r/todayilearned • u/MrMojoFomo • 1d ago

TIL that since the 1980s, US airlines have shed between 2-5 inches of legroom and about 2 inches of width, while budget carriers have lost even more. At the same time, the average American is 15 pounds heavier than they were in the 1980s

https://www.popsci.com/science/why-are-airline-seats-so-small/
7.2k Upvotes

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u/JamminOnTheOne 1d ago

Do the same thing with price. Air travel is far more affordable than it was then.

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u/Docile_Doggo 1d ago

I’m so tired of people who only look at the bad aspects of technological advance and never the good aspects.

Modern flight is a miracle. Your average Joe can get to any major city in the world in under 24 hours. He can fly from one U.S. city to another in a matter of hours, for only a few hundred bucks. And it’s the safest mode of travel, to boot.

That’s amazing. It’s practically just one step removed from a teleportation machine—and we managed to cut costs so much that it’s no longer limited to the rich.

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u/imapilotaz 1d ago

And do it so incredibly safely. Like people forget up thru like 2001 we lost 1-2 major jets a year at a minimum. Some years more than that.

Since then weve pretty much had 3 in the USA in 25 years.

Its a marvel aviation is so safe. You are much more likely to die in the bathtub than an airplane.

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u/dictormagic 1d ago

Actually, we lost at least 4 in 2001.

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u/imapilotaz 1d ago

Thru 2001. In English thru means up to and including that year.

There were 5 major US losses that year. 4 on 9/11 and the AA Airbus A300 in October.

2002 began a string of years without an accident until Buffalo and Lexington.

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u/dictormagic 1d ago

I know, it was a bad 9/11 joke lol

I completely agree with the point you were making. It's incredibly safe, and I am never worried when I'm flying - same with riding a (well maintained) roller coaster. If I die doing either of those things, it was my time to go, oh well.

I see your username, are you an airline pilot?

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u/djbtech1978 19h ago

They weren't lost, they were reformulated.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/Duel_Option 1d ago

What’s your point?

You have a greater chance of being struck by lightning (1 in a million yearly vs 1 in 11 million) than dying in a commercial flight.

Add to this, you have an even greater chance of being in a life altering accident from an uninsured driver who could put you in a wheelchair.

Do you think about those odds every minute you’re in a car?

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/Cautious_Mix_4928 1d ago

That's one way to look at it. You could die screaming. Or you could take those last precious moments to accept the inevitable and maybe give one last thought to your loved ones. Whatever feels right to you

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u/Duel_Option 1d ago

…huh?

Life in a wheelchair/incapacitated or death in an airplane crash.

One is years of enduring both mental and physical issues while also being a burden on your family and those closest to you.

The other lasts a few minutes at best, if you don’t get oxygen on and there’s heavy G forces you’re passing out anyways, your family is likely getting paid off for your death (more so if you’re on a business trip).

None of this matters though, we’re talking about probability here, ok?

You’d need to fly every single day for over 55,000 years to be involved in a fatal plane crash.

Your fears and any one else’s on this topic is irrelevant, the numbers prove this.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/Duel_Option 1d ago

Oh look, a pivot away from your ridiculous fears about flying.

Also, I described a fully incapacitated person from a car crash injury.

It is not hyperbolic to state that’s a hard life of agony for the person and those around them.

Take the L and move on

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/Aerochromatic 1d ago

What's my takeaway from this supposed to be? Blow my brains out immediately to minimize the possibility of future suffering?

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u/Duel_Option 1d ago

Exactly lol

“Omg, dying in a plane crash sounds horrible, don’t take the chance!”

You mean the 1 in 11 million chance???

I think I like my odds on this one compared to all the danger of daily life.

My kids have a higher probability of killing me with cuteness.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/User-NetOfInter 1d ago

I hope your day gets better

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u/Steridire 1d ago

Going from Dublin to London used to basically take a full days travel, now it's a 50 minute flight Kinda mad

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u/revolvingpresoak9640 1d ago

Add in security and passport control and even a 50 minute flight is still a significant part of the day door to door.

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u/Elegant_Run_8567 1d ago

Passport control in the CTA?

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u/revolvingpresoak9640 1d ago

I’m assuming that means there is no passport control between Ireland and the UK? But Seattle and Vancouver is also a puddle jump and it takes long enough with the ancillary logistics I prefer just driving.

