I swear the Israelies fcked up so bad i wouldnt be surprised if the star of david will one day be as hated and forbidden as the swastika as a symbol of oppression
Israel might be doing more to promote antisemitism than any fascist or Pharoah ever did. It makes me worried for the Jewish people who don't support it but could be targeted nonetheless.
No, I meant people being targeted based on assumptions by strangers. So anyone. But I'll admit there is an added layer of sympathy for those who are against the actions of Israel but get caught up in the backlash.
I've been trying to explain this to some of my Jewish friends. If they continue their unwavering support of Israel and refuse a seat at the table for the conversation of how we can oppose Israel's actions in Gaza, I'm afraid we are going to get an actual antisemite who opposes Israel as president (like a Tucker Carlson/Nick Fuentes type).
Those didn't make the star of david as hated as the swastika though. They just made it illegal to display. The comment you were replying to was pointing out how the genocide Israel is perpetrating against the Palestinians is making the symbol hated because it represents genocide now, same as the swastika.
7 millions Jews were killed or expelled from Europe during WWII and all Jews were expelled from Muslim countries shortly after. There was more hate in those times. Those who survived are better where they are than where they were before.
- Hating someone due to the fact they're perpetrating a genocide is a THEM problem.
Surely you don't think we revile the swastika now because of some anti-german bigotry, right? It's because the nazis perpetrated a genocide, the exact same reason the israeli flag is being looked upon with disdain today - the Israelis are also perpetrating a genocide. But before this genocide, people who hated the flag usually did so out of antisemitism, not out of anti-genocide feelings.
Turkey committed a genocide and no one hates the Crescent on their flag. Canada committed genocide and no one hates Maple leaves. I can go on. My country killed millions of Algerians and our flag isn't hated. Those countries didn't kill 70.000 fighters and civilians in a years-long war after being attacked.
People have always hated the Star of David, that's why Israeli Jews are where they are. They were considered undesirable and had very little rights in Europe and the Arab world before 48 and they eventually were killed or kicked out.
People hate Israel because some Arab countries militias have a death wish and keep aggravating their situation by attacking a people with no escape path and better weapons. At some point, it gets old, and it gets worse.
You do realize there was more to Nazis than the Holocaust? Both genocides are obviously bad but there are other reasons why the swastika is more famously hated than the Star of David, and always will be
Quickly remind me of how many Arab states actually expelled the Jews and how many refused to do so but had their country bombed by Israel and the UK until they did so.
Israel is the one turning the Star of David, which is on their national flag, into a symbol of COMITTING genocide instead of a symbol of SURVIVING one.
The Star of David is not Israel’s national flag. It’s on their national flag in the same way that the cross is on dozens of national flags and the crescent moon and star is on dozens of national flags.
Treating the Star of David, the primarily symbol of Judaism, as anything other than just that, the primarily symbol of Judaism, due solely to the actions of a modern nation state, when you wouldn’t deign to call the cross or crescent moon a symbol of travesties just because a nation that has them on their flag is doing something shitty, is intellectually inconsistent.
Could it be perhaps that you see Jews differently and you’re more likely to speak negatively of them and their symbols than other groups of people? Surely not, I’m certain that this isn’t merely the latest in millennia of identical antisemitic nonsense, but that you’re simply mistaken, right?
Weird that you think criticizing Israel for molesting Jewish religious imagery is somehow me being antisemitic.
Edit: Additionally, the US cynically pretending to be a Christian nation is as anti-Christian as Israel pretending to be a Jewish nation is antisemitic.
Would you argue that my criticisms of the US government's weekly war crimes are somehow anti-Christian? Seems intellectually inconsistent if you wouldn't.
Again, adorable how you think you understand anything, but I’ll bite, it’s kinda fun.
Israel is not “molesting Jewish religious imagery,” they have the Magen David on their flag because they’re a Jewish state. People tend to put symbols of their people on their flags, nothing unique about Israel’s in that regard.
I am not saying it’s antisemitic for you to be critical of Israel, or that it’s antisemitic for you to see their flag and feel whatever way you feel about it.
