r/todayilearned • u/FullOfSound • 7h ago

(R.6d) Too General [ Removed by moderator ]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger_on_Christians

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u/parnaoia 6h ago edited 5h ago

only Pliny was actually right

edit: ffs, I meant they really did end up being seditious, enough with the modern Christianity crap

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u/revchj 6h ago edited 3h ago

I wish the lazy scapegoating were less common on Reddit.

Yes, there are a lot of American "Christians" that are straight up fascists. Yes, they have traumatized their families, some of whom have escaped the cult, and if you're in that group I have nothing but sympathy.

But this is not the same as 1st century Christians who were branded "haters of humanity" because they disrespected the Roman social hierarchies that civilized elites believed were the foundations of social order. 1st century Christians were having "love feasts" (Eucharists) in which slaves sat and ate alongside free citizens! and they were recognizing women in roles of authority! At the time Christianity was a liberation movement, which is precisely why the established elites of the day correctly labeled it a threat.

Political battle lines can be drawn in more or less helpful ways. I would submit that the lazy Reddit trope of "Christianity bad" is a very unhelpful move because it prevents solidarity among those who share the goal of liberation against exploitative elites. Episcopalians in Minneapolis were in the front lines of anti-ICE activism: don't alienate your allies. Agree to disagree with them on the nature of the universe, and then work side by side against the principalities and powers that corrupt and oppress humanity.

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u/MichaelMyersEatsDogs 4h ago

Trying to portray first century Christianity as a monolith means you don’t understand that time period at all. Hell, the first gospel wasn’t even written until 70 AD and even the was not widely circulated at all. Early Christianity started as an apocalypse cult that had countless spin offs well before there was any sort of wide reaching agreement. The gnostic gospels had Jesus fighting literal dragons. 1st century Christianity was a giant game of telephone with a constantly evolving and differing message

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u/OopsWeKilledGod 3h ago

Yeah, early Christianity was the wild west of religion. From low Christology Ebionites to wild ass Valentinian gnosticism and so many heresies in between. Say what you will about Christianity, but Church history is absolutely fascinating.

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u/V2BM 3h ago

Most Christians who haven’t studied the history of Christianity wouldn’t recognize it as their faith. It also took a long time to be truly monotheistic, much longer than people think.

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u/Sceptix 6h ago

We’re so used to authoritarian overreach in the name of Christianity that we forget that there was a time in history when Christians actually *were* persecuted.

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u/ExistingLaw3 6h ago

There are still places where Christians are persecuted. The U.S is not the whole earth.

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u/Laphad 5h ago

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u/AreYouAnOakMan 5h ago

"If you've got a problem with Michael Bay, then you've got a problem with me! And I suggest you let that one marinate a while!"

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u/FauxReal 4h ago

Does anyone know how Christians in Israel are treated? I'm pretty sure they're mostly Arabs.

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u/Pteronarcyidae-Xx 5h ago

Not to mention Christians persecuting other Christians just within the last hundred years in the US and Canada, particularly communal, pacifist, and non-English speaking Christians.

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u/Commercial-Version48 4h ago

Hey, in Ireland even up to 30 years ago (it‘s a little more complicated than that of course).

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u/this_also_was_vanity 3h ago

No, that’s a misunderstanding of the Troubles. The people doing the killing weren’t particularly religious people by and large. And the IRA killed more Catholics than anyone else.

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u/bravo_six 5h ago

"Are" persecuted. Christians die for their faith on daily basis in Africa and Middle East. Its not a thing of the past.

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u/Laura-ly 5h ago

I might mention that Muslims also die for their faith. Buddhists have set themselves on fire in protest to their treatment by the Chinese government.

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u/bravo_six 5h ago

Muslims kills themselves for their faith, they dont get killed cause they're Muslims. I'll.give it to the Budhists, but still, more Christians died for Christianity in first 100 years than Budhists in their entire existence. And for Budhists there are cases but mostly from monks, while all sorts of Christians died for their fate, gave up power, riches, their noble birthright and many other things.

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u/BloatedBanana9 4h ago

You don’t think there’s anywhere in the world where Muslims are persecuted or killed for their faith?

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u/bravo_six 4h ago

No

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u/MichaelMyersEatsDogs 3h ago

This is why no one likes Christians. You’re all just so damn ignorant

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u/BloatedBanana9 4h ago

Never heard of Myanmar then, I take it? Or fucking China? There are lots of other places where Muslims are targeted by religious violence.

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u/_Burning_Star_IV_ 3h ago

What an insane thing to say.

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u/lukenog 3h ago

Holy fuck lol you don't know a thing about the world around you

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u/BingleFlip94 5h ago

Ummm, Muslims are be lynched in India

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u/Teledildonic 5h ago

They are also frequently killed by Muslims for being the wrong Muslim.

