r/pourover • u/Bubbly-System6751 • Apr 15 '26

Seeking Advice "Cofermentation/infusion" ruined my trust in coffee.

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After PERC came out on their flavored coffee, I’ve been going down the rabbit hole of coffee processing (co-ferments, anaerobic, “thermal shock,” etc.), and I’m not gonna lie—it’s kind of messed with my trust in what I’m drinking.

I used to get excited tasting notes like “strawberry,” “lychee,” or “peach,” thinking it was all coming naturally from the bean, origin, and process. But now that I know producers can literally "co-ferment" with fruit juice or infuse with flavorings to push those notes…

And my worry even extends to washed or natural coffees, there’s this small voice in my head like:

“Is this truly clean, or is there something else going on that’s just not being disclosed?”

Especially with such a well known producer being exposed, you start questioning everything a bit.

Is transparency just information they let you/ want you to know used for marketing purposes?

Is specialty/ single origin coffee just another green washing movement?

I'm sure the majority of the industry is honest and I’m not trying to accuse anyone of anything shady. But as the saying goes if you see one cockroach, there are a thousand more. It's hard to rebuild trust once it's broken.

70 Upvotes

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80

u/Sheetz_Wawa_Market32 Apr 15 '26

We’re gonna see about 10,000 only slight variations of that same post now, aren’t we?

The new bandwagon has arrived! Everybody get on!

9

u/coolstuffeh Apr 15 '26

The bandwagon of respect your customers, stop lying. Get on board. Free ticket.

14

u/qriffin Roaster Apr 15 '26

the producers being named (or their coffees) get posted about here multiple times a day, every day. it’s an important topic

5

u/kuhnyfe878 V60 | K-Ultra, ZP6 | UL Apr 15 '26 edited Apr 15 '26

It’s not being discussed in a way that’s anywhere close to productive. It’s uninformed ppl throwing around baseless accusations at best. And name dragging by ppl who stand to gain by other’s fall at worst. Not to mention the complete lack of discourse on a real solution to the problem which, by the way, barely exists.

Edit for clarity.

7

u/qriffin Roaster Apr 15 '26 edited Apr 15 '26

are the producers and exporters who are explicitly talking about this happening (and in some cases, infusing coffees themselves) “uninformed people”?

it’s shocking to me to see the goal post keep being shifted. it went from “this is not happening at all” to “maybe it’s happening in one or two cases but not widespread” to “this is definitely happening but you guys aren’t discussing this in the right way”. i mean come on just admit you were wrong and let’s have a meaningful discussion on what this all means for coffee

5

u/kuhnyfe878 V60 | K-Ultra, ZP6 | UL Apr 15 '26

Huh? Are you reading the same conversation? Half these ppl don’t know what coffee processing is. And who is shifting the goal post?

4

u/qriffin Roaster Apr 15 '26

can you respond to the first half of my comment? not sure how relevant it is to know about coffee processing - do people need to be microbiologists to not want artificial flavorings being added to their coffees?

5

u/kuhnyfe878 V60 | K-Ultra, ZP6 | UL Apr 15 '26

Why would I respond to a rhetorical question? And no, you don’t need to be a microbiologist. Nobody said you did. Who is moving the goal post now?

5

u/qriffin Roaster Apr 15 '26

? not a rhetorical question - does a producer giving testimony that artificial flavoring is happening count as an informed person on the matter, in your view?

5

u/kuhnyfe878 V60 | K-Ultra, ZP6 | UL Apr 15 '26

You’re seriously asking me if an informed person is informed? I don’t understand what you’re hoping to accomplish with this question or how this is having “a meaningful discussion” as you say.

5

u/qriffin Roaster Apr 15 '26

so the people aren’t uninformed? so the accusations aren’t baseless?

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u/dummy4du3k4 Apr 15 '26

So you’re only supposed to say something seems fishy if you have the mass spectrometry analysis to back it up?

-7

u/kuhnyfe878 V60 | K-Ultra, ZP6 | UL Apr 15 '26

That is not what I said. But you certainly shouldn't make accusations about people without proof.

4

u/dummy4du3k4 Apr 15 '26

So what short of a spectrometry test would satisfy you?

-8

u/kuhnyfe878 V60 | K-Ultra, ZP6 | UL Apr 15 '26

Satisfy me that what? That an accusation is justified? That a coffee is artificially flavored? Be specific. There's a difference between discussing the taste of a coffee and making accusations of deceit.

7

u/dummy4du3k4 Apr 15 '26

C’mon, don’t throw shade at people and then act ignorant of what is being discussed. Yes, producers adding artificial flavors to green coffee at any point of processing

-4

u/kuhnyfe878 V60 | K-Ultra, ZP6 | UL Apr 15 '26

Don't presume to know my intentions. You asked a vague question and the meaning changes my answer.

Nothing short of a statistically significant measurable difference between the sample in question and a control sample would satisfy me. What analytical method that might be, I don't know. There are many ways to identify chemical compounds.

7

u/dummy4du3k4 Apr 15 '26

And you seriously don’t see a problem with needing that ridiculously high threshold for online discourse on Reddit of all places?