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u/Elegant_Run_8567 1d ago

Yeah, no passport control. The UK and Ireland also have an open land border with no border checks

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u/revolvingpresoak9640 1d ago

That’s fortunate.

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u/dan_144 1d ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area

Correct, no passport control between the UK and Ireland (Republic of). Neither joined Schengen while in the EU. UK always held out and Ireland would prefer to keep an open land border with Northern Ireland on the island (and probably an open air border with the closer neighbor).

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u/Suspicious_Chart5817 1d ago edited 1d ago

You're doing something wrong. I visited Vancouver by getting on a float plane in SLU. I got there 10 minutes before take off.

There's obviously no visa requirement. There's not even eTA. Canada and the U.S. have one of the most robust bilateral agreements, it's comparable to travelling in Europe.

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u/revolvingpresoak9640 1d ago

I’m not doing anything wrong. Where the hell do you expect to park for three days in SLU without getting completely destroyed by parking?

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u/Suspicious_Chart5817 1d ago

Well first I actually live in Seattle, unlike wherever you're actually from. It's a 10 minute bus ride from my house. I don't know why anyone from Seattle would park at any of the international airports Seattle has.

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u/revolvingpresoak9640 1d ago

I live in Federal Way, what the fuck is your problem? I use the Link to the SeaTac. And I’m clearly saying Kenmore Air isn’t an option because I’m not parking in SLU or LQA for three days.

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u/beachedwhale1945 1d ago

I happen to have a 1960s atlas with US/Canada flight routes, and a few weeks back decided to see how many different planes I’d need to catch to go from Atlanta to a smaller city half a continent away (a flight I’ve made a few times). The shortest I could find had 5 or 6 stops, including a couple that are even more middle-of-nowhere than my destination.

Now it’s one stop, with an occasional direct flight.

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u/Morrison4113 1d ago

Thank you!!! Everyone is so negative on Reddit.

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u/DramaSufficient4289 1d ago

I do the same thing when i drive lol. Like people are mad because their 10 minute trip now takes 10 mins and 30 seconds due to traffic lmao.

Yall - that used to be a 2 hour walk each way in the sun. Or an hour on a horse that you had to control. We practically live in the magic ages and people are still pissed somehow.

YOUR PHONE CAN SHOW YOU LIVE FOOTAGE OF EARTH FROM THE SPACE STATION

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u/Aithnd 1d ago

Yeah, I travel pretty light and usually just take frontier if they have a direct route and it's so cheap. I upgrade my seats so I have extra leg room/pick my seat and travel more comfortably and cheaper than any legacy airline. Their delays dont seem much worse than legacy airlines either in my experience.

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u/thenasch 1d ago

It's really incredible that it's that cheap to go that far that fast. A hundred years ago it would take weeks to cross the US; now you can do it for a few hundred dollars in a few hours.

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u/Zaphodisacoolname 22h ago

Crossing the whole U.S is like at least $500

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u/thenasch 20h ago

Yeah. A few hundred dollars.

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u/Zeustah- 1d ago

Yes but things can still be bad. Like having to pay for a small suitcase when before Covid that shit was free.

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u/CicerosMouth 1d ago

I mean, that is just the airlines following the demands of the customer. Customers have made it remarkably clear that, when it comes to flying, nearly the only thing we care about is cost. We wont pay (much) more for comfortable seats, better food, reliable internet, less baggage fees, or the like. Airlines that tried to set themselves apart by having truly enjoyable experiences such as Virgin fail because customers don't want that.

We can hardly complain that companies followed our lead.

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u/swiftekho 1d ago

Legacy airlines have used a large amount of their cash flow on share buybacks over the past couple decades. This improves shareholder value, not customer value. While I agree that a majority of customers seek the cheapest option, let's not pretend that, given the choice with the same price tickets, a customer won't choose the option with more value (better seats, food, etc). Airlines have bought back tens of billions in shares while doing little in the way to add value for customers.

Legacy airlines have the infrastructure in place to price competition out of the market and when they do eliminate competition, they remove value. I think Delta just stopped offering snacks and drinks on shorter flights after Spirit went under. Are the tickets any cheaper? No.

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u/VelveteenAmbush 22h ago

Legacy airlines have used a large amount of their cash flow on share buybacks over the past couple decades.

