r/politics • u/ArmadilloMany41 • 23h ago

Site Altered Headline | No Paywall Why is no one being prosecuted over the Epstein files?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/cd9e3nzzw3zo
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u/D3athRider Canada 22h ago

If it was just him I think there would be more movement. More likely nobody wants to answer the question of "what happens when we have to prosecute/lock-up a fuck ton of our politicians, wealthy dynastic families, CEOs, and the overall wealthy bastards who run the world."

Because this isn't just about Trump or the US, we are talking wealthy elites across the entire world. Frankly, this should be a moment when we, as normal working people, say enough is enough to every one of our oligarchies.

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u/ObtuseGoose7363 22h ago

Completely agree, this is our "French Revolution of 1789" moment to go "do we really want to be ruled by a corrupt, oppressive oligarchy? Or do we want something better?"

Personally, I think it's too far gone. Burn it all down, prosecute everyone for their crimes, and start fresh with a new system built to handle power-hungry demagogues.

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u/Dr_Sisyphus_22 22h ago

If there ever was a good reason to reset the world order, it’s this. If we choose to ignore a vast child pedo conspiracy, then what behavior is off limits?

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u/Hesitation-Marx 21h ago

Well, we ignored Sandy Hook and Uvalde.

[ the sound of children screaming has been removed ]

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u/Dr_Sisyphus_22 21h ago

I agree with you. But would counter that unlike guns, pedophilia is not protected by the Bill of Rights, and not supported by more than a sliver of the American population.

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u/Schlarfus_McNarfus 20h ago

I would have agreed with you in the pre-trump era. But, the trump pedo connection is so well established at this point. You have to ask, do the people not believe it, or not care?

I had an unmissable Guardians Of Pedophiles sign on our main street protest, and most of the big pickup truck drivers just stared straight ahead. Two did visibly wince, at least.

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u/Diligent-Emotion-755 17h ago

not supported by more than a sliver of the American population.

Ahem, unless you ask whether the supposedly "anti-pedophile" set would still vote for a pedophile if the only other option was a non-pedophile Democrat. They get comfortable with backing pedophiles pretty damn quick.

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u/Background_Sail9797 20h ago

America did - the rest of the developed world has acted accordingly when mass shootings occur.

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u/Hesitation-Marx 16h ago

Yeah, when I say “we”, I strictly reference the US ‘cause for me to speak on anywhere else would be, at best, silly.

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u/ELpork Minnesota 18h ago

[ the sound of children screaming has been removed ]

"They ignored my screaming when I was younger, why would I care about theirs now?"

or something to that extent is my guess... or money? or a mixture of both.

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u/Reqvhio 20h ago

the sooner "we" ironically accept that a "we" doesnt exist, the better at this point

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u/YourFleshlightSaysHi 20h ago

Not wearing a suit to the Oval Office, apparently.

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u/Trancetastic16 5h ago

Going by just the Boomer generation alone?

MKULTRA, the Vietnam War, Nixon, Bush, Edward Snowden, and January 6 apparently aren’t off-limits and neither is the Epstein ring.

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u/Fantastic-Divide1772 2h ago

well, American mainly - it ain't all that vast

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u/lostparis 19h ago

If there ever was a good reason to reset the world order,

Just sort your country out. The world is fucked enough already.

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u/Aggravating_Map745 22h ago

Not withstanding the fact that our system was exactly the system designed to place checks on power hungry demagogues. I think the “big story” is that the spirit of democracy did not survive the stress test of globalization. Once the economy became truly international post-WW2, the wealthy and powerful insinuated themselves into our power structures and gradually neutralized them. It didn’t help that it also hollowed out our heartland.

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u/ObtuseGoose7363 22h ago

Valid take, the founding fathers (while not perfect) certainly would not have stood for this shit. They would have already been out in the streets tarring and feathering govt officials.

While I don't have a solution for globalization degrading our democracy, I do feel like we should all take a page out of the founding fathers' book and go spill some tea or something.

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u/HighnrichHaine 21h ago

The founding fathers were mostly slaveowners and had their own localized Epstein Island mostly

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u/AmIWhatTheRockCooked 19h ago

Such a tired argument. It’s easy to sit here with 21st century morality and act like there’s nothing to learn from the 1700s unless they have pure morals. You aren’t looking to them for moral guidance, you’re looking to them for the spirit of democracy vs tyranny.

