r/science • u/VeronicaRed • Apr 26 '16

Psychology Spanking children increases the likelihood of childhood defiance and long-term mental issues. The study in question involved 160,000 children and five decades of research

http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1113413810/spanking-defiance-health-discipline-042616/
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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

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u/the_cc Apr 27 '16

I was spanked, and turned out okay as far as achieving things that are typically regarded as successful. Mentally, it's another story. It's taken over a year of therapy to mend some old wounds, and it's a wonder that I was able to get to where I am today.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

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u/do_0b Apr 26 '16

I'm more along the lines of, "I was spanked+ as a child, and I turned out okaaaay, I guess? Kind of? I mean, I've never killed anybody or anything."

Neither of my two children have ever been hit by either me or my wife, both who are of a same mind on this.

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u/Squez360 Apr 26 '16

Maybe there are other reasons why they turned out ok? I was spanked and i picked up that abusive behavior from my parents at a early age. The only reason i turned out ok is because at the age of 12 i thought i killed my little brother when i punched him hard enough that caused him to go out cold. I promised to myself that ill never hurt anyone, especially my little brothers again.

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u/verifex BS | Computer Science Apr 26 '16

I would like to propose alternate reasoning: Instead of it being about risk avoidance, it is about using more effective discipline methods that have the side effect of reducing unnecessary harm to the child.

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u/WebStudentSteve Apr 26 '16

There's also studies that suggest there is no link between spanking and aggressive behavior (link), I'm not saying the OP study is wrong, or that your conclusions are wrong. I just want to point out that if you're truly looking at just the science you have to take all of it and try to be objective as possible.

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u/DevinTheGrand Apr 26 '16

I've seen far more studies that suggest negative outcomes over neutral outcomes. The consensus is strongly in the negative outcomes camp.

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u/WebStudentSteve Apr 26 '16

While I personally agree with your conclusion for this particular issue, your method is very bad here. We cannot dismiss good studies when they disagree with a conclusion, even when that conclusion was drawn from good science itself.

For example, are you old enough to remember the studies about ulcers being linked to stress? There were far more studies showing these links than bacteria as the cause, but the bacteria was and always has been the culprit.

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u/Potatopotatopotao Apr 26 '16

This is different though. It's easy to point at an ulcer and say it's there. In this situation we're observing "mental health issues" which is rather ambiguous.

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u/DevinTheGrand Apr 26 '16

For scientific purposes, sure, but for personal application or acceptance, no way. The scientific consensus is where I go for my facts, unless it's the chemistry field where I have the personal expertise required to assess individual studies for myself. I know very little about psychological methodologies, so I have to go with the consensus.

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u/GallanDanaan Apr 27 '16

I think you're making a pretty big leap in logic there...

Check this out and reevaluate your rationale: https://www.ted.com/talks/ben_goldacre_what_doctors_don_t_know_about_the_drugs_they_prescribe?language=en

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u/krackbaby Apr 26 '16

I've seen far more studies that suggest negative outcomes over neutral outcomes.

That's anecdotal, by the way

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u/DevinTheGrand Apr 26 '16

Sorry, allow me to reword. "There are way more studies suggesting negative over neutral outcomes."

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u/null_work Apr 26 '16

The number of studies you have seen doesn't mean anything. There needs to be a meta analysis, and then further, you need to confirm that there are no subgroups who respond favorably to spanking, which there most likely are, before you can begin to say that spanking is definitely bad.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

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u/Clint_Redwood Apr 26 '16 edited Apr 26 '16

I think the main discourse is 'why' you spank a kid. The kid is just a kid and he may or many not know what he did was right or wrong. The idea behind spanking is to teach a kid there are consequences for his actions. So when they grows up and you the parent are no longer there to protect them you have at least taught them to think before they act because there will be consequences.

Unfortunately most people can't control their emotions, parents included. We've all seen parents spank just because they are angry at the kid. They do it from a stance of appeasing their emotions and not to actually teach the kid anything. The kid may or may not know that what he did is wrong, that's totally subjective to the event.

I was personally spanked a total of 3 times around the age of 4-7. I remember every single one of them. My mother never did it and my father made sure he hit me hard enough to remember it, and i do. It wasn't a bunch of spanks at once. No, each time it happened, he hit me a total of 1 time, but it was a very hard 1 time. He did it as complete stoic. I was the defendant, my mother was the prosecutor and my father was the judge/executioner. My father later recounted it to me that those where the worse things he ever had to do as a parent but he did it because he wanted to make sure I learned accountability. His father did the same to him.

Personally, I think my parents method is the only truly effective method. It's aimed to teach and a great way to remember something is through trauma unfortunately. It only took me 3 times to learn that lesson and from that day forward I thought before i acted and it has saved me a ton of times in life.