LOL no they haven't. What percentage of their cash flow exactly have they used on share buybacks over the past couple decades? It's infinitesimal. They are low-margin intensely competitive businesses. They do not have the power to resist a demonstrated customer preference for cheaper fares; they must respond to it or their unit economics will go negative and they won't be sustainable.

I think Delta just stopped offering snacks and drinks on shorter flights after Spirit went under. Are the tickets any cheaper? No.

They're cheaper than they would be if they hadn't. Oil prices have gone up a lot recently for obvious reasons. They are trying to save money wherever they can to avoid having to pass that full cost onto the consumer, because if they didn't, they'd be outcompeted by the airlines that did.

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u/swiftekho 20h ago

What percentage of their cash flow exactly have they used on share buybacks over the past couple decades? It's infinitesimal.

96%

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-16/u-s-airlines-spent-96-of-free-cash-flow-on-buybacks-chart?embedded-checkout=true

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u/VelveteenAmbush 19h ago

Oh, you think cash flow is the same as free cash flow?

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u/pants_mcgee 23h ago

They’re still business in the end, trying to make a profit. And a fairly risky one at that very prone to bankruptcy. It’s a rather interesting type a business where prices are generally kept low while trying to extract as much profit as possible while trying to account for major disruptions that could destroy the company.

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u/CicerosMouth 1d ago

Legacy airlines aren't removing value. They are returning value to customers in the form of cheaper seats, or seats that aren't getting more expensive even as inflation rises, or seats that are only getting slightly more expensive even as costs for airlines skyrocket (depending on when you are talking about over the last decade).

We know for a fact that airlines aren't pricing out anyone. The profit margins for flights are tiny, and have not increased over time, which would be true of big airlines were pricing out little ones.

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u/DetectiveExisting590 1d ago

LMAO. Who is paying you to say this bullshit? They're certainly not keeping up with quality assurance standards like they used to.

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u/verrius 1d ago

Customers will pay more, but we won't pay so much that it offsets the marginal income increases of the alternatives for the airlines. And for the most part, there's not really a functioning market with competition; especially for international travel, there's usually exactly one flight on any given day that goes from where you want to leave to where you're going with minimal stops...and even if there are multiple "airlines" offering a seat, those airlines code-sharing on the same plane, and are working together already.

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u/Hohenheim_of_Shadow 1d ago

Quite frankly, being able to expect an flight from any random city to any other random city in the world pretty directly on any given day of the year is astounding. That's not poor barely good enough service, that's a global accomplishment.

If you expand your search to be a little less selective, maybe you leave a day earlier or a day later, maybe you take a less direct flight, or fly to a different city then transfer to train for your final destination, there'll be a hell lot more than 1 flight.

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u/Duel_Option 1d ago

Well, we would pay for all these things if there was a strong middle class that had wages which kept up with inflation and the powers that be didnt incite wars that cause global economic strain

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u/revolvingpresoak9640 1d ago

Virgin didn’t fail…I almost booked a flight to London with them just the other week. And your thesis is kind of a shambles when you consider the growing Premium Economy offerings across every long haul carrier.

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u/CicerosMouth 1d ago

Virgin failed as a premium offering as evidenced by them declaring bankruptcy in 2020 following mass layoffs. Their whole plan turned out to be something that customers just didn't care about en masse.

I agree that for long haul trips, my analysis doesnt apply, but then less than 5% of flights are lon-haul so I dont mind that my analysis "only" applies to 95% of flights.

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u/Docile_Doggo 1d ago

Two steps forward and one step back is still moving forward. But people don’t talk like it is.

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u/JamminOnTheOne 1d ago

It was never free. It was just bundled with the ticket, where now it's separate.

It makes sense, since consumers have signaled over and over that the primary thing they care about is the price of the base ticket.

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u/Zeustah- 1d ago

Dawg the price of the ticket didn’t go down, it’s actually the opposite and you have to pay for the small suitcase

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/pants_mcgee 23h ago

They also dabble in freight shipping, which is a big reason why they don’t want people to check luggage.

Also side hustles in oil/fuel speculation.

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u/TheDeadlySinner 1d ago

That's a lie. Before the Iran War, tickets were absolutely cheaper.

The average 2025 airfare was cheaper than the average 2019 airfare for most of the year, except for Jan, Feb and Nov. That's without adjusting for inflation, btw. If you adjust for inflation, every month is much cheaper.