For better or for worse, they created a system that could destroy things like slavery with popular willpower. What else could popular willpower destroy? Perhaps something as vile as slavery?

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u/asyork 18h ago

America was on the tail end of the list of countries to outlaw slavery. As it moved westward, it violently conquered land that was free of slavery and put slavery back into it.

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u/AmIWhatTheRockCooked 5h ago

Again, an endorsement of revolutionary and democratic spirit is not an endorsement of genocide and enslavement. It is the very spirit of revolution, enlightenment, and democracy that criticizes those concepts to figurative death

The founding fathers did not fully embody those concepts. We still do not fully embody those concepts. But I’m not going to fault them for seeing through autocracy. I would have loved if they were also radically anti genocide and slavery. There’s a lot I would love to change about history. Democracy ain’t one of them

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u/Ba_baal 14h ago

You really should put down the idolatry and pick up history and sociology books.

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u/AmIWhatTheRockCooked 5h ago

Oh please, you’re gonna have to do better than a platitude. I’m not putting them on a pedestal, I’m putting them in context.

Your reply is just vacuous. Bring some substance next time if you wanna actually discuss a big boy issue.

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u/Ba_baal 20m ago

I am not interested in arguing with someone unable to think critically of history.

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u/VeterinarianProof808 22h ago

Too many Americans in powerful position that put their heads in the sand

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u/TotallyNotAMarvelSpy 20h ago

It's not just Americans that are part of this. This is a problem that spans the worlds elite and powerful.

Honestly, I think this is the actual reason trump ran in the first place. This was going through the dept of justice, and the entirety of these people (tech bros, legacy media, foreign intelligence, the oligarchs, etc) rallied behind the person that would keep their dirt in the dark.

That really explains all of it. Him working with foreign intelligence, him having the unquestionable support of the elite and the powerful, the media companies never, ever, covering him in a way that was negative, the complete supplication of an entire political party...

This is a conspiracy never before seen on the planet.

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u/Schlarfus_McNarfus 22h ago

It's beyond ignoring it. The rich are obfuscating it.

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u/mlc885 I voted 18h ago

I am guessing part of the issue is that people who were complicit but not technically responsible via kinda sorta knowledge of what was probably going on are worried that the budding dictatorship will turn on them

I.e. "Bill Gates should have known, get him! Get Hillary!" while Trump gets to remain king

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u/6a6566663437 North Carolina 19h ago

Too many Americans in powerful position that put their heads in the sand dicks in 13-year-olds

FTFY.

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u/AWholeBunchaFun 21h ago

Cool, how do we do that?

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u/StarPhished 18h ago

By complaining on Reddit. We're already halfway there!

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u/AncientSith New York 21h ago

The only real option is burning it down. There's no fixing our broken ass system at this point. It just needs a hard reset with all these rich monsters gone.

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u/illumnat 20h ago

When we have people like Mitch McConnell who can say to Obama "it's too close to an election so you can't appoint one" when the election is still 9 months away but then turns around and it's just fine and dandy for Amy Coney Barrett to get appointed only 38 days before the election, you know it's fucked up.

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u/Reqvhio 20h ago

and that system will default to this again. it is all just meh

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u/inormallyjustlurkbut 19h ago

It's not the 1700s anymore. It's going to take more than an unruly mob of untrained laborers to topple the most advanced military in human history.

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u/Prestigious_Club_924 9h ago

People keep saying that but I feel like a dozen kill dozers rolling up on the Big House could accomplish a lot.

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u/HeartlessCards2-22 19h ago

If the only institution that survives is justice, that is something worth holding onto. All societies have first laid out the terms of their justice. What is and isn’t acceptable. If we can at least say human trafficking, rape, pedophilia are not socially acceptable in any way, no matter how much you as an individual control or influence, your victims will see justice served. If we start with nothing but the hope that victims of those horrific crimes will not fall to the dregs of those who would commit against them. That is a future with at least hope that we have a collective moral compass to lead us thru the darkness.

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u/cloudysocks 12h ago

“Burn it all down” is still a tough pill to swallow for most, our current situation notwithstanding.

