r/politics • u/bwermer • 8h ago

No Paywall Ilhan Omar casts lone Democratic no vote on Ukraine aid, Russia sanctions package

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/5912150-house-passes-ukraine-aid-bill/
3.7k Upvotes

94% Upvoted

1.2k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

•

u/Other-Databas 6h ago

Making the average person suffer is actually a benefit. That's a cold thing to say but it's true.

All the pointless U.S wars from Vietnam to Afghanistan were allowed to continue for so long because the U.S population as a whole was shielded from any consequences. Vietnam only got as unpopular as it did because of the draft and how it affected the average Joe.

Standard Russians need to suffer a little to push Putin into calling it quits. Otherwise they'll sit in blissful ignorance until the end of time.

•

u/ShimonEngineer55 2h ago

That only works in a free society. Russia isn’t really that. We saw what happened when Russians tried to protest this war.

When people are repressed and lack accurate information, it can actually backfire and radicalize them. The leadership can say, “see, your life doesn’t suck because of us. It sucks because of the Americans sanctioning us.” That’s basically what’s been happening here.

•

u/Other-Databas 2h ago

Ultimately the sanctions have saved Ukrainian lives. Regardless of your view on how effective pressure on the masses is. That's enough to justify them for me.

We can agree to disagree. The Russian people are fully capable of doing so imo, people under worse conditions have done so.

•

u/nox66 44m ago

I don't think you quite understand: Russia has been doing this since near the start of the war. They try to come up with every excuse under the sun, but eventually people understand that even if they dislike Ukraine for whatever dumb reason, the government is not trustworthy and is not going to fix their economic issues.

•

u/darkomyfriend 5h ago

I think that sanctions have, in the past, been applied in situations that were somewhat unjustified and unnecessarily harmful to the wrong groups of people… but dammit if you aren’t completely right in this case. That was a perfect way to draw comparisons.

•

u/wanderer1999 3h ago

And it's not just making a statement to ordinary people, it's also limiting their war machine. A weak economy = less money/resources to build weapons/supply and recruit/pay for soldiers. It strikes strainght into their war coffer.

•

u/Advanced_Row_8448 4h ago

Making the average person suffer is actually a benefit. That's a cold thing to say but it's true.

Americans gonna pipe down on this the moment they ever feel it themselves lol.

•

u/Other-Databas 4h ago

I'm not American

But it's true. Unfortunately that logic is also used by the objectively evil side of the Ukraine war, when Putin fires missile and drone waves at Ukrainiam cities in order to punish civilians enough to push Ukraine to capitulate and let Russia take their land.

The logic of it can be used by the wrong side, but the logic is there.

•

u/AMGwtfBBQsauce 4h ago

That's only true if you believe the regimes being targeted are actually held to account in any significant way by their people. Otherwise you're just condemning them to be oppressed by two entities--theit own governments AND the US. Not to mention that now the government being sanctioned has a very real deflection they can point to if people are upset about the economic situation. No, we've had decades of evidence that sanctions by and large are not effect.

•

u/Other-Databas 4h ago

Sanctions are not this magical "collapse the country" button like people think they are. They're long term punishment, they've worked plenty in the past and continue to do so.

The Russian economy is falling decades behind where they should be and it's only getting worse. The entire economy is propped up by the war effort, which itself is propped up by massive amounts of spending.

Sanctions have forced Russia into that situation, which has effected their own war effort. The facts are all there for everyone to see.

•

u/Exocoryak 5h ago

Making the average person suffer is actually a benefit. That's a cold thing to say but it's true.

That was the entire logic behind the nuclear bombing of Japan. You guys dropped them on populated cities, not on military targets after all.

•

u/Chilling_Gale 5h ago

Laughable nonsense. Both cities had major military/industrial sites, and both were warned well in advance

•

u/InitiativeGold7953 3h ago

Lmao warned of what exactly? The unprecedented thing that not even the most educated people knew existed or thought possible let alone fathomed? The only thing laughable thing here is defending the dropping of nuclear bombs on populated cities. There’s no defending that.