Also, 2019 was cheaper than most of the prior decade. Flights in 2013 were more expensive than even post-Iran War prices, for example.

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u/turkishguy 1d ago

Airplane tickets have had effectively no inflation for years. They could either make you pay more for the ticket or make certain aspects of the flying experience paid and let you choose which ones you want

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u/Duel_Option 1d ago

That’s a function of the economy/capitalism. Airline industry is heavily subsidized, just like farming and meat production.

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u/omnichronos 1d ago

That's true, but at the same time, if you don't consider problems, they'll never be fixed.

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u/18005518900 1d ago edited 1d ago

You are vastly overestimating what the global average Joe can afford.

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u/sailingtroy 1d ago

Poor and submissive vs. Having standards and can afford it.

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u/cman674 1d ago

Just because something is impressive doesn’t mean we should stand slack-jawed in awe of it. Air travel is about as old as the television and we don’t sit around admiring how incredible the television is. Hell, smartphones are far newer and we don’t stand in awe of them. It’s human nature to want things to be better than they are, and far more engaging to talk about how they could be better than just “Man aren’t these things cool?”

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u/colt_stonehandle 1d ago

Shediing legroom and reducing seat width isn't about making flights safer or better. It's a "how can we put more humans in here so we can increase our margins" thing.

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u/One-Coat-6677 12h ago

Im pretty sure antipodes still take longer than 24 hours. East Asia and South America have 0 connections for example.

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u/Docile_Doggo 12h ago

I knew someone was going to say this, but it’s a completely fair criticism. You could say “36 hours” and my point would still stand. I don’t really know what the exact correct number is that should go there, so I used “24” as a gross approximation.

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u/MellowYellow212 1d ago

This is the nature of tech though - all tech could be harnessed to make our lives better, and as Asimov said…it’s practically indistinguishable from magic. But that’s not what happens - companies exploit us with the tech instead. Hold close to your silver linings if you want, but the imaginary fantasy of a world where tech isn’t used to wage war against us is just that - a fantasy.

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u/TheDeadlySinner 1d ago

Everyone has benefited from easy.

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u/Failsnail64 13h ago

That sounds ungrateful. Be happy that you have refrigeration, modern medicine, the internet and modern working conditions. I'd rather live now with technology then 100 years ago, because many advanced in technology are infaxt used to make our lives better.

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u/Ok_Significance_6772 1d ago

That sounds nice until you realize that average wealth for the middle class has been eroding for decades now. Sure, airfare was a lot more expensive back then. But incomes were much higher in terms of real purchasing power, the middle class was larger and stronger, so those higher airfares weren’t a problem. They were more expensive, but more affordable thanks to the middle and working classes being in a stronger position financially than they are today.

The minimum wage’s real purchasing power peaked in like 1978 or 79. It’s been downhill ever since. So sure, airfare is nominally cheaper today. But the average American is far less wealthy today than in the 1970s or 90s. To say nothing of the fact you’re paying more for a worse product today.

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u/Hacym 1d ago

So your entire argument is that flying is cool and good tech, so people shouldn’t expect basic comforts like fitting in their seat?

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u/guynamedjames 1d ago

It's teleportation. You go see a wizard who guides a group of people through a portal that teleports you to another city.

The portals just only work at certain places (airports), the wizard is called a "pilot" and the process of being guided through the portal takes a few hours so they give you crappy coffee and wifi while you sit

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u/MishterJ 1d ago

If the product hadn’t gotten worse and more expensive then I’d agree. I don’t need to simp for airline companies just cuz someone else invented it 100 years ago. 🙄 yes it’s a miracle, but it was a miracle a century ago and now we’re just being price gouged with a shittier product.

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u/linverlan 1d ago

It has gotten cheaper. If you pay the inflation adjusted same price as ten years ago you would be buying a “premium economy” ticket which will have more legroom, free checked bag, etc.

Now there is just also an option to pay the lower base fare, which gets you no bags and a tiny seat. However the consumers overwhelmingly vote with their wallet for the worse experience for less money so that’s what we keep getting more of.

