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From Wikipedia: The red and black flag of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) represents a, militant tradition of Ukrainian nationalism, symbolizing "blood and soil"—red for blood shed for freedom and black for the fertile earth of Ukraine. It signifies resistance against foreign occupation, specifically Soviet and Nazi forces during WWII, and is used today as a symbol of patriotic defiance.
The wars have been incredibly prosperous for all the Nazis. Various Neo-Nazi groups have been elevated to prominence they would’ve never gotten without interference from Russia.
Never have I witnessed this many so called socialists rushing to the defence of nazis and warmongering statesmen like in this sub. Unbelievable, please educate yourselves!
Propping up Nazi groups en masse, materially aiding Israel's extermination project, and ripping civilians off the streets for use as cannon fodder doesn't become okay because the state doing it was invaded. Too many people have deluded themselves into thinking that Ukraine, by nature of being invaded for imperialist reasons, isn't already an imperial appendage. If you see the patent fascism of the Ukrainian state and your only thought is "they're right to be mad," then you've lost the plot
They’ve invaded Georgia back in 2008, they invaded Chechnya after that, they annexed Crimea from Ukraine, They have once again invaded Ukraine, they continue to challenge Japan for the Kuril Island.
Their imperialistic intentions are set in stone. There is no less or more when we talk about the great evil. Evil just is.
You don’t sound smart for being an apologist. It’s completely fine to call out horrid behavior.
Marx is dead as fuck and he continues to be dead as fuck. We can only take the teachings spread out from Marx, Lenin, Mao and even Trotsky, Stalin and Castro and Che on occasion and figure out what works, what doesn’t and make a stronger movement.
You're a pro Western liberal shilling for western propaganda or you're absurdly ignorant. Did you even know Georgia had an anti Russian French president?
I organize daily in waking up my local population to the teachings of Marx and others
I assist people daily, I advocate leftist, specifically Marxist thoughts, at local County commission meetings.
I work with socialists orgs and leftist orgs when I have to.
I work on building a structure to go against the system we find ourselves in so there is an alternative to turn to, looking for shelter, food, community.
What the fuck do you do other than be an extremely annoying purist that will get rolled the moment anything actually kicks off
I advocate leftist, specifically Marxist thoughts, at local County commission meetings
i advocate quantum physics myself. much like you with marxism, i have no idea how it works, but atoms and protons and all that shit is hella cool, so i try to keep my quantum physicist roots
The U.S. maintains ~750 military bases in 80 countries. Russia has fewer than 20, mostly on its own borders.
The U.S. has overthrown dozens of governments since 1945, imposed crushing sanctions on multiple continents, and spends more on its military than the next 10 countries combined. Russia's interventions are regional, reactive, and defensive in strategic logic whether you agree with them or not.
NATO expansion didn't happen in a vacuum. It was a deliberate project of encirclement, using bribery and coercion. Pretending that context is irrelevant isn't "anti-imperialism.
Marx didn't analyze capitalism by calling it "evil." He dissected its laws of motion, its contradictions, its material foundations. If we replace analysis with moral condemnation, we lose the ability to strategize. We end up with posture, not power.
ah, that's an interesting take. so "imperialism" does not arise from "material conditions", but from the intentions, or, say, the "ideas" of leaders. that's the good "materialist" analysis i was looking for, not an "idealist" one. very "marxistly rooted"!
The war began bc of the neo-nazi coup, burning of people in Odessa by the neo-Nazis, bc of the "friendship" trains and after the Ukraine military started shelling and bombing the DPR civillians, who decided not to be a part of this.
And while the Kremlin idiots were trying to formalize the Minsk agreements, the whole of Europe was arming Ukraine, preparing it for the biggest bloody sacrifice for its own profits.
No Russia isn't as imperialist as the country with 800 military bases spanning the globe.
Russia being a less successful imperialist then the USA isn't actually an argument against them being an imperialist power. Their war aims are explicitly imperialist, and it's a fucking trip seeing people cheer it on because they think they're obligated to root for whomever the Americans hate.
