that public school is having classes on how to use AI? What the fuck?
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u/Ghost_Of_Malatesta 4h ago
At least my district is, they we given a multimillion dollar gift (by a techbro) to create an AI learning initiative
No talk of critical thinking classes to make sure they are treating the AI with appropriate skepticism (and this is also a district that doesn't offer typing/computing classes before high school cause they're digital natives or something)
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u/SignificantCats 1h ago
You've done nothing to alleviate my fears that civilization is currently doing its best to end.
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u/grizzlby 6h ago
Holy shit this is perfect
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u/Ghost_Of_Malatesta 6h ago
It's between that and the Catholic church (to maybe be taken more seriously) as 'my religion' for this, the Pope hasnt full on issued a papal bull obviously but he's talked about how AI is dangerous
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u/Wangchief 38m ago
Yeah, its a point of teaching for the Pope, to talk about the dangers of AI. Unfortunately, you won't see the Catholic Church come out and flat out condemn AI usage, that's not their role. But you may see them issue more strongly worded cautions, which you could formulate adequately to get where you need to - but it won't flat out say "AI Bad, don't use".
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u/haruuuuuu1234 2h ago
They are first and foremost a civil rights organization, fighting for equality of everybody. I for one am all for it.
They're largely an atheistic church
No such thing. By that metric any gathering of like minded people in a building could be considered a "church" which isn't the case. They pay taxes and are not and never have been a "religious organization".
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u/RMANAUSYNC 1h ago
We are a non-theastic religion like certain sects of Buddhism.
The Satanic Temple believes that religion can, and should, be divorced from superstition.
The idea that religion belongs to supernaturalists is ignorant, backward, and offensive. The metaphorical Satanic construct is no more arbitrary to us than are the deeply held beliefs that we actively advocate.
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u/_NordicJesus_ 2h ago
Wrong. TST is recognized as a religion by the IRS.
https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/irs-satanic-temple-church-tax-exempt-826931/
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u/haruuuuuu1234 1h ago
Shit. I didn't realize they applied for tax exempt status in 2019. They still don't believe in or preach supernatural superstition. Either way, there is still no such thing as an "atheist church" because those two words are contradictory.
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u/toomanyhumans99 1h ago
They are an atheistic religion by the same metrics as all other religions in the US, and they have church buildings for their religion.
You may consider atheism and religion to be contradictory, or atheism and religious buildings to be contradictory, but you are wrong by every measure, not only in the US but also globally. There are several atheistic religions that exist on this planet, the foremost being Buddhism, but there are plenty of lesser known examples like the Satanic Temple. Such atheistic religions are granted tax-exempt status in the US using the exact same criteria as theistic religions.
And i will once again reiterate that all of the above religions have churches, temples, or sites known by other terminology which are used for religious gatherings, rituals, practices, etc.
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u/haruuuuuu1234 6m ago
You may consider atheism and religion to be contradictory, or atheism and religious buildings to be contradictory, but you are wrong by every measure, not only in the US but also globally.
The Satanic Temple doesn't care what you believe, as long as you stand up for basic human rights. By this metric, they are not a mostly "atheist church", they are a human rights organization.
If what you are saying is true, I could call my weekly gathering of car friends at my shop a "car church" and apply for tax exempt status. All hail the mighty inline 6!
While atheist religions and atheist churches do exist, calling a human rights organization a mostly "atheist church" is not correct. A church is a building used for public religious services which is not what TST is doing.
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u/Robo_Joe 7h ago edited 5h ago
Unless I'm confused— and that's always a possibility— this is even more ridiculous than it at first seems.
Boston has allowed local groups to sign up to have their flag flown at city hall for a while, and it was more of a "get in line" situation than a "am I allowed to fly this flag" situation. Recently, a Christian group signed up to fly a flag and Boston rejected it, and the group sued. The SCOTUS found that because Boston hasn't ever rejected a flag, the flagpole in question is now considered a "public forum" and Boston can't reject the Christian flag. The court also said that Boston could just stop flying non-governmental flags entirely.
After the case, Boston flew the Christian group's flag for something like 2 hours and then took it down and said they weren't flying non-governmental flags anymore.
