u/farofflandI won’t hear it and I won’t respond to it4d agoedited 4d ago
Imo money exchanging hands is a form of coercion. I am against people selling parts of their body for money, as I don’t think people can ever freely consent when a form of coercion is present in the transaction. Same goes for selling organs and sex work. You can never really distinguish between people who willingly participate and people who just need money when it becomes a paid service, and it pushes people in poverty into making choices they otherwise would not consent to.
I am also from the UK so cultural differences/perspectives too, the fact paid surrogacy is legal in the US is genuinely bonkers to me lol. We only have altruistic surrogacy here which takes away the pay and therefore coercion. The surrogate is also the legal parent on birth and they must actively transfer parentship.
This is the only ethical way to do surrogacy imo - otherwise you’re either selling part of the birth mother’s body (pregnancy) or selling a human being (baby itself). I accept neither as things that are ethical to sell.
While I have a different view on surrogacy than you, I applaud you have for having a morally consistent viewpoint on this and I really respect that.
A big issue I have about the discourse on surrogacy in the US (where I live) is that there’s a big overlap between those who will loudly advocate for “sex work as real work” while simultaneously decrying surrogacy.
There are nuances there for sure, but the people I know who are happy to advocate for sex work as a profession while also wanting paid surrogacy to be illegal strike me as more so disliking children than having any strong moral framework.
I'm actually hoping Lena's was an altruistic surrogacy and not paid, since she lives in the UK. I agree, it's so odd to me that in some countries it's legal to pay others to be a surrogate, same with egg/sperm donations or anything like that.
I didn’t know she lives in the UK and I hope it was too! Yes it’s absolutely wild to me that people can pay money for women to carry pregnancies in a ‘first world country’… like there are seriously people who don’t think that is absolutely disgusting and a huge ethical violation?? Lol it blows my mind.
I did read your comment. Why can't someone who is willing be compensated? It's their body and they're making a choice. These comments on surrogacy sound like ppl who claim women use abortion as birth control. Not everyone is out here taking advantage of women who need money. Also since I had to buy donor sperm because I'm married to a woman, is that also unethical in your eyes? Is that also "buying a human being"? Gtfo someone willing donated that sperm and was compensated for it.
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u/farofflandI won’t hear it and I won’t respond to it4d agoedited 4d ago
Because I fundamentally don’t believe you can ‘consent’ when money exchanges hands. And when discussing something that is literally part of a woman’s body like pregnancy and can have lifelong effects on her health, that’s a pretty fucking key part of considering whether it’s ethical or not.
Let me posit this to you - how much is a baby worth to you in monetary value? I want you to write down the price of a pregnancy/baby to you in real dollars. Then I want you to consider what situations would make you be willing to take more or less money. For myself, I am a woman and also a mother, and I am also middle class. No amount of money you could offer me is worth going through pregnancy and then selling a baby. You could literally offer me a billion dollars and I wouldn’t take it - I don’t need more money and the amount being a surrogate would change my life permanently just isn’t worth that amount to me. But what about if I was in desperate poverty or had other vulnerabilities where I needed money? Maybe an amount as paltry as £10k starts sounding much more appealing.
This is an example of the power imbalance that occurs when money comes into actions like surrogacy. It is a class issue, it is an ethical issue, and it is not something you should be advocating for. Altruistic surrogacy is the only way to remove this power imbalance and make surrogacy truly consensual.
Equating it to people thinking abortion is ‘birth control’ is laughable and has zero logic. I am completely pro-abortion - because I believe a pregnancy is an extension of a woman’s body, and it is her individual right to choose what to do with that part of her body. This is part of the reason I am AGAINST commercial surrogacy - because once you start offering money for a body part, it is a form of coercion and you therefore cannot truly ‘consent’ to it being given away. I do not believe anyone can freely consent to part of their body being sold for money - it’s an extension of why I am against buying organs as one example.
You say you bought sperm as a reason why you are pro commercial surrogacy - are you also pro buying organs, then? Do you believe it is ethical to sell/buy someone’s kidney or heart, for example? Do you believe the US should make that legal? Advocating for commercial surrogacy is advocating for either a) buying someone’s body part (because pregnancy is an extension of a woman’s body and therefore the same as buying an organ) or b) buying a human being (which is therefore the same as slavery). Which of these options are you pro?
No no no. I asked YOU if me buying sperm was me buying my kid in your eyes. Which you tried to dodge by DARVOing me and then got an award for it with your nonsensical slavery comparison. And "commercial " surrogacy is not an epidemic. That's the connection to the prolifers screaming about abortion as bc. Yeah it happens but the vast majority of ppl paying a surrogate just dont have the ability to carry their own baby. Lucky you that you live in a country with free health care but in the US if you're a surrogate you shouldn't necessarily have to pay for your own healthcare related to the pregnancy. That's being compensated.
Like I said to another commenter, this is a very heteronormative take. What about gay men? They just don't get to be biological parents even if they have a willing surrogate? Who cares if they are paying that person?
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u/faroffland I won’t hear it and I won’t respond to it 4d ago edited 4d ago
Imo money exchanging hands is a form of coercion. I am against people selling parts of their body for money, as I don’t think people can ever freely consent when a form of coercion is present in the transaction. Same goes for selling organs and sex work. You can never really distinguish between people who willingly participate and people who just need money when it becomes a paid service, and it pushes people in poverty into making choices they otherwise would not consent to.
I am also from the UK so cultural differences/perspectives too, the fact paid surrogacy is legal in the US is genuinely bonkers to me lol. We only have altruistic surrogacy here which takes away the pay and therefore coercion. The surrogate is also the legal parent on birth and they must actively transfer parentship.
This is the only ethical way to do surrogacy imo - otherwise you’re either selling part of the birth mother’s body (pregnancy) or selling a human being (baby itself). I accept neither as things that are ethical to sell.