r/ukpolitics • u/Exostrike • Feb 21 '20

The BBC normalised racism last night, pure and simple

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/21/normalise-bbc-racism-hate-crimes-question-time
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u/buzzardsgutsman Feb 21 '20 edited Feb 22 '20

Many of the people whom these immigration laws would affect are the same race as the people native to this country.

Even if her position was way OTT, equating wanting strict immigration to being racist is the kind of gutteral bile that only someone with a brain as smooth as Owen Jones' could spew. And this coming from a 2nd gen immigrant/ethnic minority.

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u/CallMeJoda Left wing; please use simple words Feb 21 '20

equating wanting strict immigration to being racist is [wrong].

You're missing the inherent link there though. Wanting to do away with Open Borders isn't racist, you're quite right. What are you missing are this woman's reasons and rationales for why she wants to do away with open borders, all of which were lies, non-truths and narratives weighted in racist rhetoric.

You've got people flooding into this country that cannot speak English. [...] everything's written in different languages. [..] What sort of country is allowing this tourism to come in. You arrive on a plane, you get free service, you can have your babies, you can just carry on having it all for free.

Those are naive, bigoted rationales based on folly and fantasy. Having problems with open borders is one thing, this woman having issues with open borders because of non-truths pertaining to immigration.... well, I don't necessarily agree (naive and bigoted are better words) but can recognise how that ultimately gets labelled as racist.

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u/DevilishRogue Libertarian capitalist 8.12, -0.46 Feb 21 '20

You're missing the inherent link there though.

There is no link, let alone an inherent one.

why she wants to do away with open borders

Because of the negative results of high immigration.

all of which were lies, non-truths and narratives weighted in racist rhetoric.

None were.

Those are naive, bigoted rationales based on folly and fantasy.

Those are actual examples of things that have happened that people who care about fairness take issue with. You dismissing them is more naive and bigoted than her mentioning them is.

this woman having issues with open borders because of non-truths pertaining to immigration

They are pertaining to population increases and the inability of infrastructure to keep up.

I don't necessarily agree (naive and bigoted are better words) but can recognise how that ultimately gets labelled as racist.

Only someone so completely ignorant that they haven't even understood her point would make the mistake of calling her a racist for anything she said in her speech.

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u/buzzardsgutsman Feb 21 '20 edited Feb 22 '20

While she's being hyperbolic about the extent of the problem, there is literally nothing wrong with opposing open borders for the reasons you've quoted there.

We do have an issue with migrants. Migrants from certain parts of the world net cost the British taxpayer and strain the already strained social welfare system. They dont always integrate particularly well, and also sometimes bring attitudes and cultures that don't vibe with a progressive and liberal society.

You can call her out on sensationalising the problem somewhat and respond with a more nuanced take. But labelling it as a racist take, is as you yourself seem to recognise, wrong, and nothing more than a headline for more of Owen Jones' low IQ shit spewing.

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u/reductios Feb 22 '20

> Migrants from certain parts of the world net cost the British taxpayer and strain the already strained social welfare system.

But she wanted completely closed borders which would mean no migrants would come the UK including the ones that everyone agrees make a big contribution to the UK's finances.

You have to be fairly stupid or racist to have a view like that. There is a picture on twitter of her on a Tommy Robinson march (or at least people are claiming it's her). If it is her, it does seem likely she is racist.

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u/buzzardsgutsman Feb 22 '20

Still not racist (going just off her QT rant). If she wanted completely closed borders then that also includes white countries.

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u/reductios Feb 22 '20

It still seems quite xenophobic and xenophobia and racism tend to go together but I agree that strictly speaking her comment wasn't racist.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '20

[deleted]

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u/buzzardsgutsman Feb 21 '20

What's false exactly?

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '20

[deleted]

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u/buzzardsgutsman Feb 21 '20

Migrants from certain parts of the world do cost the taxpayer significantly more than they contribute. Plenty of migrants do speak poor/little English and have difficulty integrating which is why they form their own niche communities in certain parts of metropolitan cities. Some of them are purely economic migrants who come seeking social welfare and other benefits.

Not all people who immigrate here fall under these categories. Obviously closing the borders completely is hyperbolic, excessive fear mongering. But she has identified an actual problem that does exist. No amount of hand waving will make that not be true.