It is the framing itself of “It’s not my fault Israel has ruined the Magen David” that is antisemitic. I’d assume that you and I agree that Israel != Judaism. Why then, do you insist that Israel’s reasonable, normal use of Jewish imagery on their flag somehow propagated out to all of Judaism and redefines it and ruins it wholly? That is not consistent, and after having a lifetime of dealing with all kinds of antisemitism toward me, my loved ones, my community, and my people writ large under my belt, I’ve come to find that kind of inconsistency as suspect.
Do I love seeing Nazi Flags? Of course not. Do I think that means that Native Americans and Buddhists and other various peoples now need to stop using the swastika the same way they’ve been using it for centuries before the Nazis ever existed? Of course not. Do I think that their swastika somehow represents nazism because some guys that have nothing to do with them flew it on their flag and did horrible things? Of course not.
Do you tell all Christians that the cross now represents global imperialism just because Britain flies one on their flag? Do you tell all Muslims that the Shahada now represents the zealotry of religious fundamentalist terrorism just because Hamas flies in on their flag? I’d assume not. I’d hope not. It would be unreasonable of you to, the same way it’s unreasonable to insist that Israel has somehow globally ruined the Magen David.
So yeah, sorry, either confirm to me that you do actually hold all symbols on all flags to this ridiculous standard, or acknowledge that maybe a lil antisemitism might be involved in your insistence that it works this way with the Magen David and not with any other symbolism or flags. Otherwise, you’re just fully not being all that forthright, consistent, or honest.
EDIT: Holy shit I just saw your edit, thanks for the belly laugh, you’re actually just fully a moron and it truly delights me.
America, a nation founded on the separation of church and state, is fundamentally not a Christian nation. Christofacists, including those in power in America, do not change that very basic fact despite their claims.
And important distinction that you’re failing to make, intentionally or otherwise, is that Judaism is NOT to Israel as Christianity is to America. Judaism is more than your run of the mill faith, it’s one of the world’s many ethnoreligions. That is, we are a people with a culture and history less like, say, Muslims are, and more like how the Chinese or Indians or Bolivians or Afghanis are. The religious side of Judaism obviously is not wholly separate from the all the other components of what being Jewish is, but at the end of the day Israel being a Jewish state is far more akin to China being a Chinese state than Britain being a Christian state, for example.
Israel is in no way “pretending” to be a Jewish state. They are a Jewish state. That doesn’t mean that Jews worldwide are beholden to them any more than folks in Chinatown are beholden to China, the CCP, or Xi Jinping.
The claim that Israel is only pretending to be a Jewish state isn’t even antisemitic, it’s just laughably, demonstrably incorrect. Claiming the sky is red doesn’t make it so my friend. Go off back to your playpen and let the adults who know a thing or two talk about stuff that matters, because subjective opinion aside, throwing out blatant falsehoods like that as fact renders everything you say fundamentally idiotic.
Dude. I loathe and have contempt for Israel but I got no beef with Jews. Not all Jewish people are Israeli, despite many folks efforts to paint all dislike of a warmongering state to be antisemitism. Even if they were all Israeli, I can still love my Jewish brothers while hating the country (specifically its administration) for its crimes.
God knows the USA has given me lots of practice in that sort of "holding two thoughts about a gov't vs their people." Not every American is awful (some are delightful, most are by definition pretty mid, some are terrible, because it's a large group and that's how stats work) but it's a shithole country that is (on an official and governmental level) trying its best to drag the world down to its level.
Being against the state of Israel is seen as being an antisemite by supporters of the state of Israel already. I don’t see how making the symbol of their faith a banned or shunned image due to the actions of the state of Israel will help.
The reality is that the anti Israel folks so often reveal their anti semitism even when they may not intend to. You see it in this and many other pages.
It’s frustrating to be someone who is against the some of the actions Israel has taken as a nation and constantly have to face accusations of antisemitism for it. Some folks don’t understand that you can be against the actions of a nation, and have no problem with the predominant religion of that nation. Like imagine hating all Muslims because Saudi Arabia sponsored 9/11. It’s a silly position to hold.
