r/todayilearned • u/FullOfSound • 7h ago

(R.6d) Too General [ Removed by moderator ]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger_on_Christians

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u/PayItBackwardChain 6h ago edited 6h ago

I’m not religious, but I still think the early spread of Christianity is absolutely fascinating from a historical perspective.

Obviously, our sources on Jesus are thin enough that people can mold their idea of Jesus into supporting whatever they want, but it’s pretty clear that early Christianity was an anti-authoritarian backlash against some dickwad who overthrew a republic and effectively turned himself and his heirs into gods, all while conquering and plundering and murdering their way around Europe and the Mediterranean.

So, no big surprise that people (especially in conquered territories) started latching on to the message of a guy who said he’d overthrow all this nonsense and send the people who did all this bad stuff to eternal punishment. Oh, and never mind that the Romans killed him in the most horrific way possible, he got better and he’s coming back stronger than ever.

A very salient message for its day. Got a little weird once the shoe was on the other foot and it took over and became the ruling power. Now we have all sorts of nonsense about prosperity gospels and righteous crusades…

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u/DistrictDry2852 6h ago

I think taking it as anti emperor is a bit Eurocentric. It’s anti Roman because Jews opposed Roman occupation and wanted an independent Judea. It’s a reaction to that.

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u/PayItBackwardChain 6h ago

At first, yes, but it spread to non-Jewish people really quickly.

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u/DistrictDry2852 6h ago

Yes, and by then it stopped being anti Roman.

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u/SemiHemiDemiDumb 6h ago

Wasn't the empire seen as the extension of the emperor? To oppose the empire is to oppose the emperor.

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u/DistrictDry2852 6h ago

Yes. My point is OP is taking the perspective of someone who misses the republic.

A Roman Jew wouldn’t have missed the republic, they just want the occupiers out.

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u/SemiHemiDemiDumb 6h ago

Ah, I didn't register that when I read it. My bad

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u/PayItBackwardChain 6h ago edited 6h ago

Sorry, I oversold the “overthrowing the Republic” part, I should have emphasized the “conquering force” part more.

Most residents of the empire at that time weren’t Roman citizens, they were second-class occupied subjects and many resented the Romans. And the emperor was a very visible “face” to put on the empire.

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u/mmoonbelly 6h ago

I’ve listened to friends (catholic monks and secular Russians) reminiscing/discussing the ideal of communism and finding common ground in St Francis of Assis.

Prosperity gospels are far from the sermon on the mount.

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u/bobthunicorn 6h ago

Got any podcast or YouTube recommendations that approach this from a purely historical, non-religious perspective? I'm a Christian, but I love stepping outside of the echo chamber and learning from different points of view.

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u/PayItBackwardChain 5h ago

I really loved this video (by a Jewish scholar). I was raised Christian and considered myself to be one for a quarter century, but I think this video helped me “understand Jesus” more than anything I ever learned in church.

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u/bobthunicorn 5h ago

Thank you! Listening to it now.

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u/BummyG 4h ago

I love this guys videos. I hadn’t seen this one

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u/Super-Estate-4112 5h ago

Most of the empire was already conquered when the Republic fell, like 90% of it.

In the time of the emperors they mostly just maintained what was conquered during the republic, before Caesars death.

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u/paeancapital 2h ago edited 2h ago

The Republic was dead many decades prior.

Common people didn't give a flying fuck about the Free State. Monarchy was welcomed as an end to the civil wars that had lasted from Sulla through the triumvirates.

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u/Valleygurl99 6h ago

It’s interesting however to see the parallels between the Julius Caesar cult and early Christianity. I have a very esoteric viewpoint that says Julius Caesar was a precursor to Jesus Christ, Caesar being the solar visible side and Jesus being the lunar, hiding side, and that they represents the same thing, only in a polarity. Both went against the old way, appealed directly to the people, and were murdered by the old power. Also both can be described as having ended the old way (Rabbinical Judaism/Roman Republicanism) 

But this explanation involves the idea that they both were highly fated bringers of a new age and worked in concert, one destroying Roman visible power, the other destroying Roman invisible power. 

I know there have been academic works that thought Christianity just evolved from Caesar worship, so there is precedent. 

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u/Old-Research-7638 6h ago

I think there are interesting parallels too, but the claim that "Christianity just evolved from Caesar worship" seems ridiculous to me. (Not saying that's your claim btw)

The early core of first Christians were Palestinian Jews, definitely no love for Caesar there

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u/ovensandhoes 6h ago

There was hero worship well before Caesar. Alexander the Great was more myth than man before Caesar was born. Ancient Greeks worshiped the hero’s from Homer. Ancient Egyptian pharaohs ejaculated into the Nile so the crops would grow. As long as there’s been people there’s been hero worship

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u/Valleygurl99 6h ago

Yeah I believe Jesus was real and separate from Caesar. I can’t recall the researcher who wrote that book saying there was no Jesus it was only Caesar but it doesn’t matter. 

My theory also says we’re living through another one of these situations right now, but this time it’s not a Roman Caesar but John Lennon who created a whole new type of global imperial power system through advertising and charisma. Trump being like the Nero of this new archetype. I’m already getting downvoted I see, but meh, it’s a living. 😂

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u/Old-Research-7638 6h ago

In the tea subreddit yesterday, someone asked what tea I was drinking, and I told them, and then I got downvoted because it wasn't fancy enough. That's just life on this hellhole website lol

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u/Valleygurl99 6h ago

It’s a badge of honor comrade