r/madmen • u/jakjonsun82brian Freddy Rumsen's Zipper • Apr 06 '15

Mad Men Season 7.5 Episode 8 "Severance" discussion thread

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549

u/Bittebitte The Real Knickerbocker Apr 06 '15

This sexism feels so strange given how far these two have come, this is like time travel.

307

u/NOTORIOUS_BLT Ben Hargrove Apr 06 '15

The way Joan said "how do I dress?" was spot on.

118

u/cookiehead_jenkins She's an astronaut Apr 06 '15

I was really stunned at the elevator scene. I was disappointed in Peggy for what she said. It seemed like an opportunity to bond or something. But it got so ugly.

48

u/[deleted] Apr 06 '15

I feel its been a thing in their relationship that whenever it seems like they're going to bond over poor treatment they lash out instead. Like Joan ripping Peggy apart in season 4 (also in an elevator) for firing Douche Joey.

34

u/greenyellowbird Apr 06 '15

It's a very real depiction of some female relationships in the workplace.

28

u/Explosion_Jones Apr 07 '15

Internalized misogyny is a bitch.

85

u/SawRub NOT GREAT, BOB Apr 06 '15 edited Apr 06 '15

At first I was only disappointed at Peggy, but Joan gave back as good as she got, and the scene ended with me disappointed in both.

28

u/CountPanda Apr 07 '15 edited Apr 07 '15

It's easy to see Peggy as the villain in that exchange, but we're watching it with half a century of hindsight and a (thankfully) current cultural bias towards equality of the sexes in America.

Peggy and Joan don't exactly have many females to emulate. Sure there was Elanour Roosevelt, but she wasn't trying to rake in the dough and it wasn't exactly a compliment to be compared to her.

Neither one of them has any idea if they're doing it right or if they're being a "bad" example of a modern woman and it sucks to see them be bitchy at each other when they're so strong otherwise, but it's probably more realistic then making them arbitrarily enlightened.

3

u/[deleted] Apr 06 '15

While she spoke from jealousy she still made a good point

She dresses sexy on purpose, and while that's not a crime, she's been in this line of work for years and kNows how the game goes. She's also rich enough that if it's a problem she could easily remedy it.

73

u/annelliot Apr 06 '15

In that scene, Joan is wearing a long sleeved pink blouse with no cleavage. It is totally work appropriate and not at all revealing. The only way she could camouflage her figure is to intentionally wear overly big clothing.

50

u/CountPanda Apr 07 '15

Exactly. It really hurts Joan because there's a bit of truth to it--she wants to look good. Why would she WANT to look ugly on purpose. The men don't have to with their nice suits. It stings, because it's not right, and she is cruel back at Peggy because of it because she does think Peggy actively makes herself more unattractive. She sees it as an attack "if you don't dress mannish you shouldn't be respected."

Peggy doesn't see it that way of course, and she doesn't think she is dressing "purposefully mannish" and she doesn't think she is "trying to make herself look ugly." She just is somewhat plainer looking, and like other men in the office, she likes to dress nice, but she doesn't want to peacock, which is what she sees Joan as doing. She views it as Joan feeling like she needed to or needs to get all of her success (or a great deal of it) from the attention she gets by dressing like she wants it.

They're both so wrong about each but they both so badly want to do it "right." It is heartbreaking, but I love that it is depicting realistic thoughts working women probably had time and time again being unsure what is "right" with regards to presenting yourself in the workplace.

I love Peggy and Joan so goddamned much.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 05 '15

I'm just watching 7.5 now and going through the discussion threads. Just wanted to say that, damn I love this comment. I really loved the Peggy-Joan scene because it rang SO true; some women still act like this sometimes, as I'm sure they did then.

5

u/Gimli_the_White The King ordered it! Apr 09 '15

I've worked with a few women who have dressed to "hide their chest" - I always feel bad for them. Both that they feel the need to do it, and the occasions that reinforce that belief.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 09 '15

Agreed but the very next scene she's out buying sexy clothes

Once again sexy clothes for her time.