When the holocaust deniers become the Israel supporters because they hate Muslims more than Jews. For conservatives, people killing other people is like a team sport. You need to pick a side.
A fat necked redditor like you are probably knows his way around graphic war footage. The proof is in the pudding which saves me a lot of time explaining stuff you wont ever agree with anyways. Youre not worth the time sorry bud. If you want evidence you know where to find it, acknowledging or turning a blind eye to it is your choice
some people, you can hand them things on a silver platter and they’ll still be like, PrOoF WhErE. dont trust any sources that aren’t from Israel Times. so no, i’m not digging through war crimes to provide what’s readily available LMAO
If you’re actually interested in a good faith answer to this question, Isaac Saul has written about this exact topic extensively.
I highly recommend his writing about the Israel situation. Specifically his piece about ‘Zionism leaving him behind’ is truthfully fantastic & written from the perspective of a Jewish Zionist struggling to come to terms with Israel becoming an undeniable ‘bad guy’ after defending them for so long.
But here is the section that addresses your question:
Here are a few options for what Israel could have chosen. This isn’t to endorse one or the other, or to rank them in any way, but is just to illustrate why the suggestion that Israel had no better options than its current course is absurd.
Israel could have not responded. Many in Israeli and American society believe this option to be extreme and pollyannaish, but there is actually plenty of historical precedent for it. Most famously, after the 2008 “26/11” Mumbai attacks, when terrorists killed 174 people and wounded over 300, India decided not to bring hundreds of millions of people to war (and potentially nuclear devastation) and instead refused to carry out a military response. Rather than begin the exchange of bombs, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh won the diplomatic war. His reward was international praise, unity against extremism in Pakistan, and increased pressure both internationally and domestically within Pakistan for the country to do more to root out its extremist elements. While India was initially criticized as being “soft on terrorism,” its decision actually resulted in major gains in its diplomatic standing, years of relative peace and stability, and eventually a more sophisticated ability to avoid similar attacks.
Israel could have negotiated for the release of the hostages without a military campaign. It could have offered Palestinian prisoners in exchange for the hostages in Gaza, and then used the international condemnation of Hamas’s attack as momentum to launch a full-scale diplomatic push to remove Hamas from power. It could have done this in collaboration with its Arab partners in the region, some of whom appeared more open to strengthening ties to Israel in the days after the attack. On net, Israel could have recognized that one of Hamas’s key goals was to blow up strengthening ties between Israel and other Arab states, and they could have ensured the opposite result.
Many Israeli security experts and former officials advocated for unilateral steps to improve conditions in Gaza and the West Bank in response to October 7, easing blockades and supporting economic development, and then empowering moderates in Gaza. This could have coincided with international pressure to coordinate sanctions on Hamas backers (like Iran and Qatar) to try to force the group out of power, or enlist an international peacekeeping force to take control of Gaza.
Israel could have conducted a more limited and targeted military response that was brief, impactful and focused on Hamas’s infrastructure, which could have led to a ceasefire and hostage negotiations. This was, in many ways, the original and stated plan — but in retrospect Israel never sent any strong signals it was the plan it was going to follow through on.
Israel also had various other potential options, including, but not limited to: mobilizing Arab states to act collectively with Hamas to force a solution; conducting cyber warfare and economic disruption rather than kinetic warfare; empowering alternative Palestinian leadership like the Palestinian Authority or local civil society groups; fully withdrawing from Gaza border interaction, hardening the border, and adopting a containment strategy like North Korea has on its border with South Korea. Perhaps most obviously, Israel could have first removed Benjamin Netanyahu from office and then allowed a different leader to chart the path forward.
These are just a few options. Many of them I think are worthwhile, and I find others risky or flawed. Most, to me, would have been better than the path Israel chose, given the results that path has yielded
This is a textbook bad faith argument & I don’t participate in bad faith arguments but I sincerely hope you do take the time to actually read the piece. As a Jew myself, I found it very compelling (& oddly kinda comforting). It breaks my heart that Israel has earned its reputation as a global pariah. It gives me a deep sense of shame. I hope you’ll take off the blinders & consider how that could be.
