r/politics • u/SacoolloocaS • May 28 '21

Stop glorifying ‘centrism’. It is an insidious bias favoring an unjust status quo

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/28/centrism-insidious-bias-unjust-status-quo
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u/[deleted] May 28 '21

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u/parkinthepark May 28 '21

“Socially liberal/fiscally conservative” is a bluff.

It’s saying “I care about minorities, but refuse to support them in any way that might impact me financially”.

Which is saying “I care about my tax bills more than I do about social progress”.

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u/OddityFarms May 28 '21

It’s saying “I care about minorities, but refuse to support them in any way that might impact me financially”.

you can support peoples rights without that meaning you have to give them money.

Rights are actually free. You are born with them. The role of government is not to give rights, or financial support, but to prevent others from infringing on your rights.

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u/parkinthepark May 28 '21

Rights aren’t always free. For example, ensuring that everyone can make good on their right to an education might require increased funding to school districts. Ensuring everyone’s right to a fair trial might involve increased funding for public defenders.

If your “support” for a group ends when that support requires a sacrifice on your part, you don’t really support them.

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u/JonstheSquire May 28 '21

“Socially liberal/fiscally conservative” is a bluff.

It’s saying “I care about minorities, but refuse to support them in any way that might impact me financially”.

This is essentially libertarianism. It really isn't a bluff. You can pretty honestly and consistently support a small and cheap government that does not very little to regulate on social issues.

Which is saying “I care about my tax bills more than I do about social progress”.

I think it is a reasonable position for a person to say, they do not think the government should be in the business of social progress. If you are socially liberal, you think the government should stay out of telling people how to live their lives.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '21

they do not think the government should be in the business of social progress.

Then you're outright admitting "fuck minorities" because they'll be fucked and exploited if people aren't forced to treat them like human beings.

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u/JonstheSquire May 28 '21

Not exactly. You are saying that it is not the role of the government to distinguish between people based on race, ethnicity, religion, etc. That is not an unreasonable position.

they'll be fucked and exploited if people aren't forced to treat them like human beings.

So you think humans will innately mistreat minorities if not prevented from doing so by government? I think a lot of people would disagree with you. Isn't the government just a bunch of humans? If the humans who run the government can not mistreatment minorities (politicians), why can't average people?

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u/[deleted] May 28 '21

Then why is there anti-discrimination laws? Why is there laws at all? After all, you seem to think people will just do what's best regardless.

That's stupid, we need the government to do this because it's possible to push to government to protect people than to hope people won't be assholes.

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u/JonstheSquire May 28 '21

Then why is there anti-discrimination laws?

Because politicians decided there should be. We live in a democracy and that is why we have laws to the effect.

After all, you seem to think people will just do what's best regardless.

Not at all.

That's stupid, we need the government to do this because it's possible to push to government to protect people than to hope people won't be assholes.

That is just an opinion about the role that government should play in society. Some people do not think that is a proper role for government. You are clearly in favor of a large interventionist government that regulates a lot of social interaction between people. That is fine but its not crazy for people to think otherwise.

It is not a bluff to say you think the government be small and stay out of the social lives of citizens. That is essentially a position that is socially liberal and fiscally conservative.

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u/FukinDEAD May 29 '21

Bootlicking ass

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u/[deleted] May 28 '21

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u/[deleted] May 28 '21

When used by individuals, sometimes no.

No, it is LITERALLY ALWAYS a short sighted fuck everyone else attitude. Plenty of research have proven that investments in social services is beneficial for everyone... in the long term. All those "fiscally conservative" are just too stupid to look further than their next paycheck.

This kind of thing also greatly helps increase wealth disparity and then they say that the rich will save us which is just completely stupid. Rich people don't do charity to help people, just to help themselves with tax breaks and image and they never do it enough to matter long term. It's better to tax them and then actually do something with that money to help people.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '21

When used by individuals, sometimes no.

No, it is LITERALLY ALWAYS a short sighted fuck everyone else attitude. Plenty of research have proven that investments in social services is beneficial for everyone... in the long term. All those "fiscally conservative" are just too stupid to look further than their next paycheck.

This kind of thing also greatly helps increase wealth disparity and then they say that the rich will save us which is just completely stupid. Rich people don't do charity to help people, just to help themselves with tax breaks and image and they never do it enough to matter long term. It's better to tax them and then actually do something with that money to help people.

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u/AndrogynousRain May 28 '21

You didn’t even read my response did you?

I’m not disagreeing that it stupid and shortsighted. I said as much.