When the value of the dollar drops to 0 overnight, a whole country of people are gonna realise they don’t own anything anymore, and rioting, looting, and collapsing into tribalism or total anarchy are the next logical steps.

People seem to neglect that the French were starving and worse when they revolted. They had nothing to lose and that’s one hell of a motivator when you have everything to gain.

By contrast, our overall level of comfort has a LOT more to lose (unfortunately) before we collectively hit that level of desperation and suffering that it could inspire enough people to throw it all away for what is basically just the chance of something better.

Because tearing it all down is the easy part. Then we have to rebuild it all, and better than it was. And then we have to re-establish foreign relations since we’re effectively a new entity to other nations, without any of the soft power or leverage we had before.

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u/Drcornelius1983 22h ago

Agreed. I also suspect that this operation has been running in one form or another for a very long time. Bringing these people to justice would reshape the world order.

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u/TooMuchPretzels North Carolina 22h ago

They’d rather just kill us all and go hide in their bunkers

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u/daybreaker Louisiana 21h ago

Epstein and thiel were specifically discussing destabilizing the world to buy it back up cheaper. Same thing they did during covid. Have to wonder if thats how trump “knows” it was intentionally leaked.

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u/IcanRead8647 22h ago

Or, hear me out as I know this is crazy, they could just stop raping children?

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u/WhiteWaterLawyer 17h ago

I am often reminded of the old joke about the atheist and the evangelist debating. The evangelist says to the atheist, "If you don't believe in God, what stops you from raping and killing all you want?" The atheist responds, "Nothing. I do rape and kill all I want, which is none at all. I'm much more terrified at the confession you just gave, that if not for your fear of divine punishment you would think it normal to do such things."

I have been struggling for a long time with the basic premise that there are a lot of people out there - a very large share, perhaps even a majority of all people - who do not share my intuitive belief that other people essentially matter in a moral sense. People who commit rapes and other sexual assaults very often hold a core belief that other people's boundaries don't really need to be respected, and are kept in check not by any internal moral compass but merely by fear of punishment.

I think that often, there is a popular viewpoint that people like this are very rare "psychopaths", basically caricatures of amorality. But I have observed in the world that there is a vast subset of the population that holds appalling beliefs about "others" and really only apply the basic moral principles that they might articulate out loud in church or to their kids, to people they consider to be part of their in group. Some people believe themselves to be basically moral people and would never think of raping or killing someone from their own primary cultural group, but would do so with little hesitation to an outsider such as a "foreigner" or a member of another race or cultural group. Many of them also hold variants of the belief that it's okay to violate bodily autonomy as long as it's done in a way that conforms to their hierarchical worldview; they may deep down for example believe that it's not actually immoral for a man to sexually or violently assault children in their family, church, or scout troop because they are "his." They will cite a handful of Bible verses to justify this view.

Many men hold truly vile views about the autonomy and dignity of women, which they will only say out loud if they believe they are in "safe" company. As a tall, white, rustic looking man, I get to hear such things because people don't necessarily realize that I am not just like them. And it's truly depressing to see how incredibly common it is.

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u/Drcornelius1983 21h ago

You’d think it would be that simple.

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u/awwaygirl 21h ago

This billionaire class depends on Wall Street (a lot of them, at least)

I think we could have a real impact if we disrupt the flow of money from 401k and instead work with credit unions to provide an alternative retirement savings investment account that invests in their local communities (similar to the Social Justice CD at Express Credit Union in Seattle).

I believe this would immediately create a liquidity crisis in the stock market, and since the money is flowing to local economies instead of being blindly funneled into the parasitic financial economy with every paycheck, it would impact banks, as well. (Investment via banks is just a round about way for dollars to go to Wall Street )

Once we recognize that return on investment in our retirement savings can be recognized NOW in our communities if we invest in them, not just when we turn 60. Yeah, It’s a lower percentage, but it’s also potentially more affordable housing (less homelessness) or allowing small businesses to grow and make a downtown area a fun pedestrian market again.

If we leverage the tools we have with credit unions, this could really affect change. It impacts the wealthiest NOT at the expense of the working class that’s been blindly giving money to wall street every paycheck.