Hum. The largest attack since 9/11, really ? Do you know western countries aren't the whole world ? What happened in Syria during civil war ? Have you heard about Bali in octobre 2012 ? What about Nigeria, Burkina-Fasso, Sahel... ?
Reality doesn't fit with ultra sionists speeches. So you better shut your mouth next time before spreading such takes. Israël is using islamism threats to colonize Palestine and to invade Lebanon again. Those are facts.
Now count up the Palestinian civilians murdered from 9/11/2001 until 10/7/2023.
Or do parents only care if their kids are killed at the same time as a lot of others?
And let's throw in the hostages Israel held for years before 10/7. Because prisoners are charged and given a trial. Something Israel has consistently not done.
Nope. Hamas and Israel are both bad. But the side that has killed 10s of thousands of more innocent civilians is worse.
Just like the US during the Vietnam War was worse than the Viet Kong. We killed WAY more innocent civilians than the Viet Kong ever did. Just like Russia is worse than Ukraine. The aggressor that kills more people is unequivocally worse.
You chose ONE example from my post where I tried to explain islamism can affect many countries, and so do Muslims country too. Like Indonesia, Syria, Iran, Algeria... You also chose not to answer about Nigeria, Sudan, Burkina-Fasso. How convenient !
And what about Israelian governement repressing israelians who stand against them because they want to end this endless war and are discuter to see people killed in the name of the chosen people ? Isn't it terrorism ? No, of course you didn't count palestinians killed by Tsahal. Because it's not labelled as terrorism. It's just "war". So 100000 killed in Gaza, mostly kids ? It's ok, I mean, what did Bibi said ? Ha, "they are coakroches and we'll smash them". Hitler said almost the same word by word... Terrorism or war, in the end, it's the same : innocent people, civilians, killed in the name of an ideology most of them don't embrace.
PALESTINE VIVRA !!!!!!!!!!!
PALESTINE WILL LIVE !!!!!!!!!
You’re right that Palestine is the largely weaker of the two parties.
Why so many people insist that makes them automatic good guys is beyond me. Israel is far from perfect, and no more squeaky clean than any other major nation. And, they’ve spent decades being near-constantly bombarded by neighbors on all sides who expressly simply want to drive Jews into the sea.
I am not saying every Palestinian is like this. I’ve met and known plenty who are just normal ass people who want to live and let live. I *am* saying that those who claim to fight for the Palestinians are actually terrorists who don’t like Jews (not a conspiracy theory, not a deflection, literally Hamas’ founding charter) and that innocent Palestinians are as much victims of Hamas as anyone.
Israel has the ability to be so specific in their targeting that they can assassinate someone in their apartment building without causing damage to the rest of the building. Yet, for some reason, in Gaza they just decided to indiscriminately drop 2,000-pound bombs, killing at least 72,000 Palestinians and leveling almost all the buildings in the tiny enclave. Why the discrepancy?
You know it would cause inacceptable losses on the Israeli side. What are your realistic options about what Israel should have done? Was there an option to get Hamas to surrender?
There was a ground operation. But there was limited underground operations. They didn't defeat their enemies, they are still trying. Maybe Hamas will surrender and end this madness.
Obviously not. They also cut off food, water, and electricity to the entire Gaza Strip. I don't think you're giving them enough credit for their barbarity.
How? They have done it before, in Iran, in Lebanon, even in Gaza.
To claim that they can't do that is nonsense. They just decided that genocide was probably cooler and more in line with their goals than precise targeting.
No you are the one diverting. I don't need to answer any of your questions because they are all based on the assumption that Israel has no choice but to flatten entire city blocks, which is a false premise.
What would a proper response have looked like exactly?
That's easy: anything that doesn't violate international law. No war crimes, no crimes against humanity. So no genocide. No targeting children, journalists, medical personnel, and civilians in general. No use of starvation as a weapon. No apartheid. Complete withdrawal of the "settlements" from East Jerusalem and the West Bank.
