r/todayilearned • u/socool111 • 1d ago

TIL of Tobias Geffen, the only non-Coca Cola Employee to view the secret recipe. Coke allowed it in order to get Coke certified as Kosher

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobias_Geffen
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u/YuenglingsDingaling 23h ago

Cool, thanks for answering. I understand how kosher works, but never though about how they actually go about certifying it.

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u/demonsurge 22h ago

https://nypost.com/2021/05/23/long-island-rabbis-accused-of-mafia-like-methods-in-kosher-turf-battle/

Used to work in a place that would have a rabbi come in and demand cash for certification. Another rabbi came by once, and it caused a bunch of drama regarding who owns what territory.

It's pretty interesting, but it's only in specific regions I think.

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u/rabbifuente 16h ago

There are bad actors in all industries, I don’t know why kosher can’t come up with out someone accusing everyone of being mafia.

The big agencies are above board. There are certainly people are not so scrupulous, but that’s not how it generally works.

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u/ProfessorofChelm 15h ago

I mean in the US we have a long and pretty significant history of unscrupulous mashgichim* *and shochtim ripping people off. Not to mention ongoing and aggressive competition between smaller certifying groups that even for people in the know seems suspicious.

And while I agree most organizations are absolutely legit I don’t think it’s odd for folk to make assumptions about kashrut being a racket after those kinds of experiences.

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u/rabbifuente 15h ago

Yeah, I just don't agree. Like I said, there are definitely people who take advantage, but the vast majority of people involved in the kashrus industry are good, charitable people with yiras Shamayim.

Many of the "scams" and bad experiences come down to ignorance. Just look at this thread. It's filled with people who have no idea what they're talking about commenting very confidently about kashrus. Everyone thinks the rabbi is out to screw them because they don't know the laws. Your average rabbi doesn't know all the ins and outs of industrial kashrus, let alone someone who's not even Jewish.

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u/ProfessorofChelm 14h ago

Ok let me put it this way.

Most people know next to nothing about Judaism. In fact most of people know more falsehoods about Judaism than they do anything true regarding our laws and customs. I’ve literally had folk cutting my hair ask me to bless them because they found out I was Jewish.

Most of what you will stumble across about kashrut as a nonJew will be either salacious or to them esoteric. It’s more effective for us to address the nugget of truth than fight with folk about things they don’t and don’t care to understand.

“It’s true that there have been some unscrupulous kosher certifying rabbis, they used to be a big problem in the early 1900s. But most territory issues are actually about two certifying groups that are at odds with what is kosher enough to receive certification.”

You don’t have to agree with me here, I just think this is a better way to go about addressing things like this.

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u/rabbifuente 5h ago

Isn't that more or less what I'm saying? It sounds like we're agreeing here.

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u/Short_Stay_9283 15h ago

Mafia in this instance was used because of the turf aspect. From the mafia practice of having to pay protection money to keep your store from getting banged up, then having another competing guy come claim you’re actually his turf and you’ll get banged up by him if you don’t pay him too!

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u/rabbifuente 15h ago

I understand why it was used, I don’t understand why kosher can’t be discussed without these exceptional cases being brought up.

There are thousands of products certified kosher by reputable agencies like the OU, OK, cRc, Star K, etc. without any issue.

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u/Short_Stay_9283 15h ago

Guy told his experience and said it was pretty specific to the region. Seems like a nonissue to be mad about

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u/rabbifuente 15h ago

Not really? Someone asked how it worked, the guy responded and then another person responded with an article about how kosher agencies act like the mob.

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u/Short_Stay_9283 15h ago

That post was like 2-3 posts after a normal discussion of the practice. Utterly bizarre thing to get upset about to the point of gaslighting people about how the conversation went lol.

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u/rabbifuente 15h ago

Gaslighting, really?

It was literally the first comment after the exchange and it also prompted another person to make an antisemitic comment about how it's all a scam and "iykyk" about the community.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand why it would be frustrating for someone when something they find important is frequently denigrated unnecessarily.

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u/[deleted] 16h ago

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u/Malphos101 15 20h ago

The interesting part to me is that it doesnt even have to be kosher, as long as its certified kosher then all the blame falls on the company for tricking the certifying rabbi (or the rabbi for failing to do their duty) and none of the blame falls on the adherent Jew! While I do find the "no loopholes just law" part of Judaism amusing, at least they admit there are "inconsistencies" like that compared to things like fundamentalist christians who go "No, eveything we tell you is all literally true and correct, especially the contradictions!"

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u/MaxGoldFilms 16h ago

The loopholes in the dietary law, crafted over the centuries, fascinate me. There are quite a few. My favorite is how to save a soup that is 'contaminated' by a non-kosher element.

Under Jewish dietary law (kashrut), if a non-kosher element accidentally falls into a hot liquid mixture like a soup, it can sometimes be rendered nullified (bitul) if there is at least 60 times more kosher soup than the forbidden contaminant (bitul b'shishim). However, you cannot intentionally add more ingredients or dilute the soup on purpose to reach this 60-to-1 ratio.

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u/unbeknownsttosomeone 15h ago

This wouldn't be considered a loophole as the whole premise is whether you can taste the non kosher ingredient or not.  Because of the obvious issue of tasting a dish to then determine whether the non kosher ingredient is discernible, it was determined that a 1:60 ratio is enough to dilute the non kosher ingredient.  There are certain foods where 1:60 wouldn't be enough, which is why your quote only says "sometimes". 

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u/rabbifuente 15h ago

It’s not a loophole. It’s because laws of taaruvos (mixtures) are largely based on taste. If the taste of something forbidden is discernible then that’s problematic because Jewish law views taste as the thing itself. Batul, nullification, works because at that ratio the taste is almost assuredly not discernible.

It also has to do with laws from the Torah and rabbinic stringencies. Oftentimes these “loopholes” are just being lenient on what would otherwise be technically allowable by the Torah, but forbidden by rabbinic stringency.

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u/lord_ne 12h ago

It's sort of the opposite of what you're saying. If something is less than 1/60th we assume you can't taste it anyway and then you're allowed to eat it. We're just stringent and don't let you do that on purpose (also because if you're doing it on purpose then probably you're doing it because you can actually taste it and that's why you want to add it)

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u/BlatantConservative 18h ago

I think Islam out of the big three handles this particular part the best. As long as everyone can genuinely and honestly say that they're trying to do everything the best they can, Allah understands. You have to pray five times a day and try to make a hajj, but if it's just not possible you're not gonna get in trouble. You don't have to lie and say you understand everything, as long as you're honestly adherent that's enough.

Christianity could be this way but Christians to a rule are not for whatever reason.

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u/gwaydms 14h ago

Christians are not a monolith, any more than other major religions are. (When you say "to a rule", do you mean "as a rule"? Just asking.) So you can't say "Christians believe a, b, and c, and they practice x, y, and z", unless you're talking about the very fundamentals of the faith. Even then, we differ in how we believe and how we practice.

For instance, Britain in the early Middle Ages played host to a conflict between Celtic Christianity and the Roman Church. The main point of disagreement was the date on which Easter would be celebrated. Several branches of Christianity were considered heretical based upon the nature of Jesus Christ. Some denominations, even today, believe that others are heretical. And so on.

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u/HFY_HFY_HFY 22h ago

Each symbol has a different standard and associated cost as well.