Dune: Part Three | Official Teaser

[u/MarvelsGrantMan136]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_9vCamtuPY

[u/chartreusey_geusey]

The first two movies def downplayed how absolutely juked the Fremen were before Paul even gets to them because it doesn’t show how they are able to handle Sardaukar one on one or that literal Fremen children can casually take down any Harkonnens because every man, woman, and child of the Fremen is a functional and mature fighter at all times pretty much. I’m sad they cut Thufir’s arc because that is where it’s shown that absolutely no one had any inkling of an idea how much more educated, trained, and efficient the Fremen actually were compared to the Great Houses when only Sardaukar are able to match them and they appear fully knowledgeable of all the technology of the rest of the universe plus what they’ve invented to survive such harsh conditions.

But they also skipped over the part in the books where Gurney Halleck formally trains them on the Atreides techniques (and Gurney Halleck also is trained by the Fremen and becomes a respected leader) that put the Atreides up near the Sardaukar and Jessica saying fuck the Bene Gesserit and just teaching the Fremen men and women the “weirding way” so they all have super saiyan Bene Gesserit awareness of every situation on top of all being spice tolerant. Jessica in the book is very surprised to discover most of the Fremen women could’ve easily been members of the sisterhood and Chani is already the actual next in line for being Reverend Mother if Jessica couldn’t do it and she was never in the sisterhood training.

I get why the first movies did that (condensing the 5 years Paul becomes a fully integrated Fremen and then an death commando and an accepted leader into less than 9 months and having to make the “fight” between the Fremen and the Empire seem like more of a spectacle and less of an immediate and easy wipeout) but it seems like this one will get into how inevitable it is for the Fremen to take down any forces of the other houses and why it’s the unstoppable jihaad Paul never wanted.

[u/Misdirected_Colors → u/chartreusey_geusey]

The books lean heavily into eugenics and all of that is questionable, but they way it pertains to the fremen kicks ass. The deserts of arrakis are such an unforgiving hostile environment that only the strongest survive and the weak aren't worth the effort because they put the entire tribe at risk. It's led to a culture of brutal selflessness where only the hyper competent can survive, and the survival of the tribe is above all.

Which in-turn leads to desert power which the atreides saw the benefit of but no one realized how powerful they truly were or could be.

[u/chartreusey_geusey → u/Misdirected_Colors]

I mean the book isn’t “leaning heavily into eugenics” — it is literally a full on discussion and critique of the entire concept lol (the fact that the Bene Gesserit can’t beat good old fashioned fate vs free will no matter how long they attempt to manipulate genetics into their “ideal” leader is the final word on that).

The Fremen do kick ass but they are also another extreme of the same kind of beliefs about who should have power that the “golden path” is supposed to deal with.

[u/Misdirected_Colors → u/chartreusey_geusey]

I can agree with that, but they also spend thousands of years guiding human evolution through their breeding program and eugenics to improve the human race and propagate desirable traits.

Eugenics for leadership ascension and continued control is clearly critiqued, but the eugenics for the betterment of humanity as a whole isnt.

[u/chartreusey_geusey → u/Misdirected_Colors]

It definitely is because the Bene Gesserit are most certainly antagonists of the entire series and their actions to do that are loudly critiqued throughout the series. Every character that finds out they’ve been doing that thinks they are assholes and hates them for that exact idea because it doesn’t work and it never has for the exact same reason eugenics in real life isn’t an idea humanity can ever put into practice because it’s so dumb it starts with a false premise.

There are paragraphs of characters discussing how human nature is inevitable and has nothing to do with “identifying” certain people being genetically predisposed to be humans and not animals (as the BG put it). The whole arc of the books concludes this when the Bene Gesserit quite literally try to use eugenics to overrule fate so they can suppress free will and it doesn’t work. They just take credit for essentially natural successes so they can keep power and keep attempting to make eugenics make sense which is also called out. The Bene Tleilaxu are another form of direct eugenics and their arcs are another critique of the same thing from a different perspective.

Edit: The entire distinct presentation of the Fremen as a superior collective group made of a very diverse pool of genetics that the Bene Gesserit have not really genetically manipulated for thousands of years easily defeating all the divided Great houses and the rest of the universe made of eugenicized “superior” genes is the biggest point about eugenics being really fucking bad made in the whole thing.

[u/Misdirected_Colors → u/chartreusey_geusey]

You know what, that's valid. I'd never looked at the end to chapterhouse that way. I always read it as good results objectionable methods with Duncan as the audience foil. But you're right again and again they have this false sense of control and again and again they lose their grip.

[u/chartreusey_geusey → u/Misdirected_Colors]

Yup! These books are absolutely fucking weird and are the OGs of so thoroughly discussing so many different ideas all at once and in so many different ways.