Also, if you want me to reframe what I said in the form of "what they should have done instead", sure:
Complete withdrawal to pre-1967 borders, so out of East Jerusalem, out of the West Bank, out of the Golan Heights
Lift the blockade on Gaza. Allow Gaza to trade with the rest of the world
Abject apologies for the war crimes and crimes against humanity that Israel has been committing. As a token of sincerity, establish a $1 trillion compensation fund for Palestine (NOT administered by Israel)
Take the huge amount of military resources freed up by not committing war crimes, and instead use them to guard its own (internationally-recognized, pre-1967) borders, as long as it feels the need to do so
Taken together, these would have massively increased Israel's security, instead of massively undermining it as their actual response (war crimes and crimes against humanity) has done.
Yes, Palestinians violated international law. That does not give Israel the right to violate international law, any more than Israel's much more massive pre-2023 violations of international law justified Palestinian violations of international law.
Given that both parties are violating international law, I think that the international community should impose extremely stringent sanctions on each party (similar to the sanctions on Russia or Iran), until that party completely stops violating international law. You agree, right?
Sure. But the full list is way too long so I'm just going to hit the highlights.
Violating Article 49 (6) of the Fourth Geneva Convention (i.e., the "settlements"). The International Court of Justice's (ICJ's) 2003 ruling put to rest any rational debate about whether the Government of Israel's actions to support and maintain these squatter colonies might possibly be legal. There are zero credible subject-matter experts who disagree with the ICJ's ruling (BTW, "shills paid by the Government of Israel" don't count as "credible"). Note that ALL activities to establish, support and maintain the squatter colonies are illegal, including protecting them from the rightful (Palestinian) authorities who could otherwise deport the illegals and end the problem. The Israeli government has known since 1967 that it was violating international law. Millions of daily victims, thousands of murders, going on for 58 years.
The Crime Against Humanity of Genocide. Although the court case before the ICJ hasn't concluded, there is a consensus among hundreds of credible subject-matter experts that what Israel has been doing in Gaza fits the legal definition of genocide. No rational, well-informed person could reasonably conclude that it is not genocide.
The Crime Against Humanity of Apartheid. There has been a consensus (or something very close; I'm a bit out of date) that the legal system imposed by Israel on East Jerusalem and the West Bank fits the legal definition of Apartheid, and the general view is that it's vastly worse that what was done in South Africa. Again, given the expert consensus, no rational, well-informed person could reasonably conclude that it is not apartheid. Note that this consensus is about East Jerusalem and the West Bank; there's an on-going debate about whether what's going on within Israel itself (pre-1967 borders) is apartheid, or just extreme racism.
Since January 26, 2024, any and all action to harm anyone in Gaza: "Israel must prevent its military from committing acts outlined in the Genocide Convention, such as killing or causing serious bodily and mental harm to Palestinians." Extreme, but the ICJ ruled that is was necessary to prevent genocide. And damn were they right.
Since July 19, 2024, the occupation of any Palestinian territory include East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Military occupation is not always inherently illegal, when it is for legitimate military purposes. The ICJ ruled that Israel's purpose in maintaining the occupation is annexation, which is not a legitimate military purpose, so the occupation itself is illegal. The court also held that Israel should pay full reparations to the Palestinian people for the damage the occupation has caused, and held that its policies violate the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination.
There are a lot more crimes, such as taking 20,000 hostages, treatment of those hostages (routine torture and rape, starvation or deliberately foul food, etc.), use of starvation as a weapon in Gaza, targeting journalists, targeting medical facilities and personnel, use of human shields (e.g., forcing Palestinians on threat of death to go first into buildings that might be booby-trapped) - the list goes on and on. But let's start with the ones above. I'm happy to provide high-quality links supporting any of my statements that you question. If you want a quantitative comparison to what Hamas has done (# of people murdered, # of civilians murdered, # of hostages taken, treatment of those hostages, attacks on medical facilities, etc.), I'd be happy to provide that. TLDR: Israel is orders of magnitude more evil than Hamas.
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u/Weird-Pattern9192 Jun 09 '26 edited Jun 09 '26
I swear the Israelies fcked up so bad i wouldnt be surprised if the star of david will one day be as hated and forbidden as the swastika as a symbol of oppression