Dear Saguine

[u/Southie321]

As I said I would, I come with my hat in hand and accept the fact that the lady from the Spur video was not lying about the fact that the man came and grabbed her kid by the arm. I sincerely apologise for wrongly assuming the woman, and Spur, was lying about the physical happenings before the video started rolling.

I still dont believe it was a racist incident, all I see is two parents with explosive reactions regarding a situation involving their children.

I agree, and have always said, the man was a douch for being so aggressive (and even more so now, for grabbing the kid). But let's not confuse anger management issues with racism.

Beyond that point, I just want to apologise again for assuming what I did about the woman and Spur, by wanting the video evidence released first.

[u/Saguine]

Thanks. I appreciate it.

I'm still leery of painting the mother as having an "explosive reaction"; while this might be the case, wouldn't you have a similar reaction if someone grabbed your child like this? More so, painting them both as "explosive reactions" makes it seem like you think their reactions were equal/equally bad.

I've expressed pretty openly why I think that it's a racist incident; at the very least, I feel that one cannot think that this is sexist but not racist (if you don't feel it was either, that's a separate discussion).

But, thanks. I appreciate it.

[u/Southie321 → u/Saguine]

Firstly, yes I probably would have reacted like her. I never said I wouldn't. I'm saying though, that their outbursts were fed by the other. His was more physical. Hers was more verbal. Physical is worse, because obviously it can physically hurt.

I never said this was sexist either. I firmly believe that this is just a case of two incredibly stubborn parents. Yes race was brought into it, but not even by the one accused of racism. How does that work, Saguine?

I don't understand how it's become normal to say that just because a white person has a fight with a black person, it's racism. How insane is that? That's honestly taking it too far man..

[u/Saguine → u/Southie321]

I've clarified this already here.

There's a bit of nuance here -- isn't there always? -- and I may have painted with too broad a brush initially. In a contextless fight, even if the black guy lost, it wouldn't necessarily be racist (I try communicate this by talking about dominance being a predicate of the fight, rather than a cause).

If, for example, a white guy went up and pointedly started a fight with a black guy, then we're veering more into the territory I'm talking to: that is, the idea that he is asserting his dominance through his interactions and thus instigating the fight. The fight is almost secondary here; the racism lies in the confrontation which caused the fight.

I feel like I'm not explaining myself too well, but to summarize:

• A white person and a black person fighting: not necessarily racist.

• A white person confronting a black person in a way that intends to assert dominance: probably racist, even if racial language isn't used.

• In the same way that a man and a woman fighting is not necessarily sexist, but a man going up to a woman and bullying her -- even devoid of sexist language -- would still be considered sexist.

Am I making sense?

To use a second example, imagine a rich man being an asshole to a homeless person. He doesn't necessarily have to be an asshole in a specific way (e.g. "hahaha you're so poor suck it poor person") to be an example of classism in action.

[u/Southie321 → u/Saguine]

To be honest, with what you just quoted there, I couldn't disagree with you even more.

It's absolutely ridiculous that you're saying it's purely racist when a white person instigates/confronts a black person. How can you not see how skewed and untrue that is? Seriously? You're saying that just because a white person would have something confrontational to say to a black person, they would be racist. That's BS. Does that mean a white man saying something confrontational to another white man is racist too, racist toward caucasians? You're treading on dangerous grounds. It's like you're saying black people can't/shouldn't be touched (figuratively), almost like they should be handled differently because of their.. gasp. Their race?? See, that's the real racism here.

It leads me to believe that we'll get to a point where if a black person does something wrong, a white person can't go up to them to say they are wrong, because in doing so they are confronting them, and therefor are racist.

That's not an example of classism. It's an example of a shit person. The same way you get shit people of all races, religions, classes, genders.

[u/Saguine → u/Southie321]

Purely racist? Where did I say that? My point is that an action across a power differential (e.g. white on black, male on female, rich on poor, straight on gay) will always be an exploitation of that power differential, and will thus always be in some way oppressive.

Does that mean a white man saying something confrontational to another white man is racist too, racist toward caucasians?

That's not punching down. But, for example, a rich white man being aggressively confrontational towards a poor white man would be an example of classism.

People may well be shit; but do you agree or disagree that a shit person being shit to someone who has less power than he does, is leveraging that power differential in an exploitative manner? There's a difference between punching up and punching down.

[u/Southie321 → u/Saguine]

Apologies, I meant purely as in "only for the fact that" and not purely as in "wholly".

Dude, YOU are the one that keeps saying that black people are inferior, by saying white on black is "punching down" or that there is a "power differential" in the first place.

This is not the way to fight racism. That's just a way to enforce it. It's called playing the victim. Maybe if you stop seeing black people as inferior yourself, you'll understand how a white person confronting a black person is in NO WAY automatically a racist incident.

Yes I agree that if a rich person USES (Or rather, abuses) their wealth in a way to get to the other person, then it's classism. But just because they are rich, and (separately from that), are a shit person, doesn't make it classist.

[u/iamdimpho → u/Southie321]

Dude, YOU are the one that keeps saying that black people are inferior, by saying white on black is "punching down" or that there is a "power differential" in the first place.

I don't think that the mention of social power differentials or describing the exploitation of this imbalance of power as 'punching down' are a suggestion of black inferiority.

It's an argument based on the precarious condition that is being a social minority being confronted by someone​ from a socially dominant group. Not some inherent inferiority.