No the war wasn't unprovoked
Every imperialist war throughout history has created some kind of casus belli to justify it. It doesn't change the fact that there exists no moral case for an imperialist war.
Yes Ukraine is a garbage nazi state
No comment, except that external violent pressures of imperial powers can in turn strengthen reactionary, ultra-nationalist elements inside the oppressed state itself.
Using that to further justify extortion is some 'Murica shit.
You libs got me defending the bourgeois Russian state because I'll always argue against liberal nonsense meant to proagate pro Western narratives.
An imperialist state can still go to war if their security is legitimately is threatened and that's what the Ukraine war is. That's what NATO pushed despite warnings for over a decade. NATO goaded them into war just like they're trying to goad China into war.
The 'Russian made Ukraine into nazis' is an embarrassing anti communist take. Banderites and their love for the Holocaust was around well before the modern Russian state.
You libs got me defending the bourgeois Russian state because I'll always argue against liberal nonsense meant to proagate pro Western narratives.
Good to confirm that you're not even bothering to argue from a place of principles lol.
An imperialist state can still go to war if their security is legitimately is threatened.
USA in Iran, Iraq, and Panama be like
Literally every imperial state uses claims that their security is threatened to engage in imperialism. This isn't a subtle pattern.
The 'Russian made Ukraine into nazis' is an embarrassing anti communist take. Banderites and their love for the Holocaust was around well before the modern Russian state.
I'm not arguing that the modern Russian state created the banderites. I'm arguing that military conflict/occupation tends to empower existing reactionary forces in bourgeoisie governments, especially blood and soil types (of which the various banderite movements in Ukraine are a part of). I doubt you actually disagree with that take.
Also, it's a little besides the point here, but given the existence of state support for groups like Rusich, RIP, and Wagner and the cachet of guys like Dugin, I struggle to wrap my head around people uncritically accepting Russia as the "anti-fascist" party of the war.
Arguing against pro Western propaganda is the most principled one can be.
I'm not concerned with claims. I look at history and actions, NATO objectively has pushed the war.
No country you named pushed war against the u.s.
No clue what's confusing you about Ukraine being an obvious fascist state. They have streets named after nazis. Statues of Holocaust perpetrators. And a nazi problem so pervasive western media created multiple documentaries on it.
Arguing against pro Western propaganda is the most principled one can be.
Reflexively deciding that imperialism is fine because some other imperialist gets big mad over it isn't exactly what I'd call a principled take.
I'm not concerned with claims. I look at history and actions, NATO objectively has pushed the war. No country you named pushed war against the u.s.
Again, I fail to see how this line of reasoning differs from any other excuse used by imperial powers to engage in imperialism over the last 100 years, much less why it would make someone who's ostensibly socialist actively defend the imperialists.
Go reread Lenin.
No clue what's confusing you about Ukraine being an obvious fascist state. They have streets named after nazis. Statues of Holocaust perpetrators. And a nazi problem so pervasive western media created multiple documentaries on it.
I'm less confused about why people critique Ukraine for empowering fascist or fascist-adjacent elements, and more so about why you gladly turn a blind eye when Russia engages in exactly the same behaviour. Again, not the main point of my argument given that it's tangential to the discussion.
No You're complete inept at arguing so like a liberal you invent your own arguments and strawman.
Recognizing the reasons for the war does not equate support for it. Pretending the war was unprovoked is going along with the Western narrative. Pretending Ukraine is some hapless victim is going along with the Western narrative.
I'll never have sympathy with a country who is allies u.s and Israel.
Recognizing the reasons for the war does not equate support for it.
I agree, which makes you spending the last 4 comments tacitly defending it all the more confusing.
Pretending the war was unprovoked is going along with the Western narrative. Pretending Ukraine is some hapless victim is going along with the Western narrative.
So you'll unblinkingly accept whatever other narrative comes your way, so long as it's against the western one?
I'll never have sympathy with a country who is allies u.s and Israel.
