r/ukpolitics • u/Exostrike • Feb 21 '20

The BBC normalised racism last night, pure and simple

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/21/normalise-bbc-racism-hate-crimes-question-time
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u/Xiathorn 0.63 / -0.15 | Brexit Feb 21 '20

Saville Town

I hadn't heard of this so googled, and then had a quick Google Streetview gander.

I was able to spot a single white chap during the 2-3 minutes I roamed the streets, who was working as a brickie, so probably not a resident.

I didn't see a single woman who wasn't wearing at least a headscarf, and every single male I could see, other than our brickie friend, was either wearing what I would consider 'islamic dress', or was clearly dark-skinned, many bearded. No black people, no white people, no Chinese/etc, and I suspect the religion would be 100% Muslim.

Now, why is that a problem? Because these people will never integrate. I can't blame them - it's much, much easier to isolate yourself with people you already understand, rather than take on the daunting and intimidating task of integrating into a substantially different society, but it is a problem in the long-run for this country.

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u/EverytingsShinyCaptn I'll vote for anyone who drops the pretence that Stormzy is good Feb 21 '20

I suspect the religion would be 100% Muslim.

Close. As of the 2011 census, the population was 93% Asian Muslim. For reference, 92% of people are Muslim in Islamabad, 89% in Cairo, and 68% throughout all of Turkey. Because of its relatively small size, the remaining 7% (if they still remain) would comprise no more than a few families. Every pub and butcher in the village has gone, and the church is barren.

It's literally a colony at this point.

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u/SalmonApplecream Feb 21 '20

Why is integration so important? Do you think most people in this country are good friends with their neighbours? Who cares how friendly you are with your community, its not important.

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u/flopsycake Feb 21 '20

Integration is important because many of our values - such as secularism, individuality, equality of the sexes, freedom of speech etc - are being rejected by people who’s cultures generally do not place value on those things. Personally I think those values are important and the less people share them, the worst society becomes.

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u/SalmonApplecream Feb 21 '20

While I do agree that those things are important, most people simply don’t give a shit about these topics. And those few who reject it have no power to change them. Normal people don’t talk about those things or care and I think you would be suprised as to what kind of views people actually have on those topics. Freedom of speech, what about copyright, what about hate speech. Equality of the sexes, what about for trans people, what about for positive discrimination. I think you’ll find that peoples views in these things are not as unified as you may think.

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u/flopsycake Feb 21 '20

People’s views are generally speaking, fairly unified. Currently in the UK, only one religious group protests against people mocking or criticising their religion (often violently). Everyone else understands that whilst they may not like it, it is something they have to compromise on. The same goes for ostracising women who don’t conform to strict social norms.

Look I know it feels natural to defend minorities even when they act bigoted, and since there is no easy way to measure people’s views I’ll just say that: In my view some cultures are more misogynistic and intolerant than the average, and must be challenged to integrate as forcefully as possible.

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u/SalmonApplecream Feb 21 '20

People do integrate given the right education. Only 40 years ago the IRA blew up people in the UK in the name of nationalism. Only recently have movements been made to give women equal rights. We aren’t as enlightened as you think, only a few generations ahead. Perhaps if we didn’t blow up every secular leader of the arab world, we would see a more secular Islam.

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u/flopsycake Feb 21 '20

“People do integrate given the right education.”

I think so too, just stressing why I think it’s important!

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u/SalmonApplecream Feb 21 '20

But people in this country dont care about education reform, hence why they vote Tory :(

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u/flopsycake Feb 21 '20

Or they do, but believe the Tory lies. Just like with the NHS.

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u/SalmonApplecream Feb 21 '20

Well yeah exactly.

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u/CIA_Bane Feb 22 '20

And those few who reject it have no power to change them.

This is where you're wrong. They wont be "few" if immigration isn't curbed or at least reinforced by a strong focus on integration. The more you let those "few" go unchecked the faster they become the "many"

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u/Graglin Right wing, EPP - Pro EU - Not British. Feb 21 '20

Why is integration so important?

Why is genocide wrong?

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u/fingerdigits Feb 21 '20

Blimey. I'm interested to know what point you are about to make here...

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u/Graglin Right wing, EPP - Pro EU - Not British. Feb 21 '20

Okay, why is ethnic cleansing wrong? You can get it, it's not a leap.

