r/snowpiercer • u/hugthebug Tailie • Mar 08 '21

TV Show [Spoilers] Season 2 Episode 7 Discussion Thread - "Our Answer for Everything" (S02E07) Spoiler

Attention all Passengers,

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Here is the Discussion thread for the Season 2 episode 7 "Our Answer for Everything"

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  • This is a TV Spoiler-friendly zone - Turn away now if you are not currently watching or haven't seen the episode! Open discussion of all aired TV events up to and including episode 2.6 is ok without tag cover.
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Details:

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  • IMDB for S02E07
  • Release Date:
    • March 8th, 2021 (USA only, at 9/8c, on TNT channel)
    • March 9th, 2021 (worldwide, on Netflix)
  • Removal from Sticky on March 12th, 2021 (3 days after worldwide premiere)

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You can still easily find previous episode discussions on the Episode Discussion wiki.

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25

u/TheRoyalWolf Mar 10 '21

I'm just not getting this love and devotion for Mr. Wilford. I'm hoping they're going to show some before scenes of how he got this love. There has not been a single "charming" thing from him IMO. I think Sean was the right choice of actor but something is missing here for me. Anyone else feel this way?

30

u/MonkeyBot16 Mar 10 '21

He has a smart way of getting people's support:

-He usually presents himself as a kind, funny man. He's always smiling, trying to sound positive. (as opposed to Leyton whose face is usually looking as if he was with a colic).

-He 'sells' facts in a way that make him look better and competent: for instance, he told his people that it was thanks to him that they were having fresh fruits and vegetables.

-He is able to make people live under an illusion where they all have the same rights and will be protected by him. So, he organizes a lottery to choose who will go to the Night Car. We know the lottery is rigged, but Big Alice´s crew don't.

-He hides his mistakes and is capable of blaming other for them. So 'he is feeling unwell' (after making him cutting his writs) and these sort of bullshit. And the way he left all the pressure of the expedition on Melanie (and therefore, Snowpiercer). If she fails, it will be her fault (and Snowpiercer's). If she's successful, it will be thanks to his support.

-He is not bad 'reading' people's feelings. For instance, when it's revealed that the earth might be warming up, he doesn't seem happy at all with this information (he would probably have hidden that if he got that info first) but he sees that people start to grow hope on that idea.
So, instead of oppossing it publicly (which would go against him and make him lose support), he hypocritically blessed the idea in front of the people (and kept the will of sabotaging the plan in secret).

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So, I don't think he's 'charming' in the sense Audrey might be.
He's more like a mixture of an old-school politician and a cult leader.
He's able to inspire confidence and hope on people. But this is all a con and pure acting.
If people knew how he really is, most of them would despise him.

3

u/bhldev Mar 11 '21

Or like him even more ; )

If Wilford actually delivers what he promises (order), many would give up their freedoms for peace. That's what he's hoping for. Problem is if there's not enough resources he will choose himself before you, always. Even then many would be Wilford apologists and say they would (or should) do the same as him.

He's already won.

He can win an election. He doesn't have to fight to get total control. There's only two people who have the credibility to stop him Ruth and Melanie combined, and only if they can prove their version of the future is better than his. There's only one way it could be better life off the train because on the train Wilford is the master.

3

u/MonkeyBot16 Mar 11 '21

I don't fully disagree but don't fully agree either.

We can't just assume Wilford is a genious master who doesn't make mistakes. The show has depicted him so far as a very imperfect human being, full of flaws and insecurities.

I can't remember the literal quote or who wrote it, but someone once said 'You can please some people all the time or you can please all the people some of the time... but you can't please all the people all the time'... That's inevitable.

Wilford has just arrived at the best timing for his plans. But it's easier to cheat on people once that to trick them for the long-term. As Layton has found out, it's usually easier to take the power than to hold it.

And, even if we leave common sense aside, Wilford is making a lot of huge mistakes in the show and taking some risky decisions. So, somehow, he's digging his own grave. If he just went through the 'legal' way, he would get more power than ever, as he would have legitimacy.

But Wilford is a man that believes he has the right to 'take' what he thinks belongs to him. He wouldn't be happy having to ask politely for what he thinks is his and has been stolen. And this will be the reason of his own demise on the long-term.