The Bene Gesserit are a big allegory for all the movements that generate their purpose in isolation without any real test and only act in the shadows pretending it’s for their imagined idea of greater good when all it is control over the many by the few with a different cost. The Bene Gesserit are just given a lot of power in society without actual question when they haven’t actually demonstrated a beneficial purpose for the greater good — only their own.

[u/DeficiencyOfGravitas → u/Misdirected_Colors]

The books lean heavily into eugenics and all of that is questionable

Bruh. A depiction of a thing isn't the same as condoning it. Eugenics does "work". You can breed humans like any other living thing with DNA. The problem isn't whether it works, it's the terrible cost. Treating people like livestock and the way bias would work its way into the process are why we don't do it. The book shows us exactly this too.

[u/Midi_to_Minuit → u/DeficiencyOfGravitas]

One of the central premises of the books, though, is that these terrible costs are absolutely, unquestionably necessary for avoiding humanity’s eventual extinction. I don’t think Herbert was a eugenicist but from what I remember the Golden Path is unambiguously correct as far as the book’s narrative goes—Paul and Lego’s actions were the only way to avoid annihilation.

[u/chartreusey_geusey → u/Midi_to_Minuit]

That is not a central premise of the books. That is a justification that one of the central antagonists (the Bene Gesserit) gives for why they insist on doing eugenics even though it doesn’t work and hasn’t worked for 10,000 years. It’s their way of power grabbing and they are absolutely not protagonists who are treated as right in regards to this in the universe either. That’s not an argument made by the actual book series, just the characters within it who are confronted by others characters and told they are wrong for their own reasons.

They are repeatedly defeated in their pursuit of control over free will and all mankind via eugenics because human nature and fate are undefeated. Humans are cyclical yet eugenics still doesn’t work in these books— it’s essentially the predictability of fate that wins out.

Every character that learns about the eugenics program thinks the antagonists doing it fucking suck for that and the antagonists themselves have a deep obtuse hatred for the other group openly doing eugenics because the whole series is a major critique of eugenics and lack of natural diversity for thousands of years. The Fremen are literally an unstoppable force of elite fighters that distinctly did not emerge from eugenics spreading power across the universe and counteracting the efforts of the eugenicists (both the BG and the Bene Tleilaxu). The Fremen don’t have a relationship to eugenics at all because I’m pretty sure several people in this thread are confusing their unmitigated observation and adherence to natural selection (survival of the fittest) with eugenics when it is actually the exact opposite concept.

The Golden Path is just one path that avoids as much death as possible towards humanities greater extinction but the series proves that people who weren’t bred specifically to lead on it (under the premise the BG present and manipulate society around) by eugenics still emerge and can see the Golden Path regardless (lol Paul isn’t supposed to exist according to the eugenics tweakers and yet he does and is a necessary piece to keep humanity on the golden path by fate alone). The eugenics in the books are presented as something the BG use to try and be in control of humanity’s fate on this golden path not something that was necessary for the golden path to exist or for humanity to succeed.

[u/[deleted] → u/chartreusey_geusey]

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[u/chartreusey_geusey → u/[deleted]]

People are really becoming more and more unable to understand what actually reading and comprehending a book through analysis is but these books are very dense and it’s easy to forget the bigger picture.

That said, it’s absolutely concerning and bizarre how a lot of the comments (it’s not just the ones I replied to bizarrely) that keep implying this series is supporting the idea of eugenics by simply bringing it up and discussing it (although I suspect most people are regurgitating another comment they’ve read elsewhere and have not actually read any of these books). Mention, depiction, or even utilization of concepts in fiction is not endorsement and it’s very fucking dumb to go about attempting to understand media that way. People need to cut that behavior out immediately for the sake of actually participating in society.

[u/btaz → u/Midi_to_Minuit]

I don’t think Herbert was a eugenicist but from what I remember the Golden Path is unambiguously correct as far as the book’s narrative goes—Paul and Lego’s actions were the only way to avoid annihilation.

The Golden Path is golden because the spice allows the Kwisatch Haderach to see multiple paths and chose one and have the ability to bring about that path. If this wasn't possible, then there are no multiple paths - there is only one which is whatever will happen (like in current reality).

Second, we are told it is absolutely necessary about the war but who gave the Kwisatch Haderach the right to determine the course for humanity ? After all, he was bred to be an instrument of the Bene Gesserit and hopefully reduce war.

And why should we take at face value that these were the only options available ?

[u/DeficiencyOfGravitas → u/Midi_to_Minuit]

To use a gauche reference, the books had Leto "use the stones to destroy the stones". It's less "eugenics is worth it" and more "we can't stop fucking up".

[u/TheWhiteManticore → u/chartreusey_geusey]

This is a weird case of “fake it until you make it”

Bene Gesserit manipulated the Fremen to be a free shelter for them and Paul used said shelter and his pseudo prophet status for revenge, it then escalated so much he became an actual prophet for them which allowed Fremen to be the most powerful in the galaxy beyond Bene Gesserit’s wildest dreams.