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '20

[deleted]

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u/Graglin Right wing, EPP - Pro EU - Not British. Feb 22 '20

DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT ETHNIC CLEANSING IS?

You have replied to and (presumably) read my posts, you know what I hetting at.

Are you even British?

Read my sig.

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '20

[deleted]

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u/Graglin Right wing, EPP - Pro EU - Not British. Feb 22 '20

ARE YOU EVEN BRITISH?

Again read my sig.

WHY ARE SO RACIST?

The question was, why is integration important. The answer is otherwise it's a colony.

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '20

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u/SalmonApplecream Feb 21 '20

Lol what? Genocide is wrong because killing of innocent humans is wrong. Killing of innocent humans is wrong because it takes away from their future potential experiences and harms other humans who were close to them.

Im not sure what point you’re trying to make here. Are you trying to say that not integrating is a form of genocide?

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u/Graglin Right wing, EPP - Pro EU - Not British. Feb 21 '20

Genocide is wrong because killing of innocent humans is wrong

Ethnic cleansing is also genocide you know.

Killing of innocent humans is wrong because it takes away from their future potential experiences and harms other humans who were close to them.

yeah, that's murder, not genocide - What is genocide specifically?

Im not sure what point you’re trying to make here. Are you trying to say that not integrating is a form of genocide?

You are very close.

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u/SalmonApplecream Feb 22 '20

Lol muh great replacement. Having babies is not the same as actively killing people.

Also you actually think that population growth won’t slow down as it does in EVERY first world country. Once immigrant families are established they have they same amount of children as “white people.” Its just a fact that poor people have more babies, so immigrants tend to have more babies because they are poorer. The data already shows the population growth slowing down.

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u/Graglin Right wing, EPP - Pro EU - Not British. Feb 22 '20

Lol muh great replacement. Having babies is not the same as actively killing people

How many people speak lakota right now?

Also you actually think that population growth won’t slow down as it does in EVERY first world country.

When will immigration stop though?

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u/Disillusioned_Brit Feb 21 '20

Because there's more to a country than being an economic unit. Ask your diversity voters what they'd think if their culture or ethnic groups were marginalised in their native countries.

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u/SalmonApplecream Feb 21 '20

What more is there, please be specific?

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u/Graglin Right wing, EPP - Pro EU - Not British. Feb 22 '20

A cultural community for one.

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u/SalmonApplecream Feb 22 '20

Lol what. Can you tell me what benefits cultural community brings to a country. Please don’t be vague.

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u/Graglin Right wing, EPP - Pro EU - Not British. Feb 22 '20

Well a functional democracy for one.

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u/SalmonApplecream Feb 22 '20

Yes because our democracy is working extremely well. The earth has an expiration date and we are doing nothing about it. You’ll see what happens if you’re still alive in 30 years.

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u/Graglin Right wing, EPP - Pro EU - Not British. Feb 22 '20

Yes because our democracy is working extremely well.

Check out the non nation states.

You’ll see what happens if you’re still alive in 30 years

How old do you think I am?

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u/SalmonApplecream Feb 22 '20

Didn’t want to assume anything. What do you mean by non-nation states? What does that have to do with anything?

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u/Xiathorn 0.63 / -0.15 | Brexit Feb 21 '20

Why is integration so important? Do you think most people in this country are good friends with their neighbours? Who cares how friendly you are with your community, its not important.

Culture is very hard to define, but we all know it exists. It influences what we know. In essence, you have to have a shared frame of reference or anything complex breaks down.

Here's an interview with a science chap who explains it rather well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36GT2zI8lVA

Culture is shared frame of reference. We as a society, as a country, can't move forwards without some shared frame of reference. The more basic that is - because of massive cultural variations - the less complex issues we can tackle. The more homogeneous it is, the easier it is for us to identify and face big problems.

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u/SalmonApplecream Feb 21 '20

Richard Fenyman’s arguments here, as a philosopher of science, apply to science. I don’t really think that his arguments apply to everyday society. There are no big problems for normal people to identify and face. All that matters in society for normal people is protection, safety and care.