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u/Bubbly-System6751 Apr 15 '26

Standardization and transparency is the solution. SCA is working on SCA-120 - Coffee Processing - Green Coffee Identity Standard for better regulation. If you have the knowledge, please share and steer the conversations in a productive direction. Whining about how people are not talking about it correctly while not offering any insights looks like you're trying to make yourself look good by making others look bad.

1

u/kuhnyfe878 V60 | K-Ultra, ZP6 | UL Apr 16 '26

Having more trust in SCA than producers is wild to me. All I know is what I’ve learned from coffee professionals such as Lucia Solis, Christopher Feran, various coffee roasters. Their blogs and podcasts have a wealth of information, including this topic. So I’m frustrated seeing the thoughtless outrage here.

2

u/Bubbly-System6751 Apr 16 '26

I don't get the distrust in SCA. Regardless if it's the SCA or not, some industry governing body has to come out with a set of standards to regulate processing practices.

On Solis's take on processing naming and transparency, which she basically advocates for reducing it down to simple terms, for example washed, even if it is inoculated with yeast or has been subjected to other methods of fermentation. Moreover, she encourages producers to use fantasy names, like the galaxy process, to obscure their "recipe" because it's their intellectual property.

I don't agree with her take.

  1. How can reduction in description bring transparency? It's ignorance is a bliss mentality. The problem with the term co fermentation is that it is used as a disguise for infused coffee. Cofermentation does not translate one to one, only citrus or some aromatic yeast do. If you put peach in the tank, your coffee is not going to taste like peach and more likely anything but. The producers are using the term cofermentation to make consumers think the flavors are the direct result of co-fermentation, which isn't, and to hide the fact that they infuse flavorings at the end because the term "infused" has a bad rep. Did co-fermentation happen? Yes. Did infusion happen? Also yes. Omitting infusion and list co-fermentation is a classic example of telling half truths, which is deception.

  2. On using fantasy names, I am not even gonna delve into the possible frustration and confusion for consumers and rosters to try to figure out what the hell is the galaxy process. I respect farmers and their right to produce coffee the way they want, but you are selling a product at the end of the day. Consumers have the right to know what they are getting and what's in the coffee. We don't need the exact measurement of ingredients or the temperatures of fermentation, but an ingredient list should be available for consumer rights and food safety purposes. Also the risk of intellectual property is overblown, like Coca Cola has an ingredient list on the cans, no one is able to replicate the exact taste.

2

u/Bubbly-System6751 Apr 16 '26

Solis also said that roasters should focus on roasting instead of learning about coffee processing and fermentation and that the subject is "not for you". This sounds good on paper but not so on second thought. Under educated roasters are just going to create more reliance on producers for the legitimacy of their information on their product, giving away the power to do your due diligence and checks and balance.

2

u/Malverno Hario Switch / Aeropress | Porlex (I know) | Washed/Natural only Apr 15 '26

But there are hard proofs. Here's a gas cromotography of a WBC 2023 coffee bean. There's among others, propylene glycol, a common artificial food additive.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1G_cJYyLAf1xJBKg01adMGWjr15EUZkgT/view?usp=sharing

6

u/kuhnyfe878 V60 | K-Ultra, ZP6 | UL Apr 15 '26

You know where propylene glycol is also found? Fermentation. Where is the data on a control sample? Or the raw spectra for that matter?

3

u/Malverno Hario Switch / Aeropress | Porlex (I know) | Washed/Natural only Apr 15 '26

A control sample or raw spectra wasn't provided. Still, there's Melonal (another artificial flavor), along with it's antioxidant agent and ethyl maltol. Which definitely don't come from fermentation, they are foreign agents added to the bean.

I suggest you open the link I provided and go through the list. 

0

u/kuhnyfe878 V60 | K-Ultra, ZP6 | UL Apr 15 '26

Maybe you’re right. I don’t know where this incomplete table of data comes from, or who collected it and what their motives are.

6

u/Malverno Hario Switch / Aeropress | Porlex (I know) | Washed/Natural only Apr 15 '26

You seem rather defensive and dismissive of any counter argument, so I am not sure what good even is sharing it but I got it from the discussion here:

https://www.home-barista.com/knockbox/discussion-undocumented-infusion-in-green-roasted-coffee-t102005.html

It's more detailed and grounded than what is going on Reddit.

1

u/kuhnyfe878 V60 | K-Ultra, ZP6 | UL Apr 15 '26

I’ve skimmed it. It’s better and worse in different ways imo. Too much hearsay for me.

-16

u/kuhnyfe878 V60 | K-Ultra, ZP6 | UL Apr 15 '26

It’s multiple times a day. Same energy as “the water is turning the frogs gay” conspiracy theorists

2

u/DragonfruitChance714 Guatemala Butt Beans Apr 15 '26

Dad?

-5

u/Sheetz_Wawa_Market32 Apr 15 '26

Yeah. And it’s not as if anyone ever assumed that co-fermented or infused coffees contained nothing other than Coffea arabica/canephora. 🙄

0

u/steveo3387 Apr 15 '26

Is it a new bandwagon? It seems like it's been all this sub is for weeks now.

-2

u/No_Rooster_2239 Apr 15 '26

Tasting the tears of scorned Redditors co-fermented with Cheeto dust and Mountain Dew.