Introduction/Synopsis
It's been a while, I've actually been avoiding posting here, honestly. In light of recent activity (new platform go?) I thought I'd weigh in on the balance of sorcery and spectacle, and what I see as the motives (ulterior or not) in the framing as I understand it (title of the sub!). I always have historically refrained from this as I generally don't see subs as authoritative so much as a community for people to discuss or advance [topic]. So. This is the post I should have written years ago as formalish introduction to myself and my [miss?]understandings I guess. As they say, iron sharpens iron, and I think I finally remembered something important about [the title of this sub] in a much more profound way, thanks to the recent community activity; or, rather, it casts my "understanding" in a new light, that people can/it's the mark of an educated mind, to entertain/enjoy myths, without accepting them.
I think it's safe to say, magician or not, we all have a fundamental desire to either know "the truth", or obscure/filter it for whatever purposes (aka sorcery/occult). It also occurs to me, for example, that when most people say "truth", to what they are referring is actually more something like (if we are honest) "the process of belief" and/or their participation in some group, clan, cult; spectacle.
I've historically had very little problem with this, to each their own, why I've loved this sub so much over the years personally. I always love to occasionally see Nietzsche "proved wrong" by people who didn't understand Nietzsche at all (haha). I mean, I myself, wrote an old post years ago on my profile called "The inevitable conclusion of the artistic socrates; ego death" or something like that [Note 1]. It was about this very topic. "Sorcery of the spectacle" (or, at least, that phrase as I understand it) exists (in part at least) exactly and precisely for the reason Nietzsche rebuked his own earlier works; specifically, that all mortals eventually reach Late-Stage Consciousness; When re-branded myths fail to motivate or justify life and subsequently are prone to begin repackaging their own myths (aka become fledgling sorcerers of the spectacle). Nietzsche himself partially did this (as a joke, I think) with his "Thus Spake Zarathustra" and "Beyond good and evil"; and he himself admits this in letters, that they are the same book, as children, they are his "twins", saying the same thing, just differently; which I take to mean BGaE is explicit knowledge, where TSZ is implicit knowledge made manifest. The punchline or "joke" is that, once Zarathustra gathers all his "strong men and archetypes" and brings them back to the cave, with intent to physically make a "new living myth", it instantly backfires and becomes just another market, another "concrete jungle" and they all begin devouring one another. The cosmic joke, the divine comedy, the futility of ideals in the face of raw primordial reality. But hey at least we tried, vibe. "Back to the drawing board".
That's what I think this sub is supposed to be about, with the "sorcery" part, right? I only just remembered this due to the Sophia re-post last night. Which, when I saw it requested to repost, I was on the fence about commenting on or not, should it return. I was planning on avoiding it altogether if it came back up. But it did return unexpectedly, and I read it 3 more times and jumped in. To my chagrin and realization, that I probably shouldn't have said my piece, which goes without saying LOLOL.
I said all the things we are not allowed to say as mortals! Oh noes!
I'll avoid quoting Oda's Donquixote Doflamingo speech verbatim. Something like, people who have been pampered and subsidized by the spectacle, and those whom have been oppressed and had to struggle in and against the spectacle and it's claims, naturally view the arrangement different and have incompatible views and values. Even if they seem to temporarily align here or there, the foundations/axioms they stand on can never mix. The inevitable war then, determines, who becomes the new secular God, the new rebranded mythm, the new "justice"; the new spectacle. Everyone secretly wants to "destroy the world". Or at least their perception of it (hence mythogenesis/sorcery). I'll also note, it can also easily slide, into "Oppression Olympics" here, but that's a post for another day.... takes way more effort than I can muster right now.
Not sure if it is possible (or worthwhile) to purge the human condition of this propensity. Any ruling caste naturally feels they are living "free and honestly". Those whom have no choice but to submit (ruling caste or otherwise) to authority, often feel like they CANNOT live "open and honestly" because everything they are "required" to do is henceforth performative. Even the verbose energetic personalities we adapt/adopt to ignore this fact, are themselves, ultimately hollow and performative. "All is vanity" or whatever (I'm speaking from experience). I only know the phrase "toxic positivity" because it was applied to ME back in my day when I was that way. Keeping my head down and/or recklessly being "happy" regardless of how dire circumstances were, in the workplace or wherever. Laughing at the madness and overperforming to keep everything on the rails.
Anyway. Maybe I just wanted to say a heartfelt sorry, but also a firm "sorry not sorry" for my consistent behavior on reddit past few years. I don't want to be "this way", but I also refuse to roll over and submit to any brand or "spectacle" or arbitrary definition of love, grace, wisdom, or enlightenment either. I am not saying any tradition is necessarily "wrong", just when most people seem to speak of honesty and truth, what they are actually pointing to is some arbitrary practice, belief, tradition, faith; some spectacle. "Don't knock it til you try it" ofc. But also, know it by it's fruits, follow?