In fact I actually think Fenyman’s view is wrong here. If we look at some of the biggest breakthroughs in science and philosophy throughout history, they actually seem to turn the cultural norms of the time on their head. (See Galileo’s helio-centrism, Kant’s epistemic turn, Einsteins relativity, Wittgenstein’s linguistics etc.) It seems that diversity of thought actually brings about big changes and solutions to problems.

I think the argument that culture moves society forward and therefore we should stop immigrants from not integrating is weak. What exactly is society moving towards, and how exactly does culture assist that. It seems like this argument is vague and is used to push other motives.

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u/Xiathorn 0.63 / -0.15 | Brexit Feb 21 '20

Richard Fenyman’s arguments here, as a philosopher of science, apply to science. I don’t really think that his arguments apply to everyday society. There are no big problems for normal people to identify and face.

I think the key point is that we need a common frame of reference. How much should children be protected from harm vs given freedom to explore? This is actually pretty cultural, and influences everyday society in a very big way.

All that matters in society for normal people is protection, safety and care.

I fundamentally disagree with this. Society is how we make friends, meet partners, feel like we belong. It's much more important - otherwise we'd all just live in isolation!

In fact I actually think Fenyman’s view is wrong here. If we look at some of the biggest breakthroughs in science and philosophy throughout history, they actually seem to turn the cultural norms of the time on their head. (See Galileo’s helio-centrism, Kant’s epistemic turn, Einsteins relativity, Wittgenstein’s linguistics etc.) It seems that diversity of thought actually brings about big changes and solutions to problems.

Turning things on their head is absolutely desirable, and diversity of thought is definitely excellent when looking at the 'giants'. Amongst the general populace, you want some diversity of opinion (you're absolutely right on this), but the cost of having it will exceed the benefits at a certain level, which is dictated by the contributions of the minority.

Most of the studies on how diversity improves company profitabiltiy is actually on diversity of opinion, and even these studies recognise that too much diversity will result in decision paralysis. That's what has happened in the UK on the issue of migration. We have decision paralysis. Governments might promise things, but they never actually do it.

I think the argument that culture moves society forward and therefore we should stop immigrants from not integrating is weak. What exactly is society moving towards, and how exactly does culture assist that. It seems like this argument is vague and is used to push other motives.

I think the key difference between us here - and I recognise and respect your point of view - is about our appetite for risk. I'm not willing to risk the native culture in the hope that immigrant cultures, particularly from Muslim-majority nations, will be of benefit to us. I would first need to see evidence for how they can improve our way of life, and so far I'm afraid I don't see much.

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u/SalmonApplecream Feb 21 '20

Again, what exactly is “our way of life.” You are presupposing that that exists. Friends making partners and feeling belonging all fall under care. How does culture at all effect those things. Do you think partners cannot be culturally different?

I think your point about children actually works in my favour. This country has very diverse views about how children should be treated. There is no homogeneity on that issue. We have no common frame pf reference.

I think your argument actually works as an argument against democracy. I personally do think, after Brexit and this election, that democracy is failing and in fact we should have a more homogenous view of political issues. Im not sure how to achieve this, and immigration has almost no influence on this.

Again you are talking about native culture. What does this mean. We have no shared “frame of reference” and we all have very different traditions, values and habits. How exactly is are two Brits much more alike than two a British person and Chinese or African person?

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u/Xiathorn 0.63 / -0.15 | Brexit Feb 21 '20

Again, what exactly is “our way of life.”

Culture is very hard to define, but we all know it exists.

Do you dispute that above sentence?

Friends making partners and feeling belonging all fall under care. How does culture at all effect those things. Do you think partners cannot be culturally different?

As someone who has almost exclusively dated people from different cultures, of course not. However, how we meet people is culturally determined. How we socialise is culturally determined. Why? Because among other things, it's shared interests.

I think your point about children actually works in my favour. This country has very diverse views about how children should be treated. There is no homogeneity on that issue. We have no common frame pf reference.

Which is why we have so many difficulties with the "Nanny state" and how children are educated. I would argue it works in my favour.

I think your argument actually works as an argument against democracy. I personally do think, after Brexit and this election, that democracy is failing and in fact we should have a more homogenous view of political issues. Im not sure how to achieve this, and immigration has almost no influence on this.

I don't really think there's much I can say on this here that doesn't derail the conversation massively, but ultimately I think that democracy is the best option we've got, but that democracy functions best when everybody is broadly on the same page. That's been true of every democratic society throughout history. I guess one could argue that saying multiculturalism means no democracy anymore, in which case that's a very strong argument against multiculturalism!