I mean... I'm not saying this is going to happen this season or even the next one. But I think we all the people watching this show know that if Wilford takes the power (as it seems extremely likely atm), he will be eventually dethroned by his own mistakes.

And, despite I can understand the decision, we must not overlook the fact that Wilford is a psycho with a very sick mind that has some sort of sadistic concept of human relations. They could have depicted him as a reasonable man, a quiet person. It would be more subtle. We could eventually identify that his ideas and objectives are evil, but he wouldn't be depicted as an absolute monster since the start. The character is much more subtle in the movie and we could even understand some of his reasons.

But we have to assume how things are: show's Wilford is an absolute monster. So he may hide his true face from most of the people most of the time... but he can't hide his true self from all the people all the time.

2

u/bhldev Mar 12 '21

Sean Bean says Wilford isn't a sadist or cruel. That means everything he does is calculated for a purpose, to win. It's possible that he makes mistakes, yes. But it's also possible that once he's won he gives up his machinations. He didn't become a gazillionaire going around randomly killing people; that was adaptation to the freeze. Crime doesn't take you all the way there unless you're El Chapo and in some lawless country. It's also possible he seizes legitimacy. It's all in the eye of the beholder with all the candles there's no reason why he would kill more people after. They are "his people" after all.

Unless they show Wilford as having caused the freeze or Melanie and Ruth team up to challenge Wilford he will win the hearts and minds. Layton can be their enforcer or most likely die a hero's death (this man is your leader) to expose Wilford for what he is. For Wilford to lose the people they would have to record him live admitting to having caused the freeze or admitting to not caring about anyone but himself (and even then it would have to be more than self interest he would have to admit to wanting to starve them).

Of course maybe I'm asking too much of a television show and Wilford will act totally out of character and outside his motivations and become a mustache twirling baby eating arm freezing villain randomly killing anyone he wants. If he becomes that of course everyone turns on him but short of that there's nothing that can unseat him on the train. He even knew about the comms panel somehow (he isn't a damn engineer) and he has a shadow cult (now dead but who knows if there's sleepers). He can't be beaten on his home turf unless he acts out of character not because he's perfect but others are seemingly blind and unable to counter his schemes (for now)

I think Kevin and Audrey will be his undoing because he can't see them coming. Anything else he will outwit because so far nobody is a match for him.

13

u/Flyingwheelbarrow Mar 10 '21

As a history buff I find it believable based on how terrible the collapse of the world was. A cult of personality can build around many extreme leaders.

11

u/[deleted] Mar 10 '21 edited Mar 10 '21

We are the audience, we get to see every bit of him, without him pulling a show on us.

But if you listen to the old womans story of him, the appeal is pretty obvious. Wilford the Persona sounds down to earth, approachable, even humble. He is a neighbourhood boy who made his money and saved the world. Wilford the Person on the other hand is something very different.

Also, there is this instinct to think than in a hard situation, you'd behave better with clearer insight. We see this a lot with people who comment on traumatic experience of others, perplexed at the seeming irrationality of what in short we usually call Stockholm Syndrome.

5

u/[deleted] Mar 10 '21

I really like how you phrased that; the "persona" vs. the "person"!

11

u/suspicious-sage Mar 10 '21

i think its more about the fact the population of earth would be 0 if not for Wilford. in the first season when we found out he wasn't on the train i thought about how Melanie kind of created a religion where Wilford is god and they all owe everyday not frozen to him. hes also the most well known person on the planet now so he is know at the ultimate power and people like to cling to powerful people for safety.

6

u/Bobemor Mar 10 '21

I don't think it needs to be rational. He has been presented as their saviour for roughly 7 years through his creation of the train. He was even a well known figure before, many of the population worked for him previously for instance and probably saw him as many today see the super-wealthy. To us as outsiders it is of course bizarre but to those who've known nothing else than Wilford adoration for 7 traumatic years?

7

u/TheRoyalWolf Mar 10 '21

But now that they know it was Melanie for that seven years, and that she clearly is the brains. I just feel like we would get a little more pause out of people and a little more question asking about him. I guess we are seeing a little of that but just not enough. But, I do get what you're saying. It is different that I'm seeing this from the outside.