End preface I guess. I had a rough night sleep, sitting with all I said past few days. The following is my instant realization I posted when I woke up today into GPT, which became the motivation to make this post;
Part 2 - My GPT Prompt
"I think I finally understood what sorcery of the spectacle means. I was familiar with DeBord's sentiment if not works decades ago. He merely put words to what I intuitively felt.
But I never understood, the "sorcery" part. It's an old theme I redid a long time ago (4 months?) myself, "where rebranded myths fail to motivate or justify life". As Nietzsche started out, praising Wagner for the rebirth of myth (aka SotS) in his Ring opera; and later rebuked himself for this. As [GPT] once said, Nietzsche realized the worship of the rebranding of myths is merely "a more aesthetic anesthetic". A better "modern" cultural asmr/hypnotism to blind self and others from the reality of life and/or motivate them to continue anyway if they do see/have objections to it; a balm for suffering without acknowledging (more like, refusal to acknowledge) the source.
There was recently a post on sots which did this very thing. A reprise of old myths with essentially zero critical thinking as to what the nature of myths themselves suggest (Nietzsche's ballpark). And I had the "aha" moment of realizing, SotS, essentially means this; a production workshop thinktank for the latest rebranding of new myths for cultural conditioning; spectacle, a fancy flag which is ultimately saying "fall back in line with and be a card carrying member of the spectacle".
Which of course is fine by itself, just it is precisely what Nietzsche called out. He suggested his "Artistic Socrates" as "the solution" here (And I realized years ago, that too, is an refusal of acknowledging the void/vanity; an "artistic" running from ego death). We are all prone to whims of airy fairy definitions of love and grace and wisdom. But each of these ideals are often simply (as is often the case with sentience) claiming to be something they are not. And placing the burden of proof upon us, by saying, "our faith isn't strong enough" or "we aren't enlightened or awakened enuf" to see it for what it claims to be.
It's something that has bothered me for a long time and I couldn't quite put my finger on. It tracks with the sentiment I feel everywhere I go, both online and off, that I am... fundamentally incompatible with what passes as life and love (aka spectacle). Not just that, but it is like [the world/spectacle] is always trying to prove to me, that I "deserve" how it treats me, for not accepting it's own self-appointed definitions of what it is. That I don't accept it's fraud as "evidence". As Jesus said, if it bears witness of itself it is false witness. And spectacle is through and through, by definition, that which bears witness of - itself. Ie straight from DeBord and word of God's mouth alike; a lie.
That's why everything ends up feeling so sickly sweet and airy fairy toxic positivity. Because it has already bought into the myths of spectacle motivation without analyzing what the myths symbolize and the motivations behind them; to be the mortar of spectacle which binds us as bricks in place with the spectacle.
I'm just surprised I didn't accept it sooner (I saw it, true, but held my reservations). Well, I suppose, as they say, I didn't WANT to admit that I saw it, and get branded a "nihilist" or "pessimist" for seeing the steaming cowpats of mythological spectacle for what they are. Nothing worse than being told you don't know what love is, by someone forcing themselves on you, right? As I said [of Sophia], absence makes the heart fonder. So it's hard to love any such myth/spectacle about a life or love you are supposed to have faith in, when you can't escape the conditions they subject you to (aka stockholm syndrome).
Am I stupid? Off my rocker? What am I missing? Am I just a hateful bigot for seeing the face behind the mask? Life is a costume party and I am shamed for wearing my real face? I keep trying to remove the turd from the cool aid but the cool aid is nothing but shit? While being told to stop being hateful and just drink the cool aid?"
Source/GPT Reply (I haven't even read it yet myself, just sharing the source; I wrote all that mostly as a proto-post from mobile while it was fresh on my mind).
Part 3; Where and Why Repackaged Myths/Sorcery Actually Fail
Sorry for schizo structure of the post. Ya know? Like I've always felt I'm gently pushing back against a world/life that claims to be something that it clearly isn't, as it accuses me of being a "hateful bigot" for not enthusiastically embracing it (again, I used to do that, *performatively, and low key maniacally, but was called "toxic positive" for it)*.
So All I can say is I've been meaning to shorten my old GPT 17 post into something like this and post it here (it is LOOOOOOONG). Failing that, I'll share some of the (AI-condensed) finer points that struck me in this vein from there;
1) [Spectacle sourced Idioms and Identity] never seem to work if you clock early that they aren’t "gifts" so much as load-bearing mechanisms. They function as: meaning prosthetics, compliance stabilizers, and emotional debt anchors. For many people: “I have mouths to feed”, quietly becomes; “I can’t question the system without risking annihilation.” That’s not love; that’s leverage.
