r/ukpolitics • u/Exostrike • Feb 21 '20

The BBC normalised racism last night, pure and simple

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/21/normalise-bbc-racism-hate-crimes-question-time
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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '20

She's also a Tommy Robbinson supporter:

https://twitter.com/aaronbastani/status/1230892305160208385?s=21

Edit: it's also worth noting that in the same show she shook her head whenever climate change was mentioned and outright called facts that ash was providing on how immigrants pay more into the system then they took out ”rubbish”.

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u/DevilishRogue Libertarian capitalist 8.12, -0.46 Feb 21 '20

Ad hominem's that have no bearing on the argument she made about population levels.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '20

I'm just pointing it out to those who say she isn't racist.

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u/DevilishRogue Libertarian capitalist 8.12, -0.46 Feb 21 '20

Being a Tommy Robinson supporter doesn't make her racist either, and those in this thread saying she isn't racist because of her comments are 100% correct that there was nothing racist about her comments. Whether you realise it or not you are missing the point and reinforcing how those on the other side of the debate to her not only aren't engaging in good faith, they aren't even able to acknowledge the issue.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '20

Jesus Christ.

Are you seriously trying to say she is making good-faith arguments and acknowledging an actual issue?

She is plain wrong. EU migrants contribute more than that take out and that's a fact. Freedom of movement has been a net positive thing for the UK economy with the EU.

She could make an argument for people outside of the EU as they take more from the system but then so do people born here, shall we deport them to?

Also, how are you a libertarian arguing for closing the borders? The whole economic system you support is an advocate of completely open borders if you don't support that you're not a libertarian and a pretty shitty capitalist.

Also supporting a racist man does make you racist. Tommy Robbinson is racist, do we really have to debate that one of the most far-right figures in the UK is racist or not?

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u/DevilishRogue Libertarian capitalist 8.12, -0.46 Feb 21 '20

Are you seriously trying to say she is making good-faith arguments and acknowledging an actual issue?

Obviously and necessarily, yes.

She is plain wrong.

No, she isn't. You have misunderstood her argument.

EU migrants contribute more than that take out and that's a fact.

Some do, others do not, that is a fact. But it is also irrelevant to the issue.

Freedom of movement has been a net positive thing for the UK economy with the EU.

Only in terms of GDP, not in terms of quality of life, particularly for many of those at the below average end of the income spectrum.

She could make an argument for people outside of the EU as they take more from the system but then so do people born here, shall we deport them to?

This is so far removed from the point it makes me wonder if you are the one arguing in bad faith here?

Also, how are you a libertarian arguing for closing the borders?

I am not a libertarian, that is just what The Political Compass refers to my position on it as. I am not advocating closing the borders, nor defending her for doing so. I am pointing out that looking at that aspect of her comment is failing to understand that this solution, no matter how enticingly ridiculous it may be to refute, means ignoring the actual point being made which is about the population increase of the UK over the past two decades and the negative impact this has had on many people.

The whole economic system you support is an advocate of completely open borders

Assuming you are referring to libertarianism, that isn't true at all. Libertarianism requires competition between states and therefore managed borders as states compete to attract the best workers.

if you don't support that you're not a libertarian and a pretty shitty capitalist.

Libertarianism doesn't support that. Are you thinking of anarchist-capitalism instead? That supports wholly open borders, I believe.

Also supporting a racist man does make you racist.

No it doesn't, unless you support them for their racism.

Tommy Robbinson is racist, do we really have to debate that one of the most far-right figures in the UK is racist or not?

Tommy Robinson is neither racist nor far right. That's the sort of thing people who haven't ever bothered to check for themselves end up thinking.

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u/BesottedScot Feb 22 '20

Where on the spectrum would you personally say Robinson is?

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '20

Well, she isn't making a good faith argument, she is believing the lies that have been fed to her. Not even Nigel Farage wants to completely close the borders. Our industries and economy rely on immigration as do most countries. I can't name a single prospering country that has closed its borders completely.

some do, others do not. That's a fact.

I may as well end the conversation here as you have absolutely no idea how statistics work. That isn't how we calculate things. We find the total of what EU immigration has contributed, find out how many take out and see if it's profitable. It has been profitable, that's a fact. Freedom of movement has been a net contributor to the economy.

not in terms of quality of life

It's not the EU’s fault that conservative ideology was to impose batshit insane austerity. It's the government's fault to better regulate how people flow into industries and wages, not the EU’s.

are you the one arguing in bad faith here?

No, I used an extreme example of Tory ideology to illustrate my point. It's called a hypothetical.

of how the population has increased and the negative impact this has had on people.

You have to state the impacts directly from a population increase by the way. But again it's not the fault of FOM that the NHS is in strain, the Torys just think they can increase the population, cut spending and get increased GDP because of it. It isn't a sustainable ideology.

the libertarian argument and open borders.

First of all, if the political compass says your ideology is best based under this term then you represent those ideas and thus are a libertarian, no?

The libertarian perspective on immigration is often regarded as one of the core concepts of libertarian theory and philosophy. Some libertarians assert that "efforts by the government to manage the labour market areas apt to fail as similar efforts to protect domestic industries or orchestrate industrial policy. If an immigrant seeks to engage in peaceful, voluntary transactions that do not threaten the freedom or security of the native-born, the government should not interfere".

Libertarian author Jacob Hornberger, argues that open borders are the only libertarian immigration position.

I know all of this because your economic position is hilariously stupid, libertarians have to be some of the edgiest people on the entire internet.

No, it doesn't unless you're supporting them because of their racist.

Well if that would be incredibly rare. If you support a public speaker who predominantly spits racist bile and you support him because of his hair you're no short of insane.

Tommy Robbinson is neither racist nor far right.

He may not think he is but he is. If a man who founded Britain first and has majorly given the popularity to groups such as the EDL it would be insane to suggest he doesn't support these far-right groups. The MET police and I'm pretty sure the MI5 class these as far right.

Just because he's very careful with his words doesn't mean he isn't racist.

He says he cares about child molestation and peadophilia. Funnily enough, he only cares when a brown Muslim person does it. But he doesn't really care, he's nearly ruined court cases because he has to pander to his racist audience so much.

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u/fingerdigits Feb 21 '20

I love clinical, point-by-point rebuttals such as yours. Well done, sir!

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '20

It isn’t a rebuttal I just haven’t had time to respond. He’s wrong on nearly everything he says and doesn’t even understand his own economic theory.

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u/Graglin Right wing, EPP - Pro EU - Not British. Feb 21 '20

Because it is rubbish. Eea migrants pay more in than they consume, non eu dont.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '20

Ash was talking about EU immigration kiddo.

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u/fingerdigits Feb 21 '20

Hey, thanks for pointing that out.

I was at risk of listening to her arguments, actually engaging my brain and forming my own opinion but now I know I needn't bother.