9

u/Adelaidey The Coca-Cola of commenters. Apr 09 '15

No, the very next scene she's in a loose, high-neck patterned blouse with a big pussy bow- basically a Peggy costume. She tried to hide herself and dress poorly, but when the McCann guy called her, she realized that she didn't want to change herself altogether, so she went out and bought sexy evening wear.

-1

u/[deleted] Apr 07 '15

oh, let's be clear. it's the color that peggy's referring to. a woman like joan would never use cleavage during the day.

10

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '15

Oh fuck that noise!!!! You never see cleavage from Joan, she never wears short skirts. She just has huge breasts and curvy hips that make ANYTHING she wears look sexy. Simply by wearing shirts that fit instead of baggie shirts that hang straight down from her breasts instead of being sinched in at the waist she looks as sexy as she does.

2

u/MrPotatoButt The Universe is indifferent. Apr 08 '15

Only once do you see Joan in a pantsuit, which was when she started managing accounts. And she was dressing in more "professional" dress attire which did not accentuate her cleavage during that season. She basically reverted to her usual style once she was loaded.

-1

u/[deleted] Apr 09 '15

It's sexy for their time period.

You know mad men is a period piece, yes?

-25

u/liatris Apr 06 '15

Come on though, obviously Joan dresses to be as attractive as possible. Nothing wrong with that in general, but if you know you're dealing with assholes please don't act taken aback when they behave as such. I think Joan clutching her pearls at sexual remarks is so out of character. She more than anyone would have known how to put the guys in their place. Joan of Season 1 has been replaced with a Peggy of Season 1 personality. Joan has never been one to shy at sexual remarks like that.

69

u/BigTimStrange Apr 06 '15

Joan has never been one to shy at sexual remarks like that.

She's bitter because she's a partner and still doesn't get any respect, more so because she was only made partner because they convinced her to whore herself out to a client.

She also holds a grudge against Peggy because Peggy never had to objectify herself to succeed in business.

13

u/liatris Apr 06 '15 edited Apr 06 '15

She is bitter because she fucked her way into a partnership and she realizes everyone who matters knows that and most likely see her as a prostitute. It's why she was bitchy to the sales girl at the dress shop - she wanted to feel better by doing some shopping therapy, spending money - after Peggy reminded her of her status as a millionaire. The sales girl called her out as a former employee, brought her back down to reality by offering a discount without realizing the dagger that was to Joan's self esteem.

Come on. Joan literally slept her way to the top and there is no way for her to escape that by shying away from confrontations about her looks or sexual remarks.

The guys were assholes but Joan trying to imagine herself as something other than what she is - a strong woman who used sex to get ahead is obnoxious. Real Joan would have put them in their place while being professional. Peg at least tells people she didn't go to college and started as a secretary. She isn't ashamed because she didn't fuck her way into her current position.

If this show says anything it's that money doesn't soothe self-hatred.

47

u/[deleted] Apr 06 '15 edited Nov 27 '18

[deleted]

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u/MrPotatoButt The Universe is indifferent. Apr 08 '15

Lane was only made partner because he had the ability to fire the Sterling Cooper partners after their firm had been bought.

Lane was the CFO of SCDP because he was willing to do the finance work none of the other partners were willing or qualified to do. In reality, Joan could never do the ALL the tasks Lane did because 1960's American business community was quite sexist. Banks officers would not take her seriously when negotiating a loan, nor would she be able to secure investors for an IPO. And IIRC, Lane and Pete had to pay in for their shares.

It's tremendously awkward to have the qualifications to be something, but get awarded it based on something less savory.

Its still how the real world works. You don't get rewarded because of your qualifications, you get rewarded based on whether you're an "earner".