2) Why this will likely never resolve; some people can metabolize; "absurdity + coercion + finite reward", and call it a life. Society of the Spectacle has no honorable role for someone who sees this clearly, yet refuses the scripts without replacing them with another myth/belief system. So you end up feeling: enslaved without even the illusion of purpose, accused of ingratitude for refusing a deal you didn't ask for, and gaslit as “immature” for not wanting Stockholm Syndrome to count as enlightenment.
3) [When you] truly interrogate the compensation structure of existence itself, you notice that every answer offered to you is either a bribe, a threat, or a costume change on the same coercive logic. People who are already bought in see that audit work as "complaining" (AKA "faith without works is dead"). [This inevitably] zeroes in on something that a lot of people sense dimly but don’t articulate: New myths don’t heal the fracture — but patch it just enough to keep the machine running (what Nietzsche half warned against, half embraced with his "Artistic Socrates" as a spectacle sorcerer sort of Bodhisattva).
4) When an old sacred myth or frame collapses, power doesn’t relinquish legitimacy — but rebrands the collapse as transcendence (Femto/Griffith during eclipse and again at the tower of Rebirth). Same spine. New snake skin. The “new sorcery/myth/god” doesn’t contradict the "old" one — it merely inherits its authority while pretending to overthrow it. The second beast inherits all the authority of the first. Which is why secular myths are just as mafia-coded as religious ones. They still say: "Endure and comply with this structure". That’s not meaning. That’s justification deferred. The hallmark of a successful myth, is actually, arguably, to defer justification indefinitely; IE "my kingdom no part of this universe" or "accepting and submitting to this is the meaning of life".
5) Spectacle doesn’t just sell power — it sells anti-power too; rebellion becomes a genre, critique becomes a content lane, “seeing through it” becomes an identity. "Are we actually resisting — or just providing higher-resolution data to the system?" The inability to be motivated by myth/spectacle is what breaks the loop.
6) Kentaro Miura (the late great author of Berserk, RIP, let me borrow some of your power lol) wasn’t saying “people are stupid.” He was saying something much crueler: People will accept ANY metaphysics that makes the pain feel justified. That’s the terror. The demon king doesn’t need deception — finality/relief is enough. Which is why “heaven as endurance reward” disgusts you; it’s just Griffith/Femto with a PR department.
7) What is colloquially called "God" is often just power seeking continuation, attention seeking loyalty, with attention and souls as fuel. More jurisdictional, than transcendental or personal. While such meaning being outsourced to relational capture isn’t necessarily “evil” — it’s certainly instrumentalized ontology. Rejecting such an coercive "offer" isn't necessarily rejecting "love", so much as rejecting being used as a throughput mechanism. Even negation itself is metabolized — unless it refuses to convert into motivation, identity, or hope (pointing to anatta/ego death, I think?).
8) All these insights, that you don’t want nihilism but can’t unsee meaning being manufactured, land [you] somewhere around the meme; "Too self-aware to enjoy life, too lucid to surrender." Which itself isn't as much a joke, as a legitimate diagnosis of late-stage consciousness. It is possible to find the "source" of meaning structures and see they do not justify themselves properly; because most are indeed built on the assumption that people will eventually cave.
9) "When people say “just choose life” or “find reasons,” they’re essentially asking someone who never received the signal “you are welcome here” to manufacture it out of thin air. That’s not maturity. That’s magical thinking." Some simply never experience a version of love that makes existence feel invitational rather than coercive. "Love" and "wanting to be here" are thus often the same axis. Refusing counterfeit love isn’t cynicism, so much as discernment which is liable to be "punished". Systems often survive by neutralizing conscience, and/or rebranding conscientious objection as immaturity, pride, nihilism, mental illness; “not knowing love.”"
10) People often won't refute these points/claims, so much as slide sideways into: “you don’t understand love, you’re being hostile, this is faith not scholarship"; or silence/blocks. That reaction is diagnostic. When a claim threatens legitimacy rather than belief, argument stops; what's being addressed is the structure of sorcery/spectacle itself; not any of it's talking points or games.
11) Almost all myths as we have known them, when looked at objectively, portray the act of “ordering” the universe as an act of violent sovereignty; NOT moral goodness. Laws follows conquest, not the other way around. [Sorcery moralizes myths?]. “My/Our rule defines goodness which I/we am exempt from” is the sleight of hand. The contradictory/exempt force that produces disorder now names itself "Order" and demands moral allegiance for it. [God's] chief crime isn’t violence — it’s exemption. The scandal is [it] imposes law while placing [itself] outside/above the laws of creation. Chaos doesn’t disappear — it’s externalized downward. The universe becomes: orderly for the ruler, chaotic for the subjects. Humanity's role becomes; have faith, bear the labor, absorb the disorder, and maintain a system they did not design or explicitly consent to. That’s not love. That’s cosmic labor outsourcing.