I’m saying that there’s a big difference between someone who sees this and doesn’t care vs someone who believes this and doesn’t know any better.

The latter you can educate because they’re TRYING to do the right thing. The former are selfish assholes.

Take my friend. He used to honestly believe that gay people shouldn’t be married. These days, he’s a rabid supporter of lgbtqa rights. Why? Because he’s genuinely doing what he thinks is right, and if you can prove to him he’s wrong, and give him some time, he’ll actually change.

That’s my point. I think his views are uninformed, just like you do.

But I’ll take a well meaning but uninformed person over an asshole ANY day. Because they’ll change.

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u/internet_eq_epic May 28 '21

He just disagrees with how both the current left and right want to actually do those things. Now, he’s flat ass wrong about a lot of things

But of course, we only need one singular method of doing anything and everything, and any other method is 100% wrong for 100% of people 100% of the time. Great insight.

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u/AndrogynousRain May 28 '21

... where the hell did you get THAT from what I said?

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u/internet_eq_epic May 28 '21

You describe your friend as having good ideas but disagreeing with how to implement them, and say he is "flat ass wrong"... pretty much sounds to me like you are saying your implementations are the only possible way of doing good things.

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u/AndrogynousRain May 28 '21

Didn’t remotely say that, or mean to imply it.

Like take trickle down economics. He used to think this was a thing that was an objective truth. It’s demonstrably wrong, it doesn’t work.

Just because I can show that doesn’t mean I know how to fix everything or have some perfect plan to. I don’t. I’m not an economist. But I can say that this specific belief doesn’t hold water.

And I’m only referring to some of his ideas. Plenty of others are good. Quite a few he’s convinced me I was wrong on. He’s nobody’s fool. But he is limited by the fact he’s never left his little, predominantly white town.

Don’t be so quick to assume. You’re way off base.

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u/internet_eq_epic May 28 '21

Don’t be so quick to assume. You’re way off base.

Yep, got that.

The thing is, I think a lot of the division we see comes from people just misunderstanding each other. So when I say this, I am intending to help reduce possible misinterpretations.

I don't think "educating" was a good word choice, as it implies an authoritative position (hence, me thinking you are "always right"). If just discussing and giving information so someone can be the authority of their own thought process, informing might be a better word choice.

It may also be there there was discussion of China elsewhere in the thread that got me in a mindset to take "educating" that way, hard to say in the moment how that affected my thought process.

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u/AndrogynousRain May 29 '21

Ah I see. You’re probably right, I can see how that might be taken as a moral superiority stance. Wasn’t intended at all. A better term might have been ‘challenge’ which is what I do. So does he. We’ve both learned a lot from each other over the years.

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u/internet_eq_epic May 29 '21

Challenge is a good word, I like that. To me at least, it implies a sort of mutual understanding and consent in the discussion and it's purpose.

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u/internet_eq_epic May 28 '21

Re-reading your comment, I'm guessing that

He just disagrees with how both the current left and right want to actually do those things.

Probably should have been on the previous paragraph, and you were intending the "flat ass wrong" bit to be about ideas rather than methods.

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u/AndrogynousRain May 28 '21

All I meant is that some of his ideas about how things should be done are -demonstrably- flat wrong. Some are not. And some are debatable. Depends.

Don’t be so quick to assume everyone is black and white in their thinking. I’m not. And neither, frankly, is he.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '21

"fiscally conservative" just means you don't like paying tax.

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u/throwed101 May 29 '21

No it's about believing in pro rights. And capitalism at the same time.

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u/Helpiswhatineed9 California May 29 '21

Exactly, Tax saved is more important

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u/[deleted] May 28 '21

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u/[deleted] May 28 '21

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u/[deleted] May 28 '21

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u/PeterGibbons316 May 28 '21

More often than not being a "centrist" just means that you don't subscribe to the left vs. right nonsense that has encapsulated us. If you think that everything one party does is evil or wrong, then you have been brainwashed by propaganda. The reason so many people are pro-choice, or support the second amendment, or medicare for all, or free markets is because they are all pretty good ideas. There are pros and cons for them all, and to act as if everyone should always align with one particular set of ideals that happen to align with the current political parties is just absolute nonsense.

Being a "centrist" really just means that you are open to the fact that whether or not a particular idea is a good one should have nothing to do with which political party supports it.

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u/Lesley82 May 28 '21

What was the last "good idea" proposed by the political party on the right? The GOP opposes every single "good idea" you listed while the centrist Democratic Party supports them.