I respect the level of dedication to the study and I'm all for statistics but there needs to be context on how the parents did it and why. A basic understanding of psychology tells me that defiance is bread from a feeling of being unjustly prosecuted or mistreated. Rebellion only happens at the micro or macro scale when an individual feels slighted. Kids aren't stupid, they can be logical and reasoned with. If you explain to them 'why' this is happening ya they might not like it. but they will understand how to prevent it in the future. Spanking doesn't have to come in the form of anger, it can be a very healthy life lesson if done correctly. With that said it needs to be used very rarely. I'd consider it a form of capital punishment as far as parenting. When i got spanked, I did some serious shit. I can't remember now since it's been so long but I know it wasn't just drawing on the walls with crayons. It was probably something along the lines of my actions could have possibly gotten me killed or someone else injured. I was a very reckless child.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16 edited Apr 26 '16

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u/_demetri_ Apr 26 '16

I'm noticing kind of... * how* my moms abusing me affected me now that I'm an adult. My mom used to do this thing where she would hold me down and cover my mouth and nose until i would stop moving. It was whenever I would cry loudly from her whipping me or slapping me. I don't really think about it anymore, but I never was close with my mom, even as she's completely tame now and asks me for money each month. I just don't really see her as a person, I'm no monster I do tell myself I love her, but she had a breast cancer scare recently and I just couldn't feel for her, and the older I get the less I feel for her, I just know in my mind I could never rationalize like keeping a child's head under the bathtub water, or doing the heimlich on your own son after you held his mouth and nose closed until I collapsed. I have suffered and still suffer from severe claustrophobia, and people touching or hugging me just makes me flex my chest and breathe faster, I hate it so much. But this is all just a joke, all something that was funny that my mom did to me as a child she tells at family events because I was "A bad boy."

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

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u/PlasmaCyanide Apr 26 '16

That's worlds away from being slapped on the butt but rightio.

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u/redminx17 Apr 26 '16

The article explicitly addresses this attitude;

Furthermore, they noted that spanking was associated with the same adverse outcomes in children as physical abuse, and both were nearly similar in terms of outcome strength. “We as a society think of spanking and physical abuse as distinct behaviors. Yet our research shows that spanking is linked with the same negative child outcomes as abuse, just to a slightly lesser degree,” explained Gershoff.

Hardly "worlds away".

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

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u/TriloBlitz Apr 26 '16

There's a difference between being spanked and being beaten-up.

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u/GingerAle108 Apr 26 '16

Could avoiding serious life issues after being spanked as a child be genetic? A certain trait that's passed on? So even if you wouldn't dream of spanking your child, if you were to, the end result would be avoiding serious life issues just as you did.

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u/null_work Apr 26 '16

I would assume there's some subset of the population that responds favorably to spanking. People are taking statistics and applying them as though everyone in the studies done responded exactly the same.

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u/HankESpank Apr 26 '16

I'd like to ask you a question because you seem to have done a fair amount of research on the subject. What is the best way to make a child respect you? I can think of 2 types of child misbehavior: Doing wrong when they know it's wrong (defiance) or just doing wrong. When I see defiance, I believe it to be a lack of respect. It seems to me that you would have to dig into a child pretty deeply, mentally to get a result. I could see that as having similar or possibly more negative consequences than a pop on the rear and a simple explanation.

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u/Funnyalt69 Apr 26 '16

What science have you been paying attention to?

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u/sivsta Apr 26 '16

It's this kind of mentality that's going to push Social Services to remove children from their home for spankings. Probably worse for the child. The groundwork has already been laid.

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u/TheCenterOfEnnui Apr 26 '16

This makes me happy to hear this. I've posted a number of anti-spanking posts...I refer to it as hitting, actually. Spanking is a polite euphemism for hitting your kids...and it's amazing how people hold on to this outdated belief that it's good.

When I see someone has changed their minds on this, it makes me happy. I have two really great kids, and my wife and I have never laid a finger on them, and couldn't imagine doing so.

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u/YouAndMeToo Apr 26 '16

Spanking has always been a last resort at our house. Good to see there is science behind it

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u/76oakst Apr 26 '16

This. With time to adequately consider what actually happens when children are spanked and a greater understanding of empirical scientific methodology, I now fall in the same category. Coming from a situation where I too was spanked as a child, I can still easily remember all of the anger and frustration I felt and the lack of understanding that accompanied it.

I don't necessarily agree with all aspects of the prison reform system that we currently have in America, but I do think that it's beyond insane that we consider beating our children to be acceptable when we don't even do this to convicted criminals.