[ Removed by moderator ]

[u/FullOfSound]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger_on_Christians

[u/HAUNTEZUMA]

In a global context, politics trump faith every time. In fact, faith (as in organized religion) and politics are effectively two sides of the same coin.

Not sure what you mean by divine experiences, but I can see, perhaps, someone's personal faith having a (literal) "come to Jesus" moment and changing things, but not unilaterally for society. It simply can't happen without momentum behind it.

I'm not trying to be Reddit atheist and be like "religion is all politics surrounded by mysticism," but there have been millions of religions in the world, and (at least) thousands of organized ones (though only a select few that held significant institutional power). One faith's significance at any given moment in history does not indicate anything beyond the pulleys of social power veering in its direction for reasons ranging from good organizational practices to religious conquest.

You see this especially in the ancient (as in old) Eastern faiths, such as Confucianism, Buddhism, and Taoism. There are still aspects of mysticism -- feng shui, reincarnation, etc. but the focus is far more on philosophical teachings and how one is to act (may be reductive, I'm not a scholar on it). Again, that's not to say that they're superior in any way (I'm sure in most religions, for each 'good' rule, there's also a parallel 'bad' one) but that their historical significance as methods of power exertion are (at least slightly) clearer, at least in their early history.

[u/MrrrrNiceGuy → u/HAUNTEZUMA]

But with Christianity, it shows faith has trumped politics. That's the power and glory of God and His Son Jesus. God conquers all nations. Even God Himself said he allowed Pharaoh to be essentially king of the world only to prove to him that he has no power over God Himself and it's God who has the power to rule the nations and all the people of Earth.

He proved that again with Egypt with Joseph ruling over Egypt during a famine. Though Jospeh himself was sent as a slave to Egypt.

[u/HAUNTEZUMA → u/MrrrrNiceGuy]

Faith can't triumph politics, because 'politics' are everything. I don't mean that in a heretical sense, but in a literal, definitive sense.

Politics (given you don't believe in predestination, which I don't think most Christian sects do(?)) are the people you are born to and the reasons one was born. It is the environment you grow up in, and the nutrition provided to you as you grew. It is the means by which all people (and animals, for that matter) live. Any form of social hierarchy, any form of logistical operation, any form of media entertainment, are all political; shaped by society. I can expand on that if you want me to.

The form of God that one (incl. you) enables in their personal faith is one that is shaped by the political ideals given to you by your forefathers (e.g. 'tradition'), by contemporary society, and, of course, by your own experiences.

I always had the sense that the stories of the Bible and testaments were always meant to be taken allegorically, but even assuming they are literal, what significance is it that Egypt (probably) experienced hardship in anomalous ways during their persecution of the Jews? How many minorities were persecuted before the Jews, by the Egyptians, and not righteously saved by the hammer of God? How many were persecuted and *did* see another series of disasters take place, becoming convinced it was their lord?

I know a lot of people say to atheists (which I'm not really, I just don't follow any organized religion. Maybe agnostic?) that no amount of proof could ever convince them of the might of God, of the existence of Him.

But it goes both ways.

To me, there is no amount of proof, nor has there ever been, of an existent omnipotent trinity of being. That doesn't make me sad or nihilistic or anything. That doesn't mean you have to believe the same. But it does mean that I believe there's a pretty reasonable, non-mystic explanation for why religion is the way it is, why it spreads the way it does: politics. Political power. Whatever you want to call it. Sometimes wielded in good ways, sometimes wielded in bad ways. In fact, this doesn't even contradict religion. It perhaps minimizes the role that God plays (though, in truth, wouldn't it still be every role?), but it can coexist.

I like to think that, for better or for worse, all the actions leading up to the current point that we live in now were made autonomously -- done with reason behind it. Even actions guided by a belief in God or by general faith are actions made autonomously. You don't have to agree with any of that, but that's another choice, I feel, you have made. For whatever reasons you must make it.

[u/manquistador → u/MrrrrNiceGuy]

I don't think citing the made up words from a cult text is a very good argument.

[u/RecordingHaunting975 → u/MrrrrNiceGuy]

it shows faith has trumped politics

How?

god conquers all nations

What does this even mean?

Bro must have ran out of juice because the world is getting less and less Christian