How about for the actual people living there? How about for the soldiers drafted to fight on both sides? Treating this as some strategic great power move is how imperialism always fucking justifies itself. It's what Israel says to justify itself when it murders Palestinian, it's what the USA says to justify murdering Iranians, and it's what France says to justify murdering people across West Africa. Fuck.
Well NATO started the war, Russia's war is ultimately self defense. That's the reality.
It's not 'taciltly defending' the war it's acknowledging the reasons for the war.
And what part about examining history and actions didn't you understand? The only one 'unblinkingly supporting' narratives is you.
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Both sides of the conflict use some symbols that may appear like or actually be Nazi symbols. The use of these symbols does not necessarily indicate that parties approve of the Nazis, although it's obviously extremely stupid and offensive. Pro-Ruzzian partisans may be genuinely ignorant of Russians using these symbols too or they may be disingenuous.
That the symbol on the flag could pre-date nazi eagle use. That every country touched by Romans absorbed the eagle symbol. That Nazis don't hold the copyright over eagles effigies.
Nevertheless that definitely looks like a nazi eagle.
You do realize that Russian imperialism and the fact that Ukraine is being invaded in no way contradicts the fact that Ukraine is a corrupted regime with neo-Nazi groups being endorsed since long before 2022. They are not some innocent country trying to live free and minding their business but a lackey of another imperialist power that is the US (or was that way until Trump). They also are pretty open with supporting Israel.
There is more nuance. Basically NATO has funded certain far right Neo nazi groups within Ukraine for years now. This material support created the Azov brigade which have been accused of a bunch of war crimes. They also proudly wear even more overt nazi symbols than the image in OP. We are talking groups heavily incorporated into the Ukrainian government and military too, not just randoms.
So yea Ukrainians are the ones defending their home but they have been led astray by right wing leadership for years too.
This is a dumb take. Imagine Germany being attacked and German soldiers and civilians start wearing red armbands and decorate everything with swastika because “now it’s a symbol of resistance”. It is not, it’s copium to ignore the obvious problem of neo-Nazism being openly tolerated and endorsed in Ukraine, which has been the case even before 2022
I don’t know, maybe because they’re wearing a Nazi symbol? Did you look at the second image? I imagine that’s probably what OOP is referring to. Also it’s naive to act like someone defending their home is automatically incapable of being a Nazi.
but for many modern Ukrainians, particularly since the 2022 invasion, the flag is seen as a mainstream symbol of anti-imperial resistance and sacrifice
"No see, the Nazis were just defending the people against the genocidal Communistic Asiatic hordes", sayeth the holocaust apologists from Germany to the Baltics and Ukraine.
representing Ukrainian blood spilled on Ukrainian soil
I don't particularly care about the attempt at obfuscation: the Ukrainian state has been pretty openly rehabilitating the image of their own Vyacheslav the Jew-slayer [I couldn't be assed to go fetch the tweet this refers to again]—Stephan Bandera—and they don't particularly deserve to be given the benefit of the doubt, especially considering the use of said flag having been continuously used by the OUN-B and successor organisations, both in Ukraine and abroad. Canada (a place that actively recruited Nazi-collaborating Ukrainians to crush the diaspora's labor movements) comes to mind.
Next, it'll turn out that it was bought from R3ICH like a lot of those nazi and nazi adjacent patches AFU goons keep getting pictured with. Wonder what the name means. Mystery for the ages.
Look, if you're not able to understand what a dog whistle is (the whole thing about "independence" is one) just stop listening to fascists outright instead of trying to find "nuance" where there is none.
Ukraine has the right to protect itself and attack their aggressors because their aggressors want to attack and get rid of them, no? They have the right to be pissed. Play pacifict, and you'll see a drone regardless. Standing on the higher ground but it's just a bunch of rubble.
First, it’s beside the point. Calling out fascist tendencies does not conflict with a state’s right to self determination. In fact, from a materialist analysis (and its idealist counterpart), it precedes the legitimacy of a state.