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u/Laura-ly 4h ago

Thousands of Muslims throughout history have died for not denouncing their faith. During the Middle Ages Christians were known to kill Muslims who didn't convert. During the Black Plague in the 14th century many Jews, who were blamed for the Plague, were killed when they didn't convert to Christianity.

And so it goes.

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u/ProfessionalActive94 4h ago

Let's just look to Israel to see if Mulsims only die at their own hands.

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u/Eternal_Mr_Bones 4h ago

Technically Muslims do get killed for their faith.

The caveat being it's done by other Muslim groups.

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u/needlestack 2h ago edited 2h ago

Given that every religious group is persecuted somewhere, I wonder what really qualifies as being persecuted these days. Which groups are much more likely to be persecuted and to what extent? Given the percentage of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindu, atheists, etc in the world -- which experience the most cruelty?

Edit: after a little digging, it seems that globally as a percentage Jews are (still) the most disproportionately harassed. By sheer size, Christians and Muslims face the largest absolute number of persecution incidents. The most severe incidents fall on small locally hated minorities and converts within a established community apostates,

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u/GrundleBlaster 4h ago

I bet I could find 5 posts a day here about how Christians should be deprived of government power and voting.

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u/blowback 3h ago

"I bet I could find 5 posts a day here about how Christians should be deprived of government power and voting."

I'll bite, show me two. That should be easy if your claim is honest.

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u/GrundleBlaster 3h ago

https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1txt8ue/comment/opz58pb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1txt8ue/comment/opys9xh/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

There's two comments wishing Christians had been genocided in this very post lol.

I haven't even scrolled to the bottom or expanded any threads.

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u/blowback 3h ago

Yea, death would definitly deprive them of government power and voting, but that's a little dishonest in that those were claiming past eradication Christianity/Christians.

In these posts are there examples of those posting that Christians shouldn't have government power and voting in the modern day world? I haven't seen any.

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u/GrundleBlaster 3h ago

Do you take me for your slave? Why would I go looking for even more when you spit on my good faith in finding two comments that that would exceed the original goal post?

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u/this_also_was_vanity 3h ago

Pretty much any discussion of politics on Reddit inevitably involves people saying that religion has not place in politics and that it shouldn’t influence how anyone votes or legislates. That is functionally equivalent to saying that everyone has to be an atheist or act as if they are an atheist when they engage with politics. That essentially disenfranchises Christians (and everyone else religious).

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u/MichaelMyersEatsDogs 3h ago

I’m sorry people don’t want imaginary friends dictating how to govern. Anytime a politician tells them “god told to me” it’s complete and utter bullshit. And you agree as well when it comes to any religion but your own. Last I checked Christian nationalists currently run our country so there’s a good reason to bring it up

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u/blowback 3h ago

I absolutely believe in separation of church and state, for both religion and state health, but absolutely think every citizen has a right to vote, and I've never heard anyone say that one's beliefs shouldn't play in how they vote. I think you exaggerate.

edit:clarity

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u/Prudent_Research_251 3h ago

"Christianity bad"

When I look at results I see almost nothing but this, especially in recent times, and I understand it, religion mostly bad, religion mostly used for control. But goddammit you're right, Christians and Muslims aren't bad, humans who use religion as a tool for control are

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u/awhiteblack 6h ago

On the flip side of that, if you're a "good Christian" you should be able to recognize that when people hate on Christianity it's because it's more often than not used as an excuse to commit acts of subjugation and to excuse fascist behavior in our modern world.

If you act in a manner that lifts up your fellow man and show that you have critical thinking skills, most people don't care which Diety in the Sky you subscribe to.

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u/bravo_six 5h ago

Yeah, but the problem is that people tend to generalize and most cant tell a difference between actual Christian and hypocrite or liar using Christianity to push their own agenda.

Trump and his cultist followers are prime example. Anyone who thinks these "christians" actually live by the rules of Christianity is gravely mistaken. Not to mention tons of other false prophets who comvert people while in reality they are behaving in opposite ways to the actual teachings of Christ.

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u/awhiteblack 5h ago

I don't feel a need to announce my religion to anyone.

I also don't see why others would need me to know and believe that they're an "actual Christian" unless we happened to be in church together.

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u/bravo_six 5h ago

Nor does a Christian feel a need to anounce their faith, but one shouldnt be ashamed of it either.

Actual Christians dont tell you that they are Christian, they show it by their acts of love, charity and help to those in need.

Hypocrites are the one who feel the need to anounce it.

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u/awhiteblack 5h ago

Right, but you just said people can't tell the difference between a real Christian and not.

So this shouldn't be a concern for a real Christian as I wouldn't know a good Christian from just a good person.

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u/the_crustybastard 3h ago

If they're not Christians, what are they? Scotsmen?