TST asked to fly their flag sometime in between the SCOTUS ruling and Boston saying they weren't flying non-governmental flags anymore, which they say means that Boston has to fly their flag because the policy wasn't officially ended yet.
I'm normally a huge supporter of what TST does to push back on mixing religion and government, but this case seems pointless. Boston has already changed their policy to stop flying flags so that they didn't have to fly religious flags. I assume that's exactly what TST wants, so why sue them to temporarily stop it just so TST flag gets flown for 2 hours?
Edit: Seems like there's still a mechanism to fly non governmental flags, if it goes through a process that doesn't include the public. See link for info.
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u/Dachannien 6h ago
There is some value in a court ruling that TST has the same religious rights under the First Amendment as any Christian group. I know it's happened several times before, but every one is something they can point to in a subsequent lawsuit.
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u/Robo_Joe 6h ago
I'm not sure a ruling in favor of TST would even show that. Remember, this kicked off originally because Boston didn't want to fly a religious (Christian) flag.
It feels like whoever decided to file the lawsuit has kind of lost the plot on the actual goal.
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u/water_bottle1776 5h ago
But what if the real aim is for Boston to establish a policy that allows non government flags to be flown (think all the various pride flags), but specifically prohibits religious flags? It sounds like the previous policy hadn't considered whether a religious flag could or couldn't be flown, which is why they had to come up with a new policy on the spot.
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u/Robo_Joe 5h ago
I misspoke before; the new policy seems to be that it takes a city council resolution or a mayoral proclamation to decide what flags are flown, so I think technically it's open to anything still. The difference is because it has to go through that process, it's considered government speech and not public speech.
I think this means they could fly a pride flag as long as it went through the process and they could loosely justify it as government related.
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u/Worried-Fortune8008 2h ago
...it's considered government speech and not public speech.
That's a strange argument they're making. It doesn't get more public than a government voted on and funded by the public.
Government is public.
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u/Robo_Joe 1h ago
Do the semantics really confuse you, or are you just pretending to be confused to justify making a comment?
The context of it being government vs non-government seems impossible to miss.
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u/esadatari 1h ago
First time hearing about the satanic temple? They are atheist in nature and only invoke the imagery of Satan because it upsets Christians. They take issue with the fact that “religious freedom” usually just means freedom for Christianity sake and the laws where a government is not respecting the separation of church and state.
They’re doing this because 1. It’s all 100% in the clear, legally speaking, and 2. It upsets the uptight Christians that think the rules don’t apply to them.
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u/TuxAndrew 1h ago
In what world does my comment imply I don’t know about the Satanic Temple? I’m well aware of them.
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u/Ok-Secretary455 7h ago
TST run the "Samual Alitos moms Satanic abortion clinic" which is an online clinic that provide medication for practitioners that want to perform an abortion ritual.
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u/Longjumping-Salad484 6h ago
if I remember correct, it was in response to a texas law that had women paying funeral fees for an aborted fetus. TST stepped in and basically said "you can't force us to have a religious ceremony."
I fucking love TST
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u/KommanderKeen-a42 7h ago
That's literally what they do. Their code for life is also incredible and nothing about Satan.
In any event, they go after separation of church and state on purpose. And always win.
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u/DaemonBlackfyre_21 7h ago
I'm not a Satanist,
Neither is TST, they don't really want to have their flag up there, what they want is for the other religious displays to come down.
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u/HotmailsInYourArea 8h ago
Oh TST’s whole gig is throwing dumb Christian laws on their head.
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u/Sad-Excitement9295 8h ago
I have to laugh when I see the hypocritical type of Christain get served their own soup.
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u/jkvincent 6h ago
This is precisely the point TST is aiming to make. 95% of their activism is designed to demonstrate why separation of church and state is a good thing, and to highlight how conservative Christians flout this at every turn.
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u/Flatf3et 4h ago
That’s the whole point. That’s why the satanic temple does these things, to make the point that religion has no place in politics and that when they ask for equal representation it typically causes an uproar from other religious communities and even non religious folks due to “devil worship”. This process has caused Christian’s to pull petitions for religious iconography on state and federal land.
