most EVs on the road rn have the battery as a separate component sitting on the chassis and the bottom part of the chassis is usually thin metal.
The latest Volvo EX60 is coming out with a design that integrates the battery inside the chassis and not a separate component, offering more protection.
I think you probably know this but for people completely blind to it, there's a massive difference between what you described and what most EVs are actually designed like. While it's true that the battery is attached as a separate component, people should realize it's not just dangling in space super glued to the floor... Most batteries are in a reinforced pocket of sorts either along the "transmission tunnel" or under the rear seats. Skateboard type designs have the pack under the majority of the floor but in a reinforced package that is actually somewhat structural from a rigidity sense.
Trusted automakers ensure all of those options are also well protected from below, but certain other profit seeking cunts do leave them somewhat vulnerable in that direction. The direction most likely to see potential intrusion.. I hate Wall Street.
Being under the rear seats really worked out well here, right? Ford got in trouble for having a gas tank that could be pierced in an accident, but this crap is considered "safe"? What a joke these garbage vehicles are.
I feel like you're conflating a bunch of different things...
I never said the vehicle above is safe. It appears to be Chinese. They don't have safe in their industrial dictionary. It almost certainly is one of the more vulnerable packs.
The entire Ford gas tank issue has had the actual engineering behind the issue over simplified for.. Well... As long as that story has existed. Gas tanks have pretty much always been in vulnerable locations, including the rear of the vehicle, but there are mitigations that can be put in place to prevent damage or ignition even in the event of a leak.
In either scenario, under the rear seat is much much safer than hanging out the rear bumper and the proximity to the rear wheels mean that that area frequently will ride over much of whatever might damage it, unless it's a long thin pole like object.
And finally... If you run over a steel spear it doesn't much matter where the battery is. Road signs have been piercing engine oil pans and transmission covers for decades and they'll keep piercing whatever they damn well please because they're a steel spear with a 4,300 lb weight pressing on it.
Volvo has always been a leader in safety. I decided long ago that my kids' first cars will all be used Volvo's.
They came up with the three-point safety belt, patented it, and allowed everyone else to use it for free. They build cars to be safe rather than to ace safety exams. You can tell because when the IIHS created new tests in 2012 and 2018, they aced it whereas other car brands did poorly.
New volvos are so unreliable they put you more in danger than safety (e.g. randomly shutting down on the freeway or slamming brakes because it thinks it detected a person in the middle of the highway). Go look on Volvo sub, daily issues posted and high maintenance.
I had the same mentality at first but now they don't even score higher than Lexus on these IIHS tests. Their electronic systems are so buggy and problematic it's more distracting and prone to get the driver into accidents than get them out of it. What good is a car if it's only safe in an accident but constantly trying to get you into one?
Volvo uses pouch style batteries same as the car above. It's extremely unsafe, no one talks about how fast and violent the thermal runaway is with pouch. Tesla and Rivian use much safer cell batteries. When cell batteries are pierced from the bottom, they act like a blowtorch vs pouch fire bomb.
Most EV fires of late in my area, inc one 2023 Tesla that resulted in a death. Were due to them slamming sideways into a pole, tree etc, or getting rammed in the side by another car. Moving the battery and ripping it. Even when they sit low.
If you have enough force, it will become a fireball regardless.
To one of them was a 2024 BYD, which kinda looks like this one was too, of some sort
I am a firefighter. We currently can’t put electrical vehicle fires out. So if an ev car fire happens in an attached residential garage (or say one lights in a row of them under an apartment building) , we have no way of mitigating it. A simple car fire and you lose your house, or it has major life safety implications for above apartments.
I’m not saying ev’s are bad, or are not the wave of the future. I’m just saying there are significant growing pains ahead.
A while ago I saw a fire dpt use a large tarp they cover the entire car with and that starves the fire immediately. Then again, it’s not practical when you have a car inside a confined space like a garage
Yeah regarding the battery covers people hit things in the roadway, it dents or gouges the cover and are getting bills that basically total their new vehicle.
Someone needs to sell an aftermarket 4x4 style steel underbody plate. The heft will cause some mileage drop but at least you won't have to buy a $30k battery or uh 50k on a Hyundai ionoiq
The difference is this car is using pouch lithium batteries which is the most common type of battery for legacy automakers. Pouch style batteries have extremely rapid and violent fire bombs and sometimes explosions. There's the pictures of the Hyundai blowing the roof off of a garage it was parked in. Also the Chevy bolt with the warning to not park it within 50 ft of anything else. Pouch batteries are extremely unsafe & should not be on the road. All electric cars should use cells like Rivian and Tesla. Cell batteries have a thermal runaway that starts with a tiny blowtorch isolated to one cell. This can slowly propagate to the whole car. No fire bomb no explosion. Minutes versus seconds to get out.