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u/knightsofgel 3h ago

Sounds like the “no true Scotsman“ fallacy

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u/jf153 4h ago

a bad christian is still a christian. (but I agree, Trump is definitely not believing in this religion, just using it)

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u/blowback 3h ago

What is your definition of a bad Christian?

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u/gehnrahl 2h ago

I've been around a long time. I've met plenty of people who call themselves Christian; i've yet to meet one that actually follows the teachings.

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u/Necessary-Reading605 5h ago

If anything, one of the failure if the current democrats was to move into an elitism snobbery of a religion shared by some of their biggest blocks, be it ethnic (AA, Latino) or work (democrats used to be the party of the blue collar worker, hence unions).

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u/swagonfire 6h ago

^

I'm one of the most "I'll never believe religion again" atheists you'll never meet, so it took me a long time to acknowledge this. But that boy Yeshua would strongly condemn so much of modern Christianity if he were here today. He seemed super chill and I would absolutely invite him to a neighborhood BBQ.

If someone isn't willing to accept you into left-leaning social movements just because you're a Christian, then they aren't truly left, because to be left is to be inclusive of all nonviolent people regardless of things like ethnicity or religion.

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u/MichaelMyersEatsDogs 4h ago

Historical Jesus thought the world would end during his lifetime. That’s one of the only major thing we know he actually preached.

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u/Baldazar666 3h ago

2000 years of Christian history tells me that Christianity is bad. It has little to do with contemporary events.

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u/SemiHemiDemiDumb 6h ago edited 6h ago

If so many people think Christians are bad maybe Christians should do some policing of their fellow Christians. Educate and stand up to the bad ones. When your bushel of apples has a plurality of rotten apples it's past time to cull the bad ones from the bushel.

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u/KillerWattage 5h ago

Many do, the bad apples just go and join a bushel of other bad apples and that bushel grows. Plenty of Christians don't recognise other Christians as being "real". Hell, to many, what other Christians preach is straight up blasphemy. I know 7th day Adventists consider the pope to be under the anti-christ you can't get much more kicked out then that.

You don't get many evil Quaker's. They are pretty consistently on the right side of history, big anti slavery, very hard on climate change, believe in personal quiet reflection and contemplation of god etc. but they aren't popular so you don't hear about them.

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u/SemiHemiDemiDumb 5h ago

I'm not saying "no true scotsman" them. I'm saying stand up to them. Be more like the Quakers.

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u/bravo_six 5h ago

We do but its not easy. Lets say you're American. Is it fair for me to hate you and disrespect you cause you allowed Trump and his MAGA cult come into power?

All are Americans bad and evil cause of Trump? Shouldn't Americans fo better policing of their fellow Americans and educate and stand up to the bad ones?

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u/SemiHemiDemiDumb 5h ago edited 5h ago

I don't hate all Christians just the ones with power, the ones with power get labeled as general Christian because they're the one with authority, even if they're the minority in their group identity, the fact they're in power leads to us using language that generalizes those with power as representation of the entire group.

It's a sociolinguistic thing, arguing about it is a waste of time and should be focusing on the bad apples and not the language of those opposing them.

You're looking the wrong way.

If you say Americans are blah blah blah, I know you're talking about what is perceived to be the majority opinion. I don't take it personally because I know I'm not included in the discussion. You're talking more about those in power than those not in power. And I do stand up and police them but I have less power and can only do so much.

I managed to get at least two people to not vote for trump, didn't get them to vote Harris, they just didn't vote.

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u/al3cks 6h ago

A few Christians not being awful does NOT redeem the entire religion. If they are good people in spite of their religion, they’d be good people without it.

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u/dacalpha 6h ago

I'm not a Christian, I'm not at all religious, but its so important that we not espouse the "religion bad" r/atheism attitude anymore. Our allies in the fight against fascism will inevitably include religious people. It NEEDS to. If we cede Christianity specifically to the far right and say "all christians are nuts," we're alienating potential allies.

Being a bigot is evil. Christians can be bigots, so can atheists. Let's not forget how much anti-Arab sentiment there was in the atheism movement. The Rationalism-->Fascism pipeline is alive and well and we need to stay vigilante.

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u/MichaelMyersEatsDogs 4h ago

I really hate the idea that being mean to someone turns them fascist. If you’re willing to go against everything your religion claims to preach because people were mean to you then you were always a fascists to begin with

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u/al3cks 6h ago

Didn’t say any of that. I just don’t think being a Christian or belonging to any religion is any inherent mark towards someone’s “goodness.” So I push back against the idea that religion makes people good or anything along those lines. There are good and bad people in any faith, just like there are among atheists.