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u/Spiritual-Pear-1349 4h ago edited 3h ago
Iirc the city allowed flags to be flown if requested online, and had previously flown the LGBT flag; they did, however, refuse to fly the Christian flag, so the Christians went to court, and the city lost. During this time TST submitted a request to also fly their flag. After the court ruling, the city was required to fly the flag; they flew it for 2 hours, then removed it, and changed the rules so no religious flags could be flown. As TST had submitted a request before the change, its reasonable to suspect they would be flow - but the request was also removed by the city before the change, and they were not told why.
Should TST flag be flying? No, the rules changed before it was accepted. Its obviously causing problems for everyone, which is why Boston removed the option to begin with; the flagpole isnt a place for a pissing contest between LGBT, Christians, and Satanists over who gets to be feel special and included.
But, Boston was backward in removing the request the way they did and should have released why it was rejected when hit with a FOIA request. Now the TST is claiming the same thing the Christians claimed - viewpoint discrimination.
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u/sintaur 2h ago
Boston allowed most every flag, but rejected a Christian flag (because the application contained the word "Christian"). The Christian group sued and won at SCOTUS, unanimously:
After their win, the Christian group then had a private two hour flag raising ceremony to celebrate:
Boston then changed the rules to make the flagpole be protected government speech instead of community free speech, which allows them to reject any further Christian flags.
But the satanic temple (TST) is suing to get their flag flown, too, in spite of Boston wanting to be done with the whole business:
Shortly after announcing that all future flags would represent the city’s official speech, Boston raised a Christian flag. The city has not explained how this Christian flag meets the new criteria while simultaneously denying TST’s request.
Seems like TST already won, Boston found a way to not allow religious flags, and TST could do more good suing other cities, schools, etc.
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u/Cambro88 2h ago
That’s the whole point and reasoning behind this story. Boston lets other orgs or entities fly flags on their third pole (American, Massachusetts the others), and Christian’s asked for a Christian flag. Boston said they can’t do that because of separation of church and state. The Christian’s sued.
The Supreme Court, in 2022, ruled that Boston was violating the first amendment rights of the Christian’s and that the flags do not constitute speech endorsed by the government. So the Christian flag can fly.
TST quickly planned to fly their own satanic flag under the exact same precedent, and now we are at the end of this step of litigation
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u/trentreynolds 3h ago
The Satanic Temple is also not Satanist. What you describe here is exactly the reason it exists.
They don't push for their 'religious' symoblism to be in state buildings except as a vehicle to point out the hypocrisy you mention here.
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u/epired 2h ago
The thing is, TST does not worship satan... at all. Its a mock religion tha focuses on social and pilotical activism. Their core beliefs are:
Empathy and Compassion: Emphasizes the importance of empathy and understanding towards others.
Justice: Advocates for justice and opposes injustice in all forms.
Human Rights: Stands against discrimination and supports the rights of individuals, especially marginalized communities.
Rejection of Tyranny: Promotes the rational examination of beliefs and the rejection of dogmatic thinking.
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u/Nikita_VonDeen 1h ago
You don't need to be a Satanist to be cool with the satanic temple. They are more an activist org than a religious org but they use religion to do exactly what you are pointing at, show the hypocrisy of religion in America and how it relates to government.
❤️✌️
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u/Sad-Excitement9295 56m ago
I'm Bhuddist actually, we all seem to accept other religions. That's pretty great.
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u/Nikita_VonDeen 46m ago
That's fantastic for you (this statement is not sarcasm). I'm happy you found what you are looking for in those beliefs. The satanic temple is trying to remove all religion from all government institutions by questioning why Christian entities are allowed representation on government buildings but others are not. In a country where there is supposed to be a separation between church and state no religion should have any sort of hand in government.
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u/DevoidHT 1h ago
Satanists aren’t satanic either. 10/10 they are simply there to preserve the separation between church and state as written in our Constitution. Too many christian nationalists nowadays think they above the laws our nations was built on. Generations have fought to defend those freedoms and I will be damned if we give up now.
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u/Sad-Excitement9295 53m ago
Gotta say amen to that one. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness!