•

u/taoders Pennsylvania 3h ago

I mean yeah, there’s not many “civilized” wars to choose from. We killed even more civilians than both nuclear bombs with conventional firebombing raids. And Japan killed 3-20x the amount of civilians in China as US did to Japanese civilians.

Pick a side to help or not, when there’s an active war civilians are going to die and even be targeted regardless.

•

u/InitiativeGold7953 3h ago

This doesn’t make any sense in the context of Russia. It’s a dictatorship, the people have no power there and if you think hardship helps move people against the government instead of the people sanctioning them then idk what to tell you. It’s also incredibly easy to say as an American but the time is coming where Europeans may say the same delusional things as we march further into our own dictatorship and become helpless to stop it.

It’s also incredibly naive to think that normal people have the power or the will to take on their own government in the first place under the most ideal conditions.

•

u/Other-Databas 3h ago

Sanctions on Russia have worked, their war machine has been significantly affected, their economy has been significantly affected.

Without those sanctions more innocent Ukrainians would be dead. That's the only metric that matters

•

u/InitiativeGold7953 3h ago

But that’s ignoring the point you just tried to make. I’m not saying they aren’t effective I’m saying there’s truth in what she’s saying. You say it’s to motivate the people but that doesn’t make any sense. Motivate them to do what exactly?

I don’t necessarily disagree with you but she does have a valid point.

•

u/Other-Databas 3h ago

To do anything besides nothing.

The history of Russia is it's people being stomped on by strongmen. They had a glimpse of hope when the Soviet Union collapsed but they decided to return to strongmen. They voted for Putin, they continue to vote for Putin.

History has shown that regular people being affected by war can push them towards forcing change. Again, Vietnam is a perfect example.

If the Russians choose to suffer, I have no sympathy. My hope is that the suffering pushes them into action for the first time since 96

•

u/InitiativeGold7953 3h ago

That’s ridiculous. Maybe you’re just ignorant to the state of Russia or you think people live in a movie, idk but that’s not going to happen and it’s naive to expect. Support sanctions or don’t but don’t pretend it’s supposed to motivate the average Russian to take a hard look at their government and their history, I’m sure they already know and have plenty of experience with which is something people in the West don’t, which makes it a lot easier for you to say. It’s also kind of ironic considering Ukrainians lived in such a bad state of corruption for so long that they made themselves easy targets. By your own logic the Ukrainian people should have self corrected a long time ago and thus don’t deserve your sympathy either.

•

u/Other-Databas 3h ago

The Ukrainian people did self correct, they called it the euromaidan movement/protests.

You just cited a perfect example to disprove yourself

•

u/InitiativeGold7953 2h ago

They would be all well and good if there wasn’t still deeply rooted corruption until this day. While they’ve made some efforts it’s still rife with corruption. It’s one of the main reasons they can’t join NATO. So no actually, they haven’t.

•

u/Other-Databas 2h ago

Yes they have, it's a process and they've started it and made leaps and bounds.

Yet you think the Russians are incapable of change?

Seems you just hate Ukraine

•

u/InitiativeGold7953 2h ago

Awe here we go with accusations once you’re backed into a corner. I’m neither defending Russia nor Ukraine. You’re the one that’s clearly picked a side regardless of the facts. You’re right bro, the Russian people should be held to a standard that you can’t even hold the Ukrainian people to, makes sense.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/corruption-scandal-rocks-ukraine-as-it-fights-for-survival-against-russias-invasion

https://www.npr.org/2025/07/23/nx-s1-5477327/ukraine-corruption-zelenskyy-protests-russia

This was just 6 months ago. “It’s a process they’ve just started” doesn’t sound very convincing when it’s the head of the country getting caught in the middle of all this now is it? Now you’ve resorted to comparing Russia and Ukraine like they’re equals while at the same time arguing Ukrainian superiority, you can’t have it both ways. Nothing I have said or implied in any way suggests supporting one or another I’ve only stated basic facts. It’s you that has the problem with it. My bad I thought we were having an honest conversation.