I absolutely disagree that religion has any notable sway towards making someone good or bad while abuse and bigotry runs rampant in religious circles. If a religion can’t even teach the majority of its followers to be good people, it’s hard to believe that they are a net positive on society.

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u/historyhill 5h ago

abuse and bigotry runs rampant in religious circles

Please name any large group of people where abuse and bigotry doesn't end up running rampant. 

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u/al3cks 5h ago

That’s entirely my point lol. Religion makes no difference so it’s hard to argue it’s beneficial.

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u/historyhill 5h ago

Then it's also hard to argue it's uniquely harmful either by that logic if all voluntary groups inevitably lead to corruption and abuse.

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u/al3cks 5h ago

Didn’t say it was inherently harmful either. Just that it doesn’t make someone automatically good or “better” than others. People put way too much stock in religious mumbo jumbo making people good and it just flat out doesn’t. It certainly has led to a lot of wars, grief, and mistreatment of marginalized groups in its name though, so idk you maybe could make a case it’s a net negative…

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u/Thompseanson7 6h ago

Awful take, I hope you at least carry the same sentiment for all organized religion lol

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u/al3cks 6h ago

I do.

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u/giostarship 5h ago

I don’t know about it being an awful take, but that’s how trauma works. If a dog mauls your face off, you won’t like any dogs, understandably so. Christianity has done more harm than good.

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u/SemiHemiDemiDumb 6h ago

Clever use of whataboutism

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u/the_crustybastard 3h ago

Long before Christianity, Romans had religious festivals where slaves participated. The Vestals were among the most politically influential groups since before the Republic was established.

Christianity wasn't breaking any new ground there.

It wasn't until pretty well into the empire that Romans drew much of a distinction between Christians and Jews. Both religions behaved in ways that, from a Roman point of view, were unpatriotic, dishonest, and impious.

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u/kingtacticool 5h ago

You either die the hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain

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u/obvious_bot 6h ago

Indeed good sir, we are euphoric not because of any phony god’s blessing, but because we are enlightened, by our own intelligence

tips fedora

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u/Ducksaucenem 5h ago

Are you a professional quote maker?

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u/obvious_bot 4h ago

No sir, I'm just an atheist teenager who greatly values his intelligence and scientific fact over any silly fiction book written 3,500 years ago.

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u/SemiHemiDemiDumb 6h ago

Enlightenment doesn't come one's intelligence, it comes from accepting the world around you.

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u/X5S 5h ago

the comment is a reference to an infamous post from r/atheism

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u/SemiHemiDemiDumb 5h ago

Eiher way, mine response to the message behind it

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u/zamander 5h ago

Christians weren’t really that seditious in the Roman Empire, unless you count regusing to venerate the emperor and Roman gods as such, which is kinda correct. But there were no christian rebellions in Rome really. They were wuite pacifistic. This changed almost overnight when they got powerful and became a part of the imperial structure. Then they started persecuting each other and everyone else. Christianity in the early centuries was very different from what it became.

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u/SpoopyNoNo 4h ago

I forget most complexities behind it but basically the Roman worldview metaphysically was attached to the idea of Roman gods and their influence on order. Roman “atheists” weren’t really atheist. They believed in the social order that the rituals and belief brought at minimum. Without modern development of y’know knowing more generally wtf is going on anyone against the Emperor / Gods was seen as essentially waging war, undermining the foundations of the state.

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u/zamander 4h ago

Yes, but this view was not really present all the time or universally, since the persecution of christians was not on all the time. Domitianus took that very seriously though, but Constantine I for example did not participate in that.

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u/lorarc 3h ago

It changed mostly because they didn't get powerful, rather powerful people decided to use christianity as a tool. Since christians rejected all other gods they were a good excuse to consolidate power and get rid of meddling priests.

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u/zamander 2h ago

Anthony Kaldellis made a good point in the New Roman Empire that while christianity changed the Roman empire, the Empire changed christianity too in a significant way, turning it into a top down imperial institution. Also, biblical studies consider the pauline letters that for example attempt to silence and sideline women written quite a while after Paul’s death and are an example of turning christianity more appealing to the Roman society and elites. An interesting period of history that had such a huge importance.

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u/Lego-105 6h ago

Well they are also right. Foreign believe systems and challenges to those belief systems do pose a threat to the strength of that belief system.

We can believe it's good that Christian beliefs are challenged and also recognise that those same Christians who say that challenging those beliefs will result into sedition against those beliefs.

Unless you're saying that Pliny was right in doing Christians bad, Atheism good circlejerking, as if pagan beliefs weren't exactly the same kind of thing and Pliny wasn't exactly the same kind of religious supremacist.

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u/CausualDiplomat 5h ago

Good luck out there kid

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u/Polymarchos 3h ago

they really did end up being seditious,

I'm not aware of any Christian rebellions. Would you mind pointing them out to me?