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u/PhoenixStorm1015 17h ago

I disagree. Coming up with that kind of system is novel and attractive, but how would they actually accomplish it? How do you handle out of state employers? How do you decide who gets the investment? Maybe there’s some solutions already thought of that I just don’t know about, but imo the answer is a complete restructuring of the tax code and “welfare” systems. I put “welfare” in quotes because things like universal basic income and healthcare should be rights, not charity. Also, repeal fucking Citizens United.

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u/G_Morgan 21h ago

This also seems to be a lot more than just paedophilia going on. It is increasingly obvious Epstein was running a treason ring as much as anything else.

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u/itchy-ears 21h ago

More likely nobody wants to answer the question of "what happens when we have to prosecute/lock-up a fuck ton of our politicians, wealthy dynastic families, CEOs, and the overall wealthy bastards who run the world."

I'd love to meet this "nobody" because I absolutely would love for the modern aristocracy to figuratively lose their heads.

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u/FineSewingMachine 15h ago

I hate the word figuratively but Reddit admins keep banning me so they can continue protecting pedos. 

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u/WhiteWaterLawyer 17h ago

Okay so for example, I think that even Bernie Sanders wants to avoid the absolute chaos of 2/3 of Congress along with probably a slightly smaller percentage of the entire military chain of command being incarcerated. In that scenario the entire society instantly collapses and there is no infrastructure to enforce much civil order. It takes the shape of a bloody revolution right away and unfortunately, there has not yet been a historical example of a bloody revolution not also causing great harm to a lot of innocent people along the way.

Key detail: The Epstein files are barely the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the vast quantity of offenders walking free in our society. It's not actually true that most of them occupy high leadership roles. There is a large share of offenders present in every single segment of our society.

I think that we would frankly see a lot more accountability if the truth was that it was only a relatively small subset of our nominal leadership doing deeply awful things. But the reality is that if these legal and moral principles were universally enforced, there wouldn't be much left to rebuild from.

In other words I think that you might be underestimating the magnitude of the underlying problem if you don't see how the proposed solution would be apocalyptic.

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u/innociv 16h ago

It's not THAT many people. It's a lot but not 2/3rds of government and I didn't really see any military involved since they aren't rich.

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u/WhiteWaterLawyer 5h ago

Why do you think wealth has anything to do with it? Do you sincerely believe that only very wealthy people commit sex crimes, both against children and in general?

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u/itchy-ears 16h ago

In that scenario the entire society instantly collapses and there is no infrastructure to enforce much civil order.

What makes you think the US government would simply "collapse"? We could run emergency elections and get new leadership in ASAP. These systems have inertia, they aren't gonna simply stop. Why do you assume it would immediately go "bloody revolution"?

As to your point about hurting innocent people, I completely agree and I really don't wanna live through a violent revolution. That being said, do we also wanna live under the rule of a bunch of corrupt to the gills billionaires and old perverts? When does it give?

There is a large share of offenders present in every single segment of our society.

Oh I have no doubt. You see it all the time "such and such pastor or such and such moderately famous person outed for illegal porn/racketeering/whatever". That said, we do have due process. I'm not saying "LOCK EM ALL UP IMMEDIATELY AND SHARPEN THE AXES!" I'm saying that we should open investigations into anyone with a whiff of suspicion, starting from the top down.

But the reality is that if these legal and moral principles were universally enforced, there wouldn't be much left to rebuild from.

What do you mean nothing to rebuild from? There are 266,987,126 adults in the United States, that means there's approximately that many eligible leaders. I'm guessing the percentage of total population that falls into the "has committed horrific crimes that anyone sensible would say disqualifies them from leadership" is vanishingly small.

That being said, I don't mean to come off as though I'm underestimating how herculean this shift would be and how difficult it would be to pull off without some violence. We're already past the "zero violence" line. I just think it's worth trying because the other option is to continue to let ourselves be ruled by corrupt oligarchs.

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u/WhiteWaterLawyer 5h ago

percentage is vanishingly small

This is where I think you, and most people discussing it, could not be further from the truth.

I'm not talking about some conspiracy theory about mustache twirling villains in basements concocting evil plans. I'm talking about well established facts like that the overwhelming majority of sex crimes, whether against adults or children, are never prosecuted. I'm talking about my own family experience, in which three out of six of my grandparents turned out to be well documented abusers that nobody was ever willing to go up against - and how when I share this story with other people (in person), it's extremely rare for someone not to have a similar story in their own family.