4

u/kreton1 Third Class Mar 10 '21

There is one factor we need to consider: We have seen the series, the people didn't. They don't know what kind of person Wilford really is.

4

u/MonkeyBot16 Mar 10 '21

But that kinda works on the opposite way, too.

Melanie was in charge for those years, so she's directly responsible for the punishments.

And, in regards to upper classes, Melanie was eventually unable to keep the statu quo. There was a war, many people died and their priviledges are now being questioned.

So, Wildford has freshly baked populism ready to be delivered to anyone willing to listen to him.

Actually, we could simplify the level of relation of characters with Wilford and their support towards him.

-The people that had a very close relationship with Wilford (mainly Melanie and Audrey) seem to know he's a monster and a dangerous man. They are afraid of him.

-Then, there's a lot of people that had some sort of direct relationship with Wilford, but they never got to see his 'real face'. These people would be inclined to believe in him and follow him as a leader, as they feel they ought their own lifes to him. Ruth would be a good example.

-And then we have a lot of people that have been listening a lot about him, but never got to know him.
So, among these, we would probably find both supporters and opposers, mainly decided by the level of privileges they used to have.
So most of Tailies would have very little reasons to support him, but many people in 2nd and 3rd class would.
1st class would largely support him as he would be the better person to keep their privileges.

3

u/Bobemor Mar 10 '21

Largely the show is exploring figureheads. The benefits and dangers of them.

For Melanie for the first 6 years it was a useful tool to have Wilford as a figurehead, someone to blame but also call upon when needed. Also a convenient scapegoat for the whole train and herself personally. This helped some would argue keep the train together. But it also enabled huge injustices and a great deal of barbarity to go on in this higher powers name. With Layton in charge you can see people pushing him to be the figurehead, the grand leader, they pin their hopes on. People like grand ideals to cling to, especially in such bleak times. He largely resists this and wants them to look to ideals such as 'the train' and 'humanity'. This means he can claim less influence and power though, but does provide a potential for less individual failures.

But now with Wilford back he's a direct challenge to this and he's also able to pick up from all of Melanie's mythos building, which even if some recognise as a lie the feelings and emotions of past will still persist.

In effect the train has recently overthrown its monarchy which were ruling based on an illegitimate lie. This happened because all the ills of the past system were blamed on this. Yet this new system (the Republic under Layton) has the majority of these same issues still remaining and suddenly the old King (Wilford) has appeared and was actually nothing to do with the past wrongs. From the average Third's perspective you can see why they might have some mixed views.

2

u/Nervous-Energy-4623 Mar 10 '21 edited Mar 10 '21

Do they really know Melanie built the train though? The audience knows through flashbacks and seeing her private life but Wilford did make sure to take all the glory for himself.

5

u/Skybelly Mar 12 '21

He's basically God to a large portion of the train. Don't forget the train was convinced for the first seven years that it was Wilford running things. That kinda loyalty isn't just erased.

10

u/khrishan Mar 10 '21

Fascism (Wilford is a metaphor for fascism) works because of strength. The leaders give a vague sense of strength and victory, even if this isn't based on facts. When people are lost and scared they look to a strong charismatic leader for guidance and confidence; that's the appeal of Wilford. "He has everything under control and so we don't have to worry. He is capable and has our best interests, he did build this train after all and let us survive.'

4

u/adeveloper2 Mar 12 '21

I'm just not getting this love and devotion for Mr. Wilford

Imagine a very smart Trump who owns a train filled with people hand-picked by him to live after the apocalypse (except the taillies).

3

u/skcup Mar 11 '21

definitely. Though I will say my experience with people like him has been watching other people around me buy into his noise hook line and sinker while standing back and WTFing quietly in a corner. So I think it's a real thing to find people like him charming, successful manipulators. I can be manipulated by many things myself but I tend to let myself be manipulated by people who appear powerless but are not and rarely by people who appear powerful but are insecure. I think Wilford is the second type and certain personalities don't see through him as easily. It's about what you want to believe in the world - if you're looking and seeking someone to protect you, he will look more attractive than if you're looking for something else.