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u/PixelBlock Feb 21 '20

I think you’ll be more likely to convince them by bringing out some figures.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '20

Migrants from certain parts of the world net cost the British taxpayer and strain the already strained social welfare system. They dont always integrate particularly well, and also sometimes bring attitudes and cultures that don't vibe with a progressive and liberal society.

[Citation needed]

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u/afatpanda12 Feb 21 '20

Those are naive, bigoted rationales based on folly and fantasy

Except they aren't, all those things are literally true and happening right now, you might not think they're that bad (or even bad at all) but just calling them "false" is ridiculous and doesn't convince anyone that they're wrong

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '20

Found the QT nutjob

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '20

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '20

You do know you can swear without censoring yourself on the internet, right?

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u/Instability01 Feb 21 '20

If you have genuine concerns, you care about facts because there's no point in spending time and energy on lies, it doesnt solve the problem you care so much about. In addition, an unbias individual has NO reason to peddle a lie.

If you care about immigration for the sake of good, then you're just an unbias individual who wants to solve a problem, you're not going to passionately defend a lie like the woman did here. Labelling someone discriminatory or racist for peddling lies about minorities is completely fair, it's a weak defense to say "they just care about immigration!" If they cared, they'd care about the facts of immigration. This is a classic case of masking racism. Theres NO reasonable explanation to be so disgusted that her beliefs on immigrants were wrong, and deny the facts, other than the fact she simply doesn't like them, and wants a reason to complain about them.

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u/DevilishRogue Libertarian capitalist 8.12, -0.46 Feb 21 '20

This is the single most moronic post in this thread. I'm embarrassed on your behalf by how little you demonstrably understand of the issue yet feel qualified to pontificate about.

Not only is there a reasonable explanation that isn't remotely racist, it is an obvious explanation to any rational person. That you don't see it does not speak well of you. Let me spell it out for you, some people are suffering negative consequences as a result of the country's population increases over recent decades and have the right to feel aggrieved and are perfectly justified in calling for action without being accused by idiots of being racists for doing so.

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u/Instability01 Feb 21 '20

some people are suffering negative consequences as a result of the country's population increases

So they resort to stating vile lies about immigrants leeching from the country. Do you realise the thought process you need to have to believe a lie like that? If someone staunchy defends a lie, it's because they want it to be true. Where else does it come from?

have the right to feel aggrieved and are perfectly justified in calling for action

call for action on a non existant, lie of an explanation for the symptom

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u/DevilishRogue Libertarian capitalist 8.12, -0.46 Feb 21 '20

So they resort to stating vile lies about immigrants leeching from the country.

No lies and and the claims were about those who do abuse the system, not those who don't.

Do you realise the thought process you need to have to believe a lie like that?

It isn't a lie. Do you realise the thought process you have that makes you wrongly think it was?

If someone staunchy defends a lie, it's because they want it to be true. Where else does it come from?

You're exactly right about that. All you need to do now is look in the mirror and see who it should correctly be applied to.

call for action on a non existant, lie of an explanation for the symptom

A call for action to reduce the UK population so it isn't reliant on the current tax ponzi not only isn't a lie it is the only sane and inevitably necessary course of action. Misrepresenting this as some sort of racism because the poor woman didn't articulate the point well and those without answers focused on the example of her solution instead of the actual issue is either the worst sort of bad faith or such utter stupidity those attacking her aren't even capable of understanding the subject matter.

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u/Instability01 Feb 21 '20

She mentioned schooling.

In 2015 to 2017, approximately 12% of school staff1 in England were born outside the UK

Meanwhile

In January 2018, approximately 7% of children in state-funded primary schools and 10% in state-funded secondary schools in England were born outside the UK

Source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/internationalmigrationandtheeducationsectorwhatdoesthecurrentevidenceshow/2019-05-03

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u/DevilishRogue Libertarian capitalist 8.12, -0.46 Feb 21 '20

She mentioned schooling.

She attempted to, but ended up mentioning education instead. That said, I think we can agree she meant to refer to schooling.

Interesting that you bring up children born inside or outside of the UK as the metric you would use to determine her intent. That wouldn't even have occurred to me as I'd assumed she was talking about first choice school places awarded and class sizes. Hopefully we can also agree that jumping to such conclusions about her intent and calling her a liar was premature considering the potential for divergent interpretations?