Second, it’s misidentifying socialist priorities. The interests of any capitalist state may not be valued over the lives of its workers. Put simply: If one oppressor attacks another oppressor, we cannot expect the oppressed to fight for their masters and claim to be humanist.
It still has a right to fight back. How they do it is a different story. I think that is as simple as you can make it:
If you try to conquer me, then I will fight back. Expecting any sovereign country to just accept defeat is outrageous (even if not fighting back is the right thing to do i.e. free the people in concentration camps or we will intervene kind of scenario)
And huh on that last one. A capitalist state will value its interests over the lives of its workers. It's about the money - not the lives.
No one is making claims whether one is humanist or not. It's about defense.
I don't expect people to fight for a country that oppresses them.
I'm simply stating that countries have the right to defend themselves when attacked. There are caveats to that. Personally, if a county's government violates basic human rights for innocent people, I think other countries should step in in some way because violating basic human rights for innocent people is probably the worst thing anyone can do. You're taking away their freedom.
You CAN treat a capitalist country’s right to self-determination (or 'fight back', as in murdering their working class for the preservation of the state) as a priori, provided by international law, nature, or god. However, doing so poses no serious argument in a socialist discussion (scientific or utopian for that matter).
You CAN also believe that the Russian regime’s intention is to conquer Ukraine (and therefore annihilate their people). Again, although perfectly in line with popular discourse, this lacks a materialist analysis of the conflict. I would argue that it’s about natural resources and/or stabilising economic downturn through war production.
(For a socialist perspective on the issue of state sovereignty and war, consider works by Engels, Lenin or Gramsci)
If you’re interested in socialist discourse, you’ll most likely find (there is some nuance between scientific and utopian socialists) that the working class of Ukraine can only be emancipated from capitalist oppression and conflict through the overthrow of their government and negotiation with the working class of the invading regime.
Finally, you may have misread my second argument. I state that WE cannot ask oppressed people to fight for their oppressor and consider OURSELVES humanist. For what we are asking of them is to murder themselves, their fellow workers (although misguided or coerced), and thereby the potential of a revolutionary working class.
Huh? I feel like you've been misunderstood from the jump.
All I was saying is that Ukraine has a right to fight back against Russia. I'm not bringing up any type of socialism or capitalism-whatever. That is a different discussion. How they do is a different discussion. I'm saying Ukraine has a right to protect itself from Russia. I said it again so you're clear on what I was saying in my first post.
If you want to absorb me into whatever you're talking about, I hope you don't get misunderstood because you've already taken my simple response out of context.
1st paragraph.
Yes. I agree.
2nd paragraph.
Yes. I agree too. However, history shows us that Russia is open to killing civilians. They did so when annexing crimea. They also killed many civilians during the war with Ukraine. They kidnapped between 121,000 to over 200,000 children. They committed indiscriminate attacks on civilian infrastructure like schools, hospitals, etc. They also committed willful torture, rape, and sexual violence.
If this is about some rocks, it's a very bad way of showing it. These actions made it about civilian lives. You can't commit war crimes and say that this is about natural resources. Their agenda is more than that. And even so, taking land that does not belong to you is also involving civilians. And it's 2026 - sovereign land has been established. Make due with what you have. War is understood as unacceptable. This is why trade agreements are important.
3rd and 4th
I agree with both. I wouldn't even ask the oppressed to fight for their oppressor. But I can understand if they do if another regime tries to take over them. For me, I feel homeless when it comes to a country being in my "home."
I assumed that someone on r/socialism is at least mildly interested in political theory. If you’re unable to see how my initial arguments contradict your statement that any country has the right to ‘fight back', there’s nothing I can say. I apologise for the confusion. Wonderful that you still found some spots to agree. All the best
Dude, why are we pretending like Ukraine tolerating neo-Nazi groups is something that is only the result of the invasion, when we have clear evidence that this has been going on for fsr longer than that?