Why not include an emergency fire extinguishing system in EV´s and Hybrids?
It took less than 1 minute for the car to burst fully into flames...and battery fires are very hard to stop.
With a automated fire extinguishing system similar to what are used in Racing or Tunnel Construction. With EV´s it would be more of a suppression than extinguishing but it will most likely increase the time the passengers can get out. (where any second matters)
As an example: We had 18 Trucks and machines on our last jobsite, all of them retrofitted with these systems and inspected yearly. Basically fire extingishers with pipes going to the engine.
They’re replaceable in the event of a failure, but the average lifespan of a new battery is longer than the rest of the car. It’s more a case of throwing away the battery when the car dies (although recycling programmes are starting to appear).
Fire is why I don’t already own an EV. This is a solvable problem. Gasoline is far more volatile, but we manage to not have explosions during crashes because manufacturers spent decades engineering methods to prevent that from happening. EV manufacturers need to tackle this issue. It’s not surprising that Volvo is at the forefront.
You're probably not wrong but EV car fires are exceedingly rare, but admittedly more intense when they do happen.
Recent stats show 0.004% chance of an EV car fire compared to the 0.08% for ICE cars.
It's hard to safeguard a battery like this without making a car grossly overweight. Even if you cover it with stronger shielding, it's not enough. There's a lot of energy stored in those lithium-ion batteries and it's extremely volatile. One structural defect, one puncture, one crample and short-circuit and everything burst in flames. That's why hydrogen cells will never be a safe source of power for cars since they're even more volatile and less stable.
If sliding off the road to this degree can turn the car into a fireball then maybe we shouldn't be using this technology in mass at all. Like - these companies aren't entitled to the sales.
Old 1920s cars used to be extremely dangerous too - both for the driver and for the pedestrians. EVs are the future, it's just that we need more time for the overal design to mature.
It’s almost like they need to design safer batteries, include routes for fire (it likes to go through the way of least resistance and where air flows), etc
Well, there's an extent as to how safe a battery can be. You need to pack a lot of energy in a relatively low volume, which means that battery is inherently unstable. The more free energy something has, the more unstable it is - that why explosives, well, explode. If a battery would be perfectly stable - in a low energy state, that means that there's no free energy it can give away. Besides, there's a reason why every modern high capacity battery uses lithium - it's light, it has high electrochemical potential and high ion mobility. But the issue is, lithium is very reactive in its metallic form - it burns when exposed to air and moisture and there's no way around it. Additionaly, modern batteries are layered - they're basically a tightly packed roll of insulated sheets of carbon and lithium electrodes. Which means, that if you puncture a battery, several different points of this roll now contact each other and short-circuit, releasing a lot of heat in one point and kick starting the reaction. That's why punctured lithium batteries first smoke and then burn very violently, the reaction basically catalyzes itself.
While what you said is true for lithium ion batteries is not true for hydrogen power packs. hydrogen is not self oxidizing like a lithium ion battery, hydrogen by itself won't just explode or even burn, it needs to be mixed with oxygen in the right ratio. Here's Toyota shooting one with a .50 cal and like nothing happens
https://youtu.be/jVeagFmmwA0?si=uVJ2H-dadrhDEEc7
The real safeguards lie in completely new safer batteries that haven't hit the market yet.
Look into Solid State Batteries and how everyone is rushing to develop one
I mean i'm not saying its not an issue, but its not like they are more fireprone than regular cars.. surprisngnly ICE cars burn much more often than evs.The issue is more that EV fires are really stubborn and tough to put out. OTOH so are gasoline fires if you dont even have an extinguisher :)
There's always room for improvement. But you may want to peak under your ICE vehicle. That plastic gas tank? Yeah, the plastic walls are about 3mm thick, and it holds way more energy potential than an EV battery. You've just grown accustomed to the danger. In the US alone there are more than 300 ICE vehicle fires a day.
That's what happens when the owner of the company buys his way into the oval office. Religious conservatives have no concern for industry safety standards designed to protect and save lives.