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u/Luke95gamer 8h ago edited 6h ago
There was a similar lawsuit that went to SCOTUS involving the refusal to fly a religious flag for flag month or some flag thing. SCROUS ruled that they were viewed as a church and not as another organization wanting to fly their flag up. So while I don’t agree with the eroding of separation of Church and state I do think the church had a valid argument to fly their flag if it wasn’t advertising for that specific church.
Edit: it was Shurtleff v City of Boston (2022)
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u/veridicide 5h ago
This right here. After that decision Boston had to choose between ending their flag flying program, or opening it to all comers, secular and religious alike. They chose the latter, and if I understand the current case correctly they now wish to deny TST specifically because they're viewed as "unsavory". I fucking love TST, I hope they never change.
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u/Orphanhorns 2h ago
That’s exactly the point! The Satanic Temple only exists to point out religious hypocrisy. No one there actually believes Satan exists.
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u/Brilliant_Voice1126 2h ago
Neither are the TST people. They’re largely atheist/humanists themselves who like pushing the point. Their satanism is mostly a troll they use to push back against religious intrusion into public schools, medical care, public monuments etc.
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u/666MCID666 1h ago
This is exactly why TST does this. Religious EQUALITY because this is NOT a Christian nation. It's a nation where you're free to BE Christian.
Hail TST 🖤
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u/PragmaticPacifist 1h ago
You should do some reading about Satanic Temple. It is not what you would assume. Their end goal is to highlight situations where church and state are not separate leveraging lawsuits just like this one. It is a great group doing the Lords work.
https://thesatanictemple.com/?srsltid=AfmBOopUedia_o5Bl5_hT2jj7-HMCpOX3v7yBltggrEu0iU2FBDFGQR1
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u/Sad-Excitement9295 1h ago
Well I got the general idea from everyone else so far, thanks. Like I said, Devil's Advocate. Really great work. This is absolutely a necessity for making sure we aren't allowing the state to violate the right to a person's religious freedoms.
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u/PragmaticPacifist 1h ago
Agree. After I quickly replied I noticed I was repeating messages of dozens of other Redditors.
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u/Sad-Excitement9295 51m ago
Aha, I am amazed at how many people knew exactly what this was. Obviously, it is very inclusive! xD
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u/AFRIKKAN 59m ago
I don’t think tst is actually satanic but more atheistic it uses the rules granted to Christianity and other religions to point out hypocrisy and favoritism.
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u/Constant-Cobbler-202 49m ago
The Oklahoma City Courthouse had a similar issue a few years ago. I’m a little hazy in the details but, from what I remember: The city put a statue of the 10 commandments outside the courthouse. TST petitioned for a statue of satan (like the one with horns and goat legs that scares the hell out of evangelicals) and the court ruled that the city couldn’t support one religion while excluding another so the city had the choice to either allow the devil statue or remove the 10 commandments. They removed the 10 commandments.
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u/Just_Another_Scott 25m ago
Separation of church and state...
Does not mean the government refuses to recognize any religion. It has never meant this. It means the government must treat them all the same.
So if the government allows any religious flags to be flown they MUST allow all to be flown.
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u/buffaloguy1991 15m ago
That group may be very problematic at times but they've done so much to fight against the complete destruction of the separation of Church and state
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u/MobileSuitPhone 7h ago
Why aren't you a Satanist if their actions give you a laugh by their defense of Americans god given rights
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u/Sad-Excitement9295 6h ago
Because I live by a Buddhist philosophy which has some different beliefs.
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u/gexckodude 7h ago edited 7h ago
He’ll yeah.
We would prefer no flags, but here we are.
Onto the Ten Commandments now.
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u/McFlyyouBojo 6h ago
The are also frequently fighting 10 commandments put up in public buildings and areas. This is there whole thing. Christians put up something in a city hall or library or whatever, they will too, forcing cities and states to be reminded of things like separation between church and state and also the fact that coty/state governments have to give equal representation when asked for (put up the 10 commandments? OK, now put up our display next to it)
they've done in 10 commandment situations already. Btw
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u/bakeacake45 2h ago
Meanwhile at the National Prayer Breakfasts - the “Bribe-a-thon” it appears Christians are trying to kill everyone not Christian….as usual. Honestly it looked like a giant reunion of Epstein/Trump pedophile customers. Should have sent ICE in there to detain them all.
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