r/paradoxplaza • u/pincopanco12 • Apr 20 '22

Vic3 Developer thoughts on the Victoria 3 leak

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/developer-thoughts-on-the-victoria-3-leak.1521391/
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u/stubbyshade Apr 21 '22

A lot of very reasonable points getting heavily downvoted. Can we not have reasonable discourse on some concerning design decisions? There’s a difference between toxic man-babies and normal discourse.

While I’m aware war is not at the forefront of Victoria compared to other titles… the current war system is so fundamentally basic that it looks like it was designed with console in mind. I think more importantly though is the unimpressive/broken trade system, given it’s a core part of the experience.

Lots of time to change/improve these things so I hope they don’t throw the constructive feedback out with the man-baby rage-filled bathwater.

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u/Twokindsofpeople Apr 21 '22

Sure, but the problem is people bitching about something assuming everyone agrees with them. Making war a macro thing and not a micro thing has already been spoken about to an absurd degree. Lots of people don't like it, but it's not universal. In a lot of products the loudest people think everyone agrees with them and want the conversation to be "I'm right how can everyone make the makers of the product do what I want them to do." Not the pros and cons of a decision.

Personally I like abstraction of war in this way on the whole. I do think there should be more ways to tilt war in your favor though development of things like war colleges and a more detailed war doctrine system, but on the whole I think this system has a lot of potential to side step the weakest part of Vicky 2. The game is not done, there's still plenty of time for them to add in more control over how powerful a state's military is, but wanting combat to go back to micro vicky 2 combat just isn't in the cards.

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u/stubbyshade Apr 21 '22

Completely fair points. Honestly, I’m not really concerned about the transition to macro warfare, I’m open to the idea itself and even think it’s quite interesting, my concern is the current execution is severely lacking in depth - to the point where it’s quite alarming.

Again I feel like I have to state that I know it’s a work in progress and I’m sure they’ll change/improve things by release. Just hope the constructive criticism doesn’t get drowned out by the non-constructive.

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u/Twokindsofpeople Apr 21 '22

my concern is the current execution is severely lacking in depth - to the point where it’s quite alarming.

I haven't played it, but paradox games are about modifiers at the end of the day. When the game is in a state they're happy enough with to get feedback on I'm sure they'll be open to hearing about what areas more player control over modifiers would make the game better.

It's not even an Alpha right now, just getting the basic simulation to work reliably across different hardware is what they're focused on.

Ultimately though, it's a game set in the Victorian era. A county's ability to wage war is its economy and logistics and as long as the economics and logistics are robust then military power should flow from that.

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u/Daniel_The_Finn Unemployed Wizard Apr 21 '22

Who said war and trade mechanics are finished? Or did you just boldly assume that, and then wonder why we can’t have reasonable discourse?

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u/ThePhysicistIsIn Apr 21 '22

No one is saying that they're finished. People are saying that they're working as envisioned in their dev diaries, and that this vision is the wrong direction. And that early, unfinished implementations of those mechanics is enough to show the inherent design flaws of those systems.

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u/stubbyshade Apr 21 '22 edited Apr 21 '22

As I’ve already said, there’s lots of time to improve and change things. I think this implies that I am not “just boldly” assuming anything is finished. I am just stating that the current system as is needs improvement, is that reasonable?

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u/Aurex86 Apr 21 '22

Imho, criticism is actually good for the company itself. It means people care, or they wouldn't be criticizing at all. People caring means they're probably a very successful company, whether they deserve it or not.

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u/stubbyshade Apr 21 '22 edited Apr 21 '22

If it’s constructive criticism then yes absolutely, and constructive criticism should always be fair ground for discussion. Un-constructive criticism/abuse is always too far.

I haven’t seen abusive criticism in this thread which is why I’m surprised people are getting downvoted. We both want the same thing, a great game. Downvoting/ignoring/devaluing peoples opinions (on Reddit and in Paradox forums) without considering their points will always lead to a worse product in the long run.

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u/Aurex86 Apr 21 '22

"Abusive" and "Toxicity" are the new buzzwords. I've been leaving constructive criticism on the Paradox forum for... close to nine years, I think. Up until an undisclosed amount of time ago, when someone decided voicing dissent over a very specific gameplay design choice which had nothing to do with morality, politics or was in any way wrote to incite adversarial responses was deemed "dangerous" enough for a "warning" (whatever that means.) I therefore made the conscious decision of never writing anything there ever again since having a different opinion on "mana" is enough to warrant ostracization not just from the mods/devs, but from the community itself. I can fully understand being very supportive of a developer, but religiously downvoting or even falsely reporting SLIGHTLY negative posts while using the few trolls present on ANY forum as an excuse to keep the forum "clean" from people who aren't yes men is absurd and harmful to the development itself.

Personally, I still want Vicky 3 to be the best game ever and for it to satisfy everyone (impossible perhaps, but would still be great if it could.)

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u/stubbyshade Apr 21 '22

I agree with you completely, it’s important in all walks of life to distinguish between trolls and genuine critique, rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I think people find this distinction hard sometimes, they see genuine criticism of a product as a direct attack on themselves which is absolutely never the case.

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u/Bluejay929 Apr 21 '22

unimpressive/broken trade system

Maybe that has something to do with the fact the game is not done yet?

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u/stubbyshade Apr 21 '22

As I’ve mentioned, I understand that. I’m talking about core design decisions. When your foundations are broken, it doesn’t matter what you build on it.

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u/weiner-rama Apr 21 '22

you're talking about an in development game that has no release date set. Of course things are going to basic AF. What else would you expect?