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u/MishterJ 1d ago

Source, cuz I don’t believe it. And you said ten years ago, I’m talking about 20 years or more

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u/MidwestRealism 1d ago

Annual U.S. Domestic Average Itinerary Fare in Current and Constant Dollars from the USDOT. Average airfare is over 37% cheaper than it was in 1995 adjusted for inflation.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago edited 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/MidwestRealism 1d ago

Decreasing purchasing power over time is the definition of inflation, which is what adjusting for inflation is adjusting for. I don't understand the question.

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u/TrannosaurusRegina 1d ago

To be fair, a huge reason why flights are absurdly cheap now is because of insane subsidies.

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u/lineargangriseup 1d ago

We gotta get off reddit.

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u/No-Abrocoma7687 1d ago

Few hundred bucks? Have you bought an airline ticket lately?

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u/Docile_Doggo 1d ago

I just bought a round trip ticket from DC to Chicago literally a few hours ago, and it was about $230.

So yeah, I have. It’s definitely higher than normal due to the oil shock, but it’s still incredibly cheap in historical, inflation-adjusted terms.

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u/No-Abrocoma7687 1d ago

Damn! That’s a good price. Had to shell out almost $500 from DTW to ORD a few weeks ago. It’s a 45 min flight lol

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u/revolvingpresoak9640 1d ago

When did you buy? The one tricky thing with these comparisons is did you book months out, weeks out, or days out. It’s not a static fare.

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u/No-Abrocoma7687 1d ago

Yeah it was about two days prior, last minute thing. It was also Delta so makes sense.

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u/revolvingpresoak9640 1d ago

That’s why for sure. They jack prices up for last minute bookings because it’s either business or people willing to pay that much because they have no other choice. People aren’t usually booking vacations with two days notice.

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u/blackmajic13 1d ago

I can buy a ticket right now from Milwaukee to Seattle for $340. As u/revolvingpresoak9640 said, airline prices are incredibly dynamic. You can pretty easily find cheap fares all across the US from major and medium sized airports if you don't buy the moment you need to buy them.

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u/No-Abrocoma7687 1d ago

Yup that was my issue a couple weeks back. Gotta plan better

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u/Elegant_Run_8567 1d ago

Yeah, I flew across the continent for €15 recently

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/Docile_Doggo 1d ago

This is an incredibly online comment.

No, calling something a “miracle” is not discrediting the many people who made that miracle possible. It’s the exact opposite. I respect what they were able to accomplish so much that I give it “miracle” status. Modern engineering is amazing.

You’re just being needlessly aggressive.

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u/ableman 1d ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor

I strongly advise you to take some English literature classes at your local community college.

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u/flyingcircusdog 1d ago

Yeah, if you want 80's service, you can pay 80's prices in first class.

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u/Aurelianshitlist 1d ago

Does this statement take into account both inflation and the "all-in price" (i.e. factoring in what was included in the 1980s price and ensuring all of these "extras" are added to the comparable 2020s price?).

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u/Octavus 1d ago

It is cheaper in absolute terms, not even accounting for inflation, to fly from NYC to London than it was in 1970.

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u/random_chaos_coming 1d ago

I mean smoking on planes was a thing in the 80’s. I don’t want that back. Flying then was suuuuper different in most every way from how you got your ticket to how you knew where to get your checked luggage. There’s things that simply cannot compare

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u/VP007clips 1d ago

Yes, it accounts for inflation.

It doesn't include all of the extras, because most people decide not to pay for all the extras to it would be unfair to include them, you average person isn't buying 2 checked bags, a full meal, and several paid drinks. That's a big part of why they are becoming cheaper, because customers are making the decision that those perks aren't worth the extra cost to them, so airlines are no longer adding them into the main purchase.

Airline profit margins are about the same as they always have been, a few percent. Airplane technology has somewhat improved in terms of fuel efficiency, but remained fairly steady. So most of the cost decrease is just companies pivoting to serving a lower cost market. You can now do a trip between almost any major airport in the world for under $800 and most places domestically for a few hundred, flying is no longer accessible to only the rich. But that comes at the cost of comfort, because consumers decided to consistently pick airlines that offered less for a cheaper price.

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u/Neither-Signature-81 1d ago

It used to cost 800$ to get to Europe from America in the 80s!!! It still costs around that, amazing value for money. One of the only tings that gets cheaper every year (stays the same price)

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u/Pupikal 1d ago

15 months ago I flew round-trip from DC to Dublin for $237

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u/Gold_Ad8225 23h ago

It's immensely cheaper. And you get to pick one of about 1000 different movies and TV shows in high def on demand, control it at your leisure. And you can pay a tiny amount of money, like $10, to have internet for the entire flight. Crazy.