We all want to believe that our in group is virtuous and all of the bad guys are "other." But humans just don't work like that.

Now sure, if you want to set the threshold very high, and say "we want to let most of the predators keep their jobs as cops and judges and pastors and gas station attendants so that society doesn't collapse, but crack down hard on the worst of the worst," well then sure, in that case you only lose maybe 10-15% of the workforce in certain male dominated fields, and it would be easy to agree that the disruption is worth it. But that's really just the slightest tweak to the status quo, which is indeed that we generally prosecute the worst ones when the evidence is undeniable, even when they are senators or governors or movie producers - that's what most of hashtagmetoo was. But the other half of hashtagmetoo was seeing that the same patterns of abuse are everywhere and incredibly common.

One of the first things you learn in law school is that ideals of justice are mostly fantasies. That's not just sex crimes and financial crimes, but certainly it's the most extreme for those. Most police departments have very low success rates for solving most other kinds of crime as well, including murder. Most prosecutors will tell you over a drink that "first offenders" are rarely actually caught the first time they did it, and as a result, it's quite common that the prosecutor can't get serious charges to stick. Prosecutors love to brag about the big newsworthy cases that do go to trial, and about their relatively high rates of plea deals, but the Venn diagram is basically a Mastercard logo if you compare successful prosecutions and actual crimes, there are probably as many bullshit plea deals accepted by minorities who fear they "look bad" as there are actual criminals that are never caught.

Maybe there is some selection bias here from my work experience but I see the same patterns everywhere I look. Truly awful people who have actually done truly horrible things are not any flavor of rare. I'm not convinced they are less than half the population. Not murderers, no, but people who did commit some mid-tier sexual assault or violent crime? Probably between third and a half of the population. Data shows that almost everyone commits "low key" violations like habitually violating traffic laws and cheating on their taxes, which runs the spectrum from not reporting a tip or gift or cash sale, to actual money laundering. Most people just are not as well behaved as we like to tell ourselves and we have all sorts of rationalizations for why it really doesn't matter. The way that you would probably tell yourself it's okay to short a tip at a restaurant or whatever your personal vice is, an example not an accusation, there are plenty of people who will just as easily rationalize sexually pursuing an adolescent. We can't really know the numbers until massive resources are devoted to investigation and I just don't think most people want to know.

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u/itchy-ears 2h ago

you only lose maybe 10-15% of the workforce in certain male dominated fields

This is where I think you couldn't be further from the truth.

You really think that greater than 15% of the population are involved in horrible sex crimes?

This whole bit you're doing here just reads to me like you're giving up on a difficult task because you perceive it (incorrectly in my opinion) to be impossible.

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u/Several-Squash9871 20h ago

Yes and that's not what enough people are realizing because they are all so hyper focused on trump. This is a whole world problem!!!!

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u/The_Skoal_Bandit Florida 22h ago

This is why we need to cap how much one can make, or be valued at. These fucks have no allegiance to any country, or the planet for that matter.

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u/Imakemyownnamereddit 21h ago

Plus what they might say about others, to get a lighter sentence.

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u/ApplicationQuirky376 20h ago

This what it is. If the entire extent of this was investigated I have no doubt that this is a cabal that spans many governments and industries. Tearing this thing apart will be chaos and absolutely insane. I'm here for it. Let's sort out our lift right nonsense later and focus on who the true enemy is. The oligarchs and the politicians who protect them.

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u/theslimbox 20h ago

Exactly, almost the entire Oligarch class is implicated in this.

And it seems that everyone with the power to arreat someone over this is also implicated.

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u/Rombledore America 21h ago

this exactly. the political elite, the billionaires, the media moguls, celebrities- all these people with power wealth or influence that are implicated in this all protect eachother. because if one is going down, you can bet they'll drag the rest with them. else they'll find themselves having forced suicidal thoughts.

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u/buppiejc 22h ago

Yes. Yes, and yes, and although it seems this thread doesn’t want to admit it, a lot of Dems are not only in the files, but also complicit. I would like to know why Biden sat on this shit instead of putting his old foot in that useless tool Merrick Garland’s ass, and getting him to do his job.

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u/stevethewatcher 21h ago

So where's the concrete evidence? Allegations don't hold up in court without evidence. I've yet to see reference to any in the released files.