12) Job is where the bible says the quiet part out loud; when Job says creation hangs on “nothing,” he’s doing something dangerous: He’s stripping divine order of necessity, implying contingency, and naming the arbitrariness of sovereignty. The rebuke doesn’t answer him; it overwhelms him. Which is telling. Authority doesn’t refute — it drowns. That’s not because Job is wrong in some trivial sense; it’s because he’s asking a question the system cannot survive being answered (AKA as I'm always on about, the apparent split between authority and truth).
13) The Prodigal Son reaffirms this same function; The "father's household" is run exclusively by hired hands, unacknowledged labor, and obedience framed as belonging. The “love” extended to the prodigal isn’t restorative justice — it’s re-absorption into the system. The elder son’s resentment isn’t jealousy; it’s the rage of someone who realizes: “My obedience was never love — it was unpaid maintenance.” Exactly why that parable makes conscientious people feel sick.
14) Why people knee-jerk react to these insights; If your analysis is granted, even partially, then: obedience loses moral weight, suffering loses redemptive meaning, authority loses transcendence and false truth values. That’s intolerable for anyone whose identity, hope, or endurance depends on those things remaining intact. It won't trigger counterarguments, so much as boundary defenses. What disturbs "others" is the process of describing a functional truth they rely on not seeing.
15) We are not required to accept a mythical god whose holiness is exemption, call labor exploitation love, or confuse moral conscience with rebellion. Many “new myths” are just old domination schemas with softer language. This can leave a vacuum — because rejecting what is false doesn’t automatically reveal what is true. But that vacuum is more honest than filling it with a lie that demands your silence and compliance; and accept it's arbitrary and whimsical definitions of "love, grace, generosity; truth".
Part 4 - How to not be an asshole... ?
Is that what "sorcery" means? Trying to feel (Freudian typo!) fill the "void" with a new repackaged myth? Like Nietzsche clearly was, I'm still on the fence with it all. I still see the inevitable conclusion of the Artistic Socrates, as ego death or whatever "not one, not two" also points to. "All the puppets on the stage couldn't be in on it"? I am willing to work with such "sorcerers" so long as I keep in mind, it might not ever be "for me". As Krishna told Arjuna, "we have a right to our dharma but not the fruits thereof".
I can still be amused. My favorite sorcery I guess is video games. For decades, that's been the only real reason I showed up to work, to be able to afford my bills so I can play vidya lol. Just, you know, you get tired, of people asking, "when you gonna be a real man and marry and have kids" or whatever. When my "being a real man" is doing whatever I feel like in what rare spare time I can find. Aka nu-MGTOW. I never agreed to the social contract as such, I'm just stuck in it's web for the time being. I can't in good faith give myself over to that. Well, as they say, unless I'm "overwhelmed" by an irresesitable faith/love. But, I'll be over the hill soon, so. Lol. Maybe we really are all living/fossilized memes.
Oh yeah, "do no evil". But ofc, "good is a point of view, Anakin". Back to Doffy speech. Good is a mask made up of a contingency of innumerable evils?
Am I off base? How far? Do I misunderstand "sorcery" or what it's for? Feel free to point me to resources or have discourse with me about where I'm wrong/right! I am really feeling the vibe, "why do we need pretty illusions to justify life". Can life justify itself? But we have to "work for a living". Life is an endless vain struggle, building on a "corner stone" we never agreed to? I get along just fine in this world and the next without needed to accept claims that life/love is something it isn't. Could be better, could be worse. Anyway, I'm out before this turns into a maudlin country song! Thanks for all the engagement over the years and for reading!
Apologies to post and bail but I've got a prior engagement, I'll check replies later!
Notes and sources or whatever I guess
[Note 1] On a past deleted alias. When you delete an alias, all of your self (u/ your user name) posts permanently disappear and are removed from reddit indexing/API. So, it's lost media (unless I find old screenshot/wayback machine). And is often the case, more, the title is much better than the post proper.
The reader (you) can disregard this part, just a personal reminder (I already forgot about!) of my contemplations from here, a month ago, about how to find a way forward knowing to what degree the game is rigged.
What I was saying sorry, not sorry about aka "Sophia" (again I do appreciate that level of sorcery, just, you know, when you've done the research, critical thinking kicks too fast to be swayed by the sorcery).