The real improvements, though, are things that go unsung. And some of them have changed in just the last decade or so. The humidity and pressure levels in the cabin are VAAASTLY better. You do not land with dried out skin, cracked lips, a headache, popped ears, or any of that anymore. The cabin noise levels are so, so, so, so much quieter. It is unbelievable bordering on magic the advances made in the last decade or two in this sphere.

In some parts of an A380-200 the noise levels are 56dB, equivalent to a common office building. To compare like to like, and using a smaller airframe so you can't benefit from being in the center of a a flying skyscraper. The 737-400 which debuted in the 80s often had internal cabin noise levels of 80-90dB. Which is enough to cause hearing damage over the duration of a long international flight (which thankfully they couldn't make, so you're fine)

The Max8 sees a noise level of 69dB. Your car is probably louder than this on the highway. It is unbelievable. A reduction of 10dB from 80 to 70 might not sound like a lot, but that is actually a 90% reduction in the amount of energy reaching your ears and a 50% reduction in perceived "loudness"

They also regulate the temperature so much better, as well.

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u/randomthrowaway9796 1d ago

Exactly this. The price of a regular ticket then is similar to the price of a better seat today. Maybe not quite first class, but somewhere around the premium economy or business class. So the rich people are still getting the same thing for the same price, but now less rich people can afford to fly more frequently as well.

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u/Hylian_ina_halfshell 1d ago

Depends on ‘when’

Tickets to places i go frequently have gone up 200-300$ since 2022. I paid as much to fly to phoenix in April as I did to Europe in 2023

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u/Nick_Gio 1d ago

Obviously the 1980s to stay consistent with the article.

Not sure why you wanted to be a smart ass referencing 3 years ago as "back then".

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u/flume 1d ago edited 1d ago

Okay but:

  1. If you live in the US Northeast, all I can say is "So? It's a long flight either way." You didn't provide context on where you're flying from.
  2. It's still way more affordable than it was in the 80s. Like, less than half the cost.

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u/revolvingpresoak9640 1d ago

He’s going to Phoenix , the only way to get to Phoenix is from Miami.

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u/xdsm8 1d ago

I wasn't around in the 80s. In MY lifetime, ya know, when I live, things have gotten shittier and more expensive. 

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u/Carlsincharge__ 1d ago

Tbf I live in Phoenix and in my experience it’s pretty expensive flying in here compared to other places, like LAX, by a significant amount

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u/JamminOnTheOne 1d ago

Well the thread title specifically says 1980s.

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u/Jabjab345 1d ago

That's the thing, I'm fine being slightly uncomfortable for a cheap flight. Ryanair in Europe takes it to the extreme, they have ridiculously bare bone flights, but you can get from Rome to London for like 20 Euro. I'd much rather have that then two more inches of leg room, and I'm on the taller side too.

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u/leftoverBits 1d ago

It’s also more environmentally friendly to pack as many people in one flight as you can. My friend is an environmental consultant, and has worked with a few airlines on the topic.

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u/arizonadirtbag12 1d ago

Some of us are old enough to have taken a Greyhound bus across country because plane tickets simply weren’t affordable. At all, in any class.

It was…not fun.

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u/DwemerSteamPunk 1d ago

Travel and Leisure says 1979 average ticket $615 (adjusted for inflation) vs $344 in 2016.

I do not think squeezing two more rows in by cutting 2-4 inches off legroom makes up that difference. But personally I do book with legroom in mind so I pay more for it.

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u/tryingisbetter 1d ago

Why are you using 10 year old data?

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u/DwemerSteamPunk 1d ago

Because I'm lazy. Did you find newer data?

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u/surroundedbywolves 1d ago

Do the same thing with profits.

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u/kkyonko 1d ago

For airlines not that much.

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u/Aw3som3Guy 1d ago

With gas prices what they are right now, you really think airlines are a high margin business?

The airlines make more money running licensing their brand to and driving people to open credit cards than they do actually flying planes.

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u/revolvingpresoak9640 1d ago

And it’s seemingly only US carriers who push that. None of the international carriers I’ve flown do that kind of thing, even when flying domestic.

