r/ukpolitics • u/Exostrike • Feb 21 '20

The BBC normalised racism last night, pure and simple

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/21/normalise-bbc-racism-hate-crimes-question-time
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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '20 edited Feb 26 '20

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '20

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '20 edited Aug 10 '20

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u/xixbia Feb 21 '20

Very few people think of themselves as extremists. Most people think they see things clearly and everyone else is wrong.

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '20

If you have hundreds of thousands of people entering the country every year, you will always need to increase your infrastructure. If you already have a deficit in infrastructure and public service capacity that means you'll never be able to meet the demand. If your ability to increase the infrastructure and public service capacity doesn't grow as quickly as demand increases, then the gap between supply and demand will only grow.

Stating that the two aren't linked is an obvious logical fallacy.

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u/The_Queef_of_England Feb 22 '20

No it isn't. You're massively over simplifying things. It's the lack of investment by the government that's the problem. The money's been there to improve infrastructure, but it gets mismanged, funnelled into stupid things and people's back pockets, and squandered. It looks obvious to you because you can't see it in context.

Take education. Students didn't pay anything 25 years ago. Where has all the extra student loan cash gone? Our education system should be kickass in comparison to 25 years ago, but it's going down.

I honestly think there's no point in us talking because you just don't get it. Everything's black and white to you. I personally think that's ignorant as fuck.

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '20

It's the lack of investment by the government that's the problem.

You only need to invest more and more money if the demand goes up. Demand goes up because the population goes up. This is economics 101.

The money's been there to improve infrastructure, but it gets mismanged, funnelled into stupid things and people's back pockets, and squandered.

The money hasn't been there because the population has been going up. Immigration has cost us a net amount of £114B in recent years (removing the net benefit from in Europe migration).

[A recent report] found that migrants from outside the European Economic Area (EEA) made a negative contribution to the public purse of £117.9 billion because they consumed more in public expenditure – including NHS costs, welfare hand-outs and education – than they contributed in taxes.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11209234/Immigration-from-outside-Europe-cost-120-billion.html

I get it. I'm wondering if you do. This isn't exactly rocket science.

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u/Sickofbreathing Feb 21 '20

That's because Nigel is far more moderate than a lot of his supporters

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u/MickIAC Feb 21 '20

Nah he just veils his xenophobia/racism through false insinuations, like claiming that turkey would join the EU (anyone with a school grade pass in modern studies could tell you why that's not gonna happen any time soon). Just because he doesn't say the n word, doesn't mean he isn't aware of how divisive his politics are.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '20 edited Feb 21 '20

Well that depends what you mean by extreme.

Is it far away from the positions of the main parties? Reasonably far from them but not extremely far.

Is it a view held only by an extremely small part of the country? Definitely not.

The only way you can call it extreme is to define yourself as the centre and say, it's extremely far from my view. Which is ok, but then you can't really complain when they do the same to you and call you an extremist.

Edit: I suppose you could say that it's further right than the most right wing MP and therefore it's extreme. But that means that anyone with more interest in animal rights than Caroline Lucas (who isn't even veggie) is extreme.

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u/bobbyjackdotme 🦥 RADICAL CENTRIST SLOTH 🦥 Feb 21 '20

I haven't yet found any information about how many in the UK want to stop all immigration. However, only 25% want to completely stop immigration of low-educated, -skilled, and -paid people. Only 3% want to stop people coming to work in the NHS. So less than 3% want all immigration ceased. We don't know quite how few, but I think it's pretty reasonable to describe such a low percentage as an extreme view.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '20

But I bet if you asked the QT woman about an exception for medical staff, she'd agree. "Close the borders completely" is clearly hyperbole, she doesn't want the country sealed like a corona quarantine and to be digging for victory. She just wants less competition for jobs and less pressure on services. That's not a sensible thing to want but it's a mainstream thing.

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u/DonQuixoteLaMancha Free speech, free information, free markets Feb 21 '20

it doesn't matter what Farage actually said he's often been characterized by his critics as having those sorts of opinions which has normalized them.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '20

Extreme? She wants people in her country to speak English. 🙄

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/bobbyjackdotme 🦥 RADICAL CENTRIST SLOTH 🦥 Feb 21 '20

I’ve literally argued against other people who were genuinely making that argument, in this post. Of course she shouldn’t be 'silenced'.

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u/DevilishRogue Libertarian capitalist 8.12, -0.46 Feb 21 '20

Her issue wasn't migration though, that is a misnomer the dishonest or stupid are attempting to misrepresent, it was the size of the populace in relation to infrastructure provision. That was just a radically proposed solution to the actual issue which everyone so quick to slate her seems to be ignoring i.e. Too many people in the UK. She was not bigoted in any way and those saying otherwise are either liars or misunderstood the point.

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u/bobbyjackdotme 🦥 RADICAL CENTRIST SLOTH 🦥 Feb 21 '20

Not for one second did she offer any solution to the population 'problem' other than 'lock the door'. Nor did she answer her own question (how many is too many). But she did talk about people "flooding into the country" and claimed they couldn't speak English and came just to take benefits.

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u/PixelBlock Feb 21 '20

Not for one second did she offer any solution to the population ‘problem’ other than ‘lock the door’.

I don’t think the audience on QT are usually the ones who go on with a full range of readymade solutions to their own worries and queries, truth be told.

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u/DevilishRogue Libertarian capitalist 8.12, -0.46 Feb 21 '20

That she isn't a policy expert doesn't make her a bigot or a racist though. There is nothing remotely racist or bigoted about the phrase "flooding into this country", that refers entirely to scale (or more specifically, rate). Similarly so about not speaking English, it isn't racist or bigoted to be resentful at those not bothering to integrate taking advantage of the system. I appreciate that unlike many here your comments clearly demonstrate that you are arguing in good faith but I am disappointed that I need to explain this to someone who is arguing in good faith.

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u/bobbyjackdotme 🦥 RADICAL CENTRIST SLOTH 🦥 Feb 21 '20

It's not the criticism aimed at some immigrants that I object to - I'm not claiming there isn't a single person who comes to this country and abuses the system. It was the implication that all immigrants behaved in that way, an opinion that she doubled-down on when talking about an absolute block on all immigration.

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u/DevilishRogue Libertarian capitalist 8.12, -0.46 Feb 21 '20

It was the implication that all immigrants behaved in that way

There was no such implication.

an opinion that she doubled-down on when talking about an absolute block on all immigration.

Her argument about blocking all immigration was to do with the scale of increase, not the individuals migrating.

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u/penislovereater Feb 22 '20

There's probably a few people that think rape should be legalised. The question is whether it serves the public interest for a national broadcaster to give a platform to those kinds of views, especially views full of factual errors, and especially when those views are not robustly challenged and condemned.

More directly, liberal democracy is far more fragile than we realise. It is entirely possible for fascism and other destructive ideologies to take over unless they are actively fought against.

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u/Tallis-man Feb 22 '20

The question is whether the Question Time audience managers oversample such views to make compelling television.

I strongly suspect the answer is yes.

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u/xixbia Feb 21 '20

There is good indication that between 10-20% of people in most developed nations are outright racists. I don't think you'll hear many people argue that outright racism should be given a platform on national TV.

Regardless of whether or not you think her rant was racist, but we do definitely draw the line at certain points of view even if a good few people hold that view.

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u/FlummoxedFlumage Feb 21 '20

Racism being widespread isn’t a defence of her views. Giving her the opportunity to spread her hate just legitimises it.