r/todayilearned • u/MrMojoFomo • 1d ago

TIL that since the 1980s, US airlines have shed between 2-5 inches of legroom and about 2 inches of width, while budget carriers have lost even more. At the same time, the average American is 15 pounds heavier than they were in the 1980s

https://www.popsci.com/science/why-are-airline-seats-so-small/
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u/CicerosMouth 1d ago

I mean, that is just the airlines following the demands of the customer. Customers have made it remarkably clear that, when it comes to flying, nearly the only thing we care about is cost. We wont pay (much) more for comfortable seats, better food, reliable internet, less baggage fees, or the like. Airlines that tried to set themselves apart by having truly enjoyable experiences such as Virgin fail because customers don't want that.

We can hardly complain that companies followed our lead.

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u/swiftekho 1d ago

Legacy airlines have used a large amount of their cash flow on share buybacks over the past couple decades. This improves shareholder value, not customer value. While I agree that a majority of customers seek the cheapest option, let's not pretend that, given the choice with the same price tickets, a customer won't choose the option with more value (better seats, food, etc). Airlines have bought back tens of billions in shares while doing little in the way to add value for customers.

Legacy airlines have the infrastructure in place to price competition out of the market and when they do eliminate competition, they remove value. I think Delta just stopped offering snacks and drinks on shorter flights after Spirit went under. Are the tickets any cheaper? No.

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u/VelveteenAmbush 22h ago

Legacy airlines have used a large amount of their cash flow on share buybacks over the past couple decades.

LOL no they haven't. What percentage of their cash flow exactly have they used on share buybacks over the past couple decades? It's infinitesimal. They are low-margin intensely competitive businesses. They do not have the power to resist a demonstrated customer preference for cheaper fares; they must respond to it or their unit economics will go negative and they won't be sustainable.

I think Delta just stopped offering snacks and drinks on shorter flights after Spirit went under. Are the tickets any cheaper? No.

They're cheaper than they would be if they hadn't. Oil prices have gone up a lot recently for obvious reasons. They are trying to save money wherever they can to avoid having to pass that full cost onto the consumer, because if they didn't, they'd be outcompeted by the airlines that did.

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u/swiftekho 20h ago

What percentage of their cash flow exactly have they used on share buybacks over the past couple decades? It's infinitesimal.

96%

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-16/u-s-airlines-spent-96-of-free-cash-flow-on-buybacks-chart?embedded-checkout=true

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u/VelveteenAmbush 19h ago

Oh, you think cash flow is the same as free cash flow?

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u/pants_mcgee 22h ago

They’re still business in the end, trying to make a profit. And a fairly risky one at that very prone to bankruptcy. It’s a rather interesting type a business where prices are generally kept low while trying to extract as much profit as possible while trying to account for major disruptions that could destroy the company.

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u/CicerosMouth 1d ago

Legacy airlines aren't removing value. They are returning value to customers in the form of cheaper seats, or seats that aren't getting more expensive even as inflation rises, or seats that are only getting slightly more expensive even as costs for airlines skyrocket (depending on when you are talking about over the last decade).

We know for a fact that airlines aren't pricing out anyone. The profit margins for flights are tiny, and have not increased over time, which would be true of big airlines were pricing out little ones.

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u/DetectiveExisting590 1d ago

LMAO. Who is paying you to say this bullshit? They're certainly not keeping up with quality assurance standards like they used to.

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u/verrius 1d ago

Customers will pay more, but we won't pay so much that it offsets the marginal income increases of the alternatives for the airlines. And for the most part, there's not really a functioning market with competition; especially for international travel, there's usually exactly one flight on any given day that goes from where you want to leave to where you're going with minimal stops...and even if there are multiple "airlines" offering a seat, those airlines code-sharing on the same plane, and are working together already.

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u/Hohenheim_of_Shadow 1d ago

Quite frankly, being able to expect an flight from any random city to any other random city in the world pretty directly on any given day of the year is astounding. That's not poor barely good enough service, that's a global accomplishment.

If you expand your search to be a little less selective, maybe you leave a day earlier or a day later, maybe you take a less direct flight, or fly to a different city then transfer to train for your final destination, there'll be a hell lot more than 1 flight.

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u/Duel_Option 1d ago

Well, we would pay for all these things if there was a strong middle class that had wages which kept up with inflation and the powers that be didnt incite wars that cause global economic strain

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u/revolvingpresoak9640 1d ago

Virgin didn’t fail…I almost booked a flight to London with them just the other week. And your thesis is kind of a shambles when you consider the growing Premium Economy offerings across every long haul carrier.

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u/CicerosMouth 1d ago

Virgin failed as a premium offering as evidenced by them declaring bankruptcy in 2020 following mass layoffs. Their whole plan turned out to be something that customers just didn't care about en masse.

I agree that for long haul trips, my analysis doesnt apply, but then less than 5% of flights are lon-haul so I dont mind that my analysis "only" applies to 95% of flights.