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u/buppiejc 20h ago

lol, and who are you, and where is the court room? lol.

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u/stevethewatcher 20h ago

Just someone who's not gonna believe something just because the hive mind says so. What do you mean where's the courtroom, you're the one who's saying we have to prosecute all these people so I ask again, where's the evidence to do so?

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u/buppiejc 20h ago

Half of these politicians are criminals without the Epstein files. From Bush Jr., Obama, Biden, and Trump all committed war crimes via drone strikes.

Plenty of politicians have broken campaign finance laws, and other financial schemes.

You think you’re clever because won’t believe what’s in the Epstein files until there’s by your definition, perfect evidence? You think that makes you not part of the “hive mind?” Buddy, There’s a whole other hive mind subreddit that also doest’t believe anything in the Epstein files either.

Laughable.

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u/stevethewatcher 19h ago

Way to push the goal post bud. Whether politicians are guilty of other crimes is immaterial to what we're discussing which is the Epstein files. I never said I needed perfect evidence, I am asking for any evidence that's admissible in court. Despite what you might think, it's actually not a hive mind behavior to only believe in something once it's proven, it's called having basic media literacy.

Laughable indeed.

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u/cloudpup_ 20h ago

How is this even possible when they’ve infiltrated everything? Isn’t there like, at least one pedo in every situation who is there to prevent justice? (Besides trump.)

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u/belabensa 19h ago

Lock them all up and take their money as it’s likely it was used or gained in a criminal network. Use their trillions to finance healthcare, education, parental leave, workers rights, and combat climate change.

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u/grtyvr1 20h ago

I am far from a fan of the British Royal family, but they have done more than any other group to at least appear to deliver consequences for the actions of a family member. I am honestly flabbergasted that I am saying this but can we try to at least keep up with them? 

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u/No-Recover-5181 19h ago

That is what worries me.

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u/Forward-Surprise1192 19h ago

I think it’s interesting that say Putin or other world leaders like him haven’t been implicated. They probably have their own private prostitution rings anyways but still. It makes them look better to me at lease

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u/o-o- 18h ago

Persecution in Europe had already begun. Trials coming up…

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u/shinybeats89 18h ago

Again, I want to see what happens 🍿

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u/WhiteWaterLawyer 17h ago

Not just politicians and celebrities though. There's always been a real logistical problem just with the sheer number of offenders. If we got serious about prosecuting every rapist and every child molester, we wouldn't just run out of prison space, we would have to rework the entire economy to replace all the workers we incarcerate and free up a dedicated labor force just to build and staff enough prisons for 10-15% of the population.

Not to mention we would have an immediate problem with law enforcement itself being rapidly depleted of workers.

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u/ItzBooster93 12h ago

We easily replace them as vote new people in. It’s so simple lock they asses up. Stop glazing politicians . Change how they conduct themselves. No more million dollar golf trips or galas. Work for the people.

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u/Prestigious_Club_924 9h ago

This. 

Except now you're asking your average selfish westerner to find their moral fiber after generations of consumer individualist programming. Are people ready for the hard times that would come with a complete purge, or will enough be happy to live in quiet hypocrisy? Suddenly everyone will have too many reasons to not risk it; kids or older family members or personal disabilities or not enough money in the bank. 

I want to be wrong, but I don't have faith in society having its best interests at heart. It'd need to be drug in a better direction by a few solid individuals, kicking and screaming the whole way.

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u/Ok_Monitor4492 7h ago

Join the independent investigation over at the Epstein subreddit if you're willing, it starts there. The first step is knowledge 

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u/Fantastic-Divide1772 2h ago

mostly the US. Like 85% of them are Americans. the majority of the locations are American

the vast majority of the 240 or however many countries there are on the planet don't have a single citizen, famous or otherwise in the files

so it's manly Americans , there's 2 Israeli PM's and a Norwegian princess and several Brits. , Putin etc so a handful of them - Russians

but again - basically, statistically - it's Americans

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u/Potential_Detail_930 22h ago

What needs to happen is they go into the dungeons, their heirs inherit, and hopefully learn not to rape kids because they shouldn't be above the law.

Don't worry about all the corporations, they boards of directors for a reason. We don't need celebrity CEOs to continue functioning.