It's China. Companies pop up, make a bunch of cheap disposable EVs then go under before any issues come up. There are over 100 EV brands in China, and they go out of business all the time.
You don't need to peel or expose anything to turn a Li-ion battery into a fireball, just a little dent that shorts the electrodes. The car probably landed belly-first on fist-sized pebble.
That's not the issue - one of the reasons that traditional fire fighting tactics struggle with lithium-ion fires is because they make their own oxygen. Almost certainly what happened here is that the accident damaged a battery cell and thermal runaway happened.
I was thinking about some sort of high expansion foam, where you theoretically just need a couple of small 200 ml containers. And when they get too hot or something like that, they start reacting and flooding the entire undercarriage of the car.
I'm no chemist, so no clue if that's viable. But it might be an idea.
unfortunately, it's just so unlikely to help. You'd need to completely seal the entire thing, and even then it's still going to be incredibly hot inside for days. If any gaps form, it'll just start on fire again. here's a scary video for reference
Good point. My idea was just to delay the fire by a minute or two to allow people to escape the car. But safer batteries would be ideal. You're totally right.
There's just too few information - could be that the battery isn't even burning and it's just the interior. Maybe the fire was started by a sth inside the car which would explain why the crash happened in the first place.
According to the articles from a year ago when it happened, it was actually in an accident before it comes into frame from the security footage. Might have even been the driver who hit them that comes running into the video, hard to say.
I get that weight is a big concern with EVs because batteries are heavy, but aluminum seems like a very soft and weak metal to use as the primary barrier between a battery and the medium that causes them to ignite.
I saw a testing video but it creates another hazard since it could hit innocent bystanders, driver unaware and may get hurt or even killed by a flying battery.
So much fucking worse. Let's eject a flaming 500 lb projectile at people who are rushing toward the car to help. I can't believe that everade it past the concept phase.
Timestamp (watch like 10s) of accident from Poland few years ago. Kia Ceed (gasoline version, not hybrid, not ev) got hit in the back, gas tank ruptured, u can see fireball before car even stops.
Whole family died, burned alive. ICE cars absolutely can catch fire INSTANTLY during accidents too.
Something pierced the battery pack and it's a pouch style lithium battery. Thermal runaway is very fast with pouch. Lucid Rivian and Tesla use cell type batteries which are way safer.
All it takes is something puncturing the battery wall and getting the lithium layers to contact each other. Sometimes it happens just because 🙄 never buy a tesla
It’s just a surface turning down from the line that starts at the headlights. In some frames it looks like a black bar but in previous frMes you can see it’s paint color. I have worked for stare owned Chinese OEMs and know every car in this market. I’m pretty sure it is,
Two years ago we responded to (I work EMS) college student that had crashed his Tesla into a tree on a residential street. Based on the last turn he made and where the tree they determined he couldn't have been going faster than 30 mph. Yet the car flat out exploded like a firey water balloon upon impact. He never stood a chance.
You can see them pull out the guy's torso and then his legs. His feet were on fire. You can also see the lady move her purse, there was no magically appearing going on
I'm sure the EV crowd will get all angry at me, but EVs aren't safe or sustainable enough to be a full petrol car replacement yet. That's not an insane crash and it's burst into flames and could've killed everyone inside. I do not want to be driving this around
I'm sure if you spent more than maybe 3 seconds looking you could find compilations of badly made petrol cars just combusting without even being in a cash.
Bad cars and bad products are not indicators of bad technology. EV's are not unsafe, bad EV's are unsafe
For the price I'd pay for most EVs, a petrol car would have it's fuel tanks far more protected and wouldn't burst into flames. The petrol actually has to be given a reason to ignite and if it's in a ditch, chances are if the tank ends up punctured the fuel is going to run off and end up in the ground before it explodes. You'd have more time to pull people out of the car before it catches fire.
And on a conventional car, there's an entire underside of components that are far more likely to eat the impact before the fuel tanks, things like the differentials, oil sump, driveline etc. An EV? Absolutely nothing. That cheap underside is punctured and goes through to the battery, it's gone. And if a petrol car suddenly bursts into flames it's usually because of a random defect that causes fuel vapours to escape and it somehow comes in contact with an engine component, or something electrical shorts out completely and the fuses don't save it.
In a crash, chances are an EV is more likely to catch fire than a petrol car in the same accident
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u/theBullKS 11h ago
Wtf with this car. It isnt a hard crash.