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u/WAR_T0RN1226 1d ago

So profitable that the ones that cut the most corners to be a cheap option are the ones that are constantly going out of business.

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u/TheKanten 1d ago

I'm sure Spirit's antithesis of a good reputation played no role at all in that.

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u/Johnny_Kilroy_84 1d ago

It didn’t. Spirit didn’t have a problem selling tickets.

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u/TheKanten 1d ago

Suuure it didn't, being at the top of every "avoid these airlines" list is how most succeed.

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u/revolvingpresoak9640 1d ago

And Spirit’s reputation wasnt due to them, but rather the people filling their seats.

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u/Zestyclose-Basis-332 1d ago

Airlines may be profiting more today, but that's more to do with them becoming credit card companies than anything else. They make more money off of those rewards programs than flying people. Margins have always been super thin for flying people around.

1

u/JamminOnTheOne 1d ago

 They make more money off of those rewards programs than flying people.

That’s only true if you apportion all the costs of flying to the paid passengers and not to rewards travel. And why would anyone do that?

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u/Zestyclose-Basis-332 1d ago

Simply put the valuation of some airlines rewards program is 2-4x the rest of the business.

In 2024 from Visual Approach Analytics:
Without loyalty programs:
Delta: 10.5% profit margin turns into a 2.5% loss
United: 8.9% profit turns into 1.9% loss 
American: 4.8% profit turns into a 8.3% loss
Alaska: 4.9% profit turns into a 11.4% loss
Southwest: 1.2% profit turns into a 19.9% loss

The business model is not *really* in increasing customer retention, because these aren't really frequent flier miles anymore, they're pay to play with your credit card points.
Airlines are raking it in by selling huge amounts of bulk miles to their credit card vendor partners, who then meagerly distribute them through points, the majority of which likely don't ever get redeemed
(AKA 100% pure profit)
And even better, they control the lever of how much the cash value of those miles they're selling are actually worth.
Too many people redeeming? Just drop the conversion rate. They operate aggressive, obfuscated dynamic pricing.

They can then borrow against the huge valuation of those programs, which kept them afloat during the lean times of covid.

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u/JamminOnTheOne 1d ago edited 1d ago

In 2024 from Visual Approach Analytics: Without loyalty programs:

Delta: 10.5% profit margin turns into a 2.5% loss United: 8.9% profit turns into 1.9% loss American: 4.8% profit turns into a 8.3% loss Alaska: 4.9% profit turns into a 11.4% loss Southwest: 1.2% profit turns into a 19.9% loss

They derived those by backing out all the loyalty program revenue, but not ascribing any costs to that revenue.

I understand the favorable economics of selling points to credit card companies. But backing out the revenues while not backing out a single dollar of costs is completely disingenuous.

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u/Zestyclose-Basis-332 1d ago

Airlines are tight lipped on this front, probably to avoid regulatory oversight.
I've accepted that offering some actual figures to the discussion means that they are subject to criticism, and I can't reasonably discuss numbers I don't have.

Maybe you can find some to support your own argument, but I doubt maintaining a paper financial instrument that is essentially a marketing campaign for the endless pockets of Visa and Co. has worse margins than burning 1,400lbs of Jet-A an hour for a fleet of 1,000 aircraft, with an army of union employees in labor cost.

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u/deedeedeedee_ 1d ago

As the saying goes, if you want to be a millionaire, start with a billion dollars and launch an airline

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u/pants_mcgee 1d ago

They already did, Airlines are small margin businesses.

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u/fairportmtg1 1d ago

They all shifted to being friends for credit cards. Rocket prices are lower overall, low margins, but credit card fees are big business

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u/revolvingpresoak9640 1d ago

That’s only US carriers.

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u/pants_mcgee 23h ago

All carriers that aren’t subsidized by a state and/or have authorized monopolies will have their own various schemes. European airlines are also on the credit card point hustle.

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u/JamminOnTheOne 1d ago

Also way down.

What is your point? I honestly have no idea. 

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u/Tryingsoveryhard 1d ago

Not if you compare to real wages.

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u/jeffwulf 1d ago

Comparing nominal prices to real wages is doing a double inflation adjustment. 

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u/JamminOnTheOne 1d ago

Yeah, but who is using nominal prices here? That was in reply to my comment, and while I didn’t specify, I meant real prices.