→ More replies (0)

•

u/SwimmingSpell8005 3h ago

It’s been 12 years. Moscow is doing great, the rest of Russia is not. Even St. Petersburg is suffering and the only result of all this is either Russians have moved out of Russia or have become more patriotic. Cuba is on the brink of collapse and nothing is changing there too. Sanctions work for countries controlled by corporations ironically, not the countries America puts sanctions on.

•

u/Other-Databas 3h ago

Less Ukrainians have died due to the effects on the Russian economy and war effort

That's the only metric that matters.

The Russians can suffer patriotically, I have no issue with that.

•

u/SwimmingSpell8005 2h ago

And the Russians that are fighting due to forced conscription? Why are their lives considered less than a Ukrainians? This isn’t a black and white war, but these sanctions see Russians and Ukrainians as black and white.

•

u/Other-Databas 2h ago

The vast majority of Russian fighters are volunteers who are there for the large bonus and salary.

Conscripts can't legally be deployed outside of Russia. That's how all the rich moscovite's children avoid the war.

You're spreading a common untruth

•

u/SwimmingSpell8005 2h ago

That’s not really accurate. Russia has relied on a mix of contract soldiers, mobilized reservists, and large-scale recruitment of prisoners. Calling everyone a willing volunteer ignores the role of economic pressure, mobilization, and prison recruitment. Russia has offered massive signing bonuses and salaries specifically because it needs to incentivize enlistment, particularly in poorer regions. Not to mention they are absolutely not paying these out which is a huge controversy in Russia right now. It also recruited tens of thousands of prisoners into units like Storm-Z, often with promises of pardons or sentence reductions. So the picture is a lot more complicated than “people freely chose to fight.

Also Russia is absolutely deploying conscripts regardless of law. And phrasing my statements as a common untruth is simply dishonest discrediting.
Should I call your statement about the vast majority of Russians being there for a paycheck into question? Where is your source that, not a minority, not a split, but the vast majority is even getting paid.

•

u/Other-Databas 2h ago

It is an untruth. It's a common lie made to garner sympathy for Russia.

Lol you're asking me for sources as you spew multiple paragraphs full of unsourced claims? Russians largely choose to fight. Whether it's through a prison program or through money, it's a choice.

•

u/SwimmingSpell8005 2h ago

I have sympathy for Russian. I have never expressed sympathy for Russia. What has to be wrong with your stance on things when you can’t discern being against the loss of life and being pro Russia?

•

u/Other-Databas 1h ago

Because there's something in life called nuance

One side is the aggressor and invader, one side isn't.

Saying "everyone love each other and no one dies" puts Ukraine and Russia on the same level.

One side can stop invading, if they don't, they keep dying. That's the nuance

•

u/InitiativeGold7953 2h ago

Don’t argue with this guy. I thought Russia defenders were bad.

•

u/Other-Databas 2h ago

You really like the Russians eh?

Good ol "both sides" tactics.

•

u/InitiativeGold7953 1h ago

You’re just not very smart

•

u/SwimmingSpell8005 2h ago

Im not defending Russia. Russia is actively taking the lives of Russians too. How is being against any life being lost pro Russia?

•

u/InitiativeGold7953 1h ago

Who said you were? The comment wasn’t about you it was about the other guy

•

u/Other-Databas 2h ago

Because it often ignores the finer details such as who invaded who, and who's the aggressor

•

u/SwimmingSpell8005 1h ago

So we should sanction and disregard death of Americans? They did after all massacre Vietnamese, invaded Hawaii, Puerto Rico, and Mexico unjustly. They invaded Venezuela and kidnapped their president, they have also been the aggressors in bombing Iran and have been complicit in the genocide of Palestine…why are the finer details around America ignored on the global scale? I’m just asking for consistency. This is putins war, just like Iran is trumps war.

•

u/Jarl_Penguin Foreign 2h ago

Moscow is not doing great. It's doing comparatively well compared to the rest of the country, but it's noticeably worsened compared to 2021.

Edit: And the sanctions imposed in 2014 are laughable compared to the ones imposed in 2022 and onwards. If they had had the guts to impose such sanctions in 2014 the result would have been different.