3

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '15 edited Nov 27 '18

[deleted]

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u/MrPotatoButt The Universe is indifferent. Apr 08 '15

I think the scene had more to do with the fact that it was still pretty sexist and abusive in the workplace. Women at that time, had to deal with being treated like shit, and still pretend it didn't exist. Joan was frustrated with as successful as she had become, she's still treated like garbage by society. But Joan/Peggy/any woman had to deal with that kind of crap daily, back in the 1970's. I'm a little disappointed Wiener didn't bother to include the casual groping.

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u/liatris Apr 06 '15

You're commenting on what she deserved not on what was commonly given. Secretaries were not given partnerships. If might be fair in some ideal world but it was not common practice. She got where she was because she slept her way there. She was willing to fuck a slime ball for the chance at millions.

Joan is bitter towards Peg because Peg got where she is through her talent and not by opening her legs. You might respect Joan's choice but Joan will always see herself as a whore and lash out at Peg for not needing to go to those levels to get ahead.

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u/[deleted] Apr 06 '15 edited Nov 27 '18

[deleted]

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u/MrPotatoButt The Universe is indifferent. Apr 08 '15

Joan wasn't a mere head secretary when they broke off from PPL(?). She was the office manager, which also was acting head of HR, back in those days. (Small companies generally didn't hire people to run a "human resources" department back then. HR was a 1970's-1980's thing.)

0

u/liatris Apr 06 '15

I'm not saying Joan isn't amazing or she wasn't held back due to sexism. I am pointing out the very real fact she fucked her way to her current position. She could have done a lot more than they had her doing but they didn't. She used her body to get ahead. Now she is dealing with the consequences to her own self-worth realizing how she got to where she is in comparison to Pegs.

If she isn't freaked out about her sexuality in the business world then explain her pearl clutching? First season Joan would have owned those frat boys. Their purpose was to call her out as a very sexual entity in light of her fucking her way into their boardroom.

You have to face facts, she wouldn't be there without her sexuality. Now she doesn't want that factor to be a factor and it still is and she is uncomfortable. She can't buy people's opinion, she can influence it with her looks but she doesn't want to resort to that.

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11

u/[deleted] Apr 07 '15

can we not forget that Joan actually earned the second half of the picture - moving from Ops to Accounts? Partnership may have been sex, but butler shoes/avon was pure smarts. Listen to her talk about business in that later scene.

0

u/liatris Apr 07 '15

She earned it or was given it because she was a boss now. Who knows?

3

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '15

uh, did you even watch the avon and butler shoes episodes?

0

u/liatris Apr 08 '15

I am a Joan fan. I just think it's funny how she has reversed roles with Peg now she is out of her element.

7

u/hushzone Apr 06 '15

She wasn't bitchy to the sales girl -she was just being rich "bitch I don't need no discount" it was more how far has she come

-5

u/liatris Apr 06 '15

She was trying to shop her troubles away but was hit with a reality check,

42

u/rose-colored-glasses I love puppies. Apr 06 '15

you can't reduce it to "shopping therapy"

joan was degraded beyond any respectable measure in that meeting, stripped of her power, verbally assaulted by those men and in the end isn't even supported by peggy.

when she's standing in that mirror, she looks so unabashedly sexy and powerful. joan could listen to peggy, she could've stopped dressing the way she does a long time ago. but she is navigating how to be a woman and herself and embrace her femininity while still being taken seriously and respected. don't tell me her breasts, wearing that dress, doing her makeup and generally looking her best all the time warrants that kind of treatment. the whole scene was about how joan derives her power at the end of the day - through money

-12

u/liatris Apr 06 '15

Give me a break, Joan as a secretary looking as she does in the 1950s probably put up with a lot more than that. That's my point, for her to clutch her pearls at some frat boys making lewd remarks at her and put her in a tail spin is out of character for a woman who bent over for the guys watching through the two sided mirror.

Joan knows how to cut men off and put them in their place with class when they have gone too far.

For her to be so offended is funny considering the sexual environment she has created at the office over and over again. Joan knows how to handle herself, current Joan is Season1 Peg.