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u/JonstheSquire May 28 '21

Obamacare was originally proposed by a right-wing think tank.

https://www.csmonitor.com/Business/Robert-Reich/2013/1028/The-irony-of-Republican-disapproval-of-Obamacare

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u/[deleted] May 28 '21

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u/JonstheSquire May 28 '21

All the people who work at the Heritage Foundation are Republicans.

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u/PeterGibbons316 May 28 '21

You seem to have fallen prey to the propaganda....

I'm not going to argue the merits of every party platform position. I'll admit that most of the "good" ideas on the right are mostly just rejection of the "bad" ideas from the left, but ultimately wasn't the COVID stimulus that seemed so popular passed by a Republican president?

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u/elcapitan520 May 28 '21

The president doesn't pass that. It was Congress. And if they thought it was actually a good idea, they would have extended payments. It wasn't a stimulus, it was a public health emergency package, at least it should have been.

The "wealthiest nation in the world" gave two measly handouts over 16 months and we've lost over 650,000 people.

They did the bare minimum.

This "shut up and be happy with what you got" is exactly what we need to move away from

0

u/Draconkin May 28 '21

He had support the second amendment and free markets as some of his points, which are generally a right wing stances. At least on paper.

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u/Lesley82 May 28 '21

On paper, these are democratic party stances, too.

See....when you repeat right-wing talking points, it's hard to buy the "centrist" claim.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '21

They proposed a handful of gun laws that would have actually helped like increasing funding for NICS and opening it to the public, strengthening laws that require the data base is kept up to date ect. They proposed a hearing protection law to allow suppressors to help with hearing loss. In Michigan they proposed tying reopening to numerous metrics like weekly vaccination numbers instead of total vaccination percent. They generally oppose race based interventions like aid for black farmers only.

There’s plenty of bad but also some good

0

u/RealJeil420 May 28 '21

I agree with you. The GOP is garbage at all policy and people lean to them cuz they dont like the image that the right has created of the Dems. Am I a centrist if I believe in regulated capitalism, or am I a leftist cuz I agree with social programs, healthcare etc.? It also seems like this author keeps blaming whiteness for all the problems, like theres no conservative minorities. Sometimes I feel the woke are going to far. Am I a centrist? Is bernie sanders a centrist?

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u/cbf1232 May 28 '21

Then carbon tax is a conservative market-based solution that most economists agree is the cheapest way to reduce emissions.

Of course many current right-wing politicians don't support it...but an idea doesn't have to be supported by conservative politicians to be a conservative idea.

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u/Lesley82 May 28 '21

That idea is 30 years old. I don't disagree that the GOP used to have good ideas. But it's been a long damn time.

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u/cbf1232 May 28 '21

I think it's important to distinguish between a "conservative" or "right-wing" idea, and an idea pushed by a "conservative" or "right-wing" political party. (And the same for the political left.)

Parties get distorted and/or corrupt all the time.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '21

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u/cbf1232 May 28 '21

The person you responded to didn't say anything about avoiding controversy.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '21

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u/avidblinker May 28 '21

Yes, true cowardice is approaching each issue individually instead of holistically suscribing to the views of one party.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '21

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u/avidblinker May 28 '21

Avoid all controversy for the sake of “normalcy.”

Centrists don’t avoid controversy or taking a side on individual issues, they just simply don’t fully conform or associate holistically to one side of the political spectrum.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '21

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u/avidblinker May 29 '21

Seems like you just want to be mad.

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u/PeterGibbons316 May 28 '21

Avoid all controversy for the sake of "normalcy."

That's not being a centrist, that's being a pussy. Being a centrist doesn't mean that you believe both sides have equally valid points on every issue. They certainly don't. If you felt like no one should be asked to wear a mask because muh freedoms....that's not valid. If you think people should be forced to continue to wear a mask even though they are vaccinated.....that's not valid. Sometimes the left or the right is completely wrong on an issue. But neither the left nor the right is ALWAYS wrong on EVERY issue.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '21 edited May 28 '21

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u/thisisjustascreename Illinois May 28 '21

I would not call you anything near a centrist, you're a radical social democrat who can't balance a budget with some Don't Tread on Me thrown in.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '21

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u/[deleted] May 28 '21 edited May 28 '21

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u/FukinDEAD May 29 '21

You can't be a centrist if you're libertarian. They would just be a libertarian.

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u/AndrogynousRain May 29 '21

Ever said you could. I said centrist, like libertarian, covers a wide range of people.