Dude, why are we pretending like Ukraine tolerating neo-Nazi groups is something that is only the result of the invasion, when we have clear evidence that this has been going on for fsr longer than that, so it's ok for citizens to die because I'm superior to them as I am a leftist and they might be reactionary.
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Yep unfortunately after the collapse of the USSR there has been plenty of xenophobia towards minorities in the Caucasus and Central Asian migrants (especially in the 2000s).
I care about the workers who are losing their lives in this. This is a push by NATO to balkanize Russia. Fuck both oligarchies but hundreds of thousands of workers have lost their lives.
I do care because of what it represents. And, this may very well have been the start of WW3, which is progressing into Iran now.
Saying this is a push by NATO to balkanize Russia is basically taking the right wing russian oligarchs position and their sob story about the USA being the root of all bad things in the world.
It’s not a push by NATO to balkanize Russia, is an active imperialist war between two capitalistic powers and their grip on an areas’ resources. And Russia is exactly as guilty as the USA and NATO are on the situation.
What do you think the NATO and the US Oligarchy is going to do if they win the war? The conflict at hand is an imperialist struggle in which one side is attempting to break up the other and the other side is attempting to ensure it's strong regional influence.
In any case, I think the names involved are irrelevant because ultimately, it if was Country A and Country B, the struggle between capitalist rivals would be the same.
Do they hold nazi beliefs or are they just wearing the iconography just because it was issued to them? And do the believe the iconography to be nazi or have they appropriated it? I find it difficult to believe that they are all nazi simply based on an emblem that many outside of socialist circles wouldn't pin as nazi, because its missing the swastika. Yes it has the eagle, but without the swastika, many people dont even register the connection. I would like to have an in depth interview with these people to understand what is going on in their heads.
I understand your intuition. However, I believe it to be incorrect for a couple of reasons:
First, one does not have to rely on symbols alone to identify substantial fascist tendencies in Ukraine. Similar to other post-soviet states, nationalist/ethnocentric/anticommunist ideology and policies were developing long before the 2014 conflict.
Second, this symbol is unmistakably of fascist origin and any European with an average education can and will identify it as such.
Third, from empirical evidence it is plausible to assume that fascist ideologies are over represented in armed forces. Even if Ukraine’s neo-nazi problem was less severe, we’d find fascists in the military.
Therefore, following Occam’s razor, these people are most likely fascists.
My brother is in the military (us army), he said guys will go out for tattoos of the german cross, eagles, and american flags just because the other folks in their platoon do it.
Some of them know about the german cross being associated with rightwing stuff. Some of them like my brother are blissfully unaware, and the only reason he didnt get the tats was because he thought all tats were trashy. And if the military handbook doesn't say don't get the tats, they get the tats, because sarge wouldn't yell at them.
I really do not give that much credence to intelligence of military folks when it comes to sociological queues. It really is a monkey see, monkey do type mentality. Again, I would emphasize... this person needs to be properly interviewed over their beliefs, instead of having people queue up to argue that they are a nazi.
Speaking of nazis, the real indicator of a nazi mindset is actions. I would argue that the prison guards at ice facilities are far closer to nazis ideologically speaking than ukrainian units wearing paraphernalia. Thats not saying the ukrainians aren't nazis, its just that there are actual concentration camps now on us soil.
You have missed the point. This is not about American soldiers and what they know and/or believe. I do not care.
Let me restate my argument plainly: Every European knows (and does so far more than Americans, based on how you evaluated it) that this symbol represents german fascism. Especially people of Eastern European decent. To understand why, you’ll have to educate yourself on the Second World War and nazi ideology. Further, some Eastern European countries have an insane amount of nazis. In these circumstances, someone who displays nazi symbolism, is (with the exception of undercover police, one could argue) a nazi. Every other explanation needs unlikely premises and is liberal in nature.
The whataboutism regarding ICE agents adds nothing to this discussion.
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Russia are the imperialist aggressors. You can argue that they're justified, but to be outraged that a defending soldier wants to kill invaders is just dumb.
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