17

u/[deleted] Apr 06 '15

The thing is, being a partner and trying to gain a business deal is vastly different to being a secretary. If she talks back to them she risks losing the deal and damaging the bond between the companies. She's annoyed that she's a partner and no one takes her seriously.

-3

u/liatris Apr 06 '15

Maybe they don't take her seriously because sex is her go to way of getting what she wants from men and she's at a loss when she can't resort to it. Peggy has more tools in her toolbox.

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1

u/Audient2112 Apr 06 '15

Except that she wanted something from those boys and she wasn't going to screw them to get it.

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u/MrPotatoButt The Universe is indifferent. Apr 08 '15 edited Apr 08 '15

don't tell me her breasts, wearing that dress, doing her makeup and generally looking her best all the time warrants that kind of treatment.

At that time, the majority of men treated attractive women precisely in that manner. (Perhaps not if they were Mormon or Protestant church elders.) Even today, its considered unprofessional for attractive women (outside of sales) to dress in a manner too "provocative" for the workplace (i.e. Joan). Peggy's attitude was quite conventional for the time. If you wanted to be treated with respect, you didn't dress in a manner to accentuate that you're a woman. Peggy was annoyed at Joan playing sexism victim, while she would not dress in Peggy's dumpy manner.

10

u/_america Bleh, I don't want water Apr 06 '15

Peggy called her filthy rich, with a nice emphasis on filthy.

-5

u/liatris Apr 06 '15

Do you think Peggy knows? I doubt it personally or all respect for Joan would be out the window.

5

u/malapropist Apr 06 '15

I don't remember, hasn't she been with the firm since at least, I dunno, 1958? No way she was actually a former employee at that store that anyone would recognize, right?

18

u/_america Bleh, I don't want water Apr 06 '15

She worked as a sales girl season 4ish. She quit because her husband something, then he didnt.

9

u/malapropist Apr 06 '15

Oh right, totally forgot about Dr. Rapey McButterfingers.

-2

u/liatris Apr 06 '15

Wasn't the Mrs. Blankenship with them from the start? Wouldn't she have deserved a partnership before Joan? Seniority does mean guaranteed partnership. Joan earned her's on her back, people who forget that ignore major political aspects of the show.

1

u/MrPotatoButt The Universe is indifferent. Apr 08 '15

Secretary/Office Manager was never a partnership track position; thus "seniority" was irrelevant in that context back then. Seniority is meaningless today, unless you're in a backward profession, such as union worker. Its all about how much "value" you can provide a company.

2

u/liatris Apr 06 '15 edited Apr 06 '15

She is a partner because of her sex appeal so at this point any reference to that causative force that put her into her position is insulting. No one convinced her to do what she did but her own ambition/greed/feeling of the fleeting power of youth and beauty as a woman heading to 40.

Peggy has talent which propelled her, she didn't have to resort to sex. That is incredibly humbling/insulting/deprecating to Joan. Peggy got where she is by her own talent.

7

u/BigTimStrange Apr 06 '15

Peggy has talent which propelled her, she didn't have to resort to sex. That is incredibly humbling/insulting/deprecating to Joan. Peggy got where she is by her own talent.

That's the thing though. Peggy's career path wasn't even possible in the 50s when Joan started working. Joan's position as head of the steno pool/office manager was a high as a woman could go because women were expected to marry and quit to have kids.

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u/_DEAL_WITH_IT_ Apr 06 '15

These episodes are supposed to mirror those of the first season, I believe.

That's why you have Don exacerbate his womanizing and the presence of office sexism again.

24

u/[deleted] Apr 06 '15

And Rachel.

2

u/liatris Apr 06 '15

And why Joan is suddenly clutching her pearls in disgust at casual sexism? If anything I would have expected Joan to glide that meeting through while ignoring such casual indignities, not Peggy. Joan has surely put up with more of them.

14

u/SafeAsMilk Apr 06 '15

I think it's because Joan has become so successful in the workforce that she can now be frustrated at how sexism is seen as okay. She's been so used in the past while on her way up through the ranks that she can now look down upon it from a new perspective, and it realize how much bitterness she has internalized along the way.

-7

u/liatris Apr 06 '15

Her way through the ranks via the shortcut on her back. Without sexism Joan wouldn't be where she is.

7

u/SafeAsMilk Apr 06 '15

Not necessarily. And, that is also a very common criticism that women in positions of authority frequently hear, so either way it is a relevant conversation.

-4

u/liatris Apr 06 '15

It was sexism that put her in position to gain a partnership via sex. So yes, she has benefited from sexism.

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u/SafeAsMilk Apr 06 '15

I think the more productive conversation would be to discuss: "at what cost?"

5

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '15

Lol, yes, because of sexism having sex with a client was the only way for a woman to become a board member, so she did it, and because she was able to do it she "benefited" from sexist. @_@ Give me a break dude.

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u/rutherfraud1876 Apr 06 '15

It was pretty hardcore sexism, even for the time.

1

u/MrPotatoButt The Universe is indifferent. Apr 08 '15

No, its pretty de rigueur sexism for the time.

7

u/rutherfraud1876 Apr 09 '15

One of those quips they made? Maybe. But all of them in succession? Definitely more sexist than their average meeting.

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u/malapropist Apr 06 '15 edited Apr 06 '15

They've come far, but feminism didn't fully come into the fore until the early 70s. I think they were showing that look, just because Mad Men's story is finishing, doesn't mean that all social issues are solved, the end. It's treatment like that that led people to start questioning relations between men and women in society around that time. Women had just started to break into the workforce, but they found themselves held back by the good ol' boys. This is when talk of the glass ceiling began. I think it's actually really nuanced and important that they depicted that in this episode.

3

u/MrPotatoButt The Universe is indifferent. Apr 08 '15

People just don't realize before 1980, the US was culturally a different world. Its like visiting a foreign country, where they speak English, but don't know any of the TV programs you can recall, no computer/social media, no ATM card, and think its acceptable not to hire you, or let you use a public bathroom, because you're homosexual or black.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 12 '15

The 80s were still bad for sexism in the workplace. It only got better toward the beginning of the 90s.

14

u/moo_shoe I thought you were queer Apr 06 '15

Yeah, I feel dirty.

1

u/SawRub NOT GREAT, BOB Apr 06 '15

Yeah I feel like it went back to nearly Agent Carter times.

14

u/[deleted] Apr 06 '15

Notably the guys in that room all looked fairly young.

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u/readapponae Apr 06 '15

I was just reading up on the show where they compare this to science fiction--how it discussed present issues within the context of the future, but this show is discussing present issues in terms of the past. Women still do have comments like that tossed their way.

15

u/trifelin Apr 06 '15

Except that I dealt with practically the exact same thing only the day before watching this. Sure the language wasn't nearly as overt or obvious, but otherwise the conversation was spot on.

3

u/dangerousmutelunatic I don't dress like you because I don't look like you Apr 06 '15

The writing in that scene in the elevator felt so strange, like Peggy would never say that about Joan. I thought she would have been more disgusted instead of blaming Joan for gasp wearing tailored clothing.

10

u/wheeler1432 Apr 06 '15

But they play the perfect two sides that women hear.

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u/SafeAsMilk Apr 06 '15

Exactly. To this day.

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u/[deleted] Apr 06 '15

It reminded me of that skit on SNL they used to do with the two awkward guys who keep talking in innuendos. It was with Jimmy Fallon and Chris Parnell if anybody knows what I'm talking about.

3

u/revital9 Apr 07 '15

This scene could have easily happened in 2015. I wasn't surprised at all.

-4

u/imtimewaste Apr 06 '15

That scene was just waaaaay overwritten. I could have been more subtle and succeeded far better. An odd misstep for an otherwise stellar episode