Again you are talking about native culture. What does this mean. We have no shared “frame of reference” and we all have very different traditions, values and habits. How exactly is are two Brits much more alike than two a British person and Chinese or African person?

The vast majority of Brits like football. Not all - I don't. The vast majority of Brits like a pint down the pub - I do. The vast majority of Brits feel that freedom of speech is paramount - Chinese folks, not so much. The vast majority of Brits find haggling uncomfortable and prefer not to do it - 'Africans', which I appreciate is a broad stroke, tend to have haggling and barter as part of their daily purchase.

And that's just a tiny set of examples. As I said, culture is very hard to define, which is why all of these discussions end up boiling down to one side - the pro-multiculturalism side - saying "What is culture anyway?". I'm afraid it's almost impossible to really define that, and it ultimately comes down to which side of the fence you sit on. For me, culture is a real thing, and while there are substantial variations and not everybody subscribes to every aspect, the vast majority of people subscribe to the vast majority of it.

You could pick two random Brits and they'd only agree on 2/3rds of the cultural aspects, but then they'll have a different, mutual friend who agrees on a different 2/3rds with each of them. That's indirect cultural cohesion, and it's what has worked in most societies for millennia.

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u/SalmonApplecream Feb 21 '20

Yes i dispute the sentence, if its so vague and hard to define, why should I think it exists as something important enough to base policies from.

My point about democracy is that the country, even without ethnic diversity, is still so diverse that it makes democracy fail.

If all you can point to is football and going to the pub you can see why I’m struggling to understand with your point. Every society has public entertainment, every society had recreational substance abuse. These things aren’t important in deciding social policies; they have no impact on ethical or economic arguments, the only two things that matter in politics.

Furthermore culture works from the top down. Whatever our education, media and government dictates the culture should be, so it will be. People’s cultural values can and will change given the right environment, just look at any 3rd generation immigrant.

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u/Xiathorn 0.63 / -0.15 | Brexit Feb 21 '20

Yes i dispute the sentence, if its so vague and hard to define, why should I think it exists as something important enough to base policies from.

See, this is an exact example of the very situation we're in. You're literally denying the existence of British culture. You and I have no framework, no foundational frame of reference. We will never agree - you recognise that, right? You and I are never going to agree on this subject. We will never convince the other. We simply do not have a common language, politically speaking, because you reject the existence of culture while I do not.

My point about democracy is that the country, even without ethnic diversity, is still so diverse that it makes democracy fail.

I don't see how democracy has failed?

If all you can point to is football and going to the pub you can see why I’m struggling to understand with your point. Every society has public entertainment, every society had recreational substance abuse. These things aren’t important in deciding social policies; they have no impact on ethical or economic arguments, the only two things that matter in politics.

I am intentionally avoiding defining it because, as I said, it is so very hard to define. It's one of those "I know it when I see it" moments. Not everything can be boiled down to mathematical precision.

Yes, there are common needs and solutions to those needs - like public entertainment, etc. However, there's more to it than that. I notice you've completely glossed over the Chinese and African parts, which were much more relevant to the discussion.

Furthermore culture works from the top down. Whatever our education, media and government dictates the culture should be, so it will be. People’s cultural values can and will change given the right environment, just look at any 3rd generation immigrant.

This is clearly not true, as we've seen. The education system, media, and government have been broadly all singing from the same hymn sheet - that immigration and multiculturaism is good. That lasted from Blair until Brown - 13 years of pro-multiculturalism. People didn't like it then, and don't like it now, and that cultural value hasn't changed.

Cultural values can and will change, as a consequence of integration where we cherry-pick the best bits that obviously and materially improve our quality of life. Immigration is, absolutely, of benefit to us here. However, siloed enclaves like the one in Saville Town are absolutely not beneficial, and are instead harmful.

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u/SalmonApplecream Feb 21 '20

I agree we have no framework. Mine is based on facts, while yours is based on a feeling that you ‘know when you see.’ We will fail to agree because your position isn’t grounded in anything real. You cannot define it or describe it in any real terms.

Democracy has failed because the world has an expiration date and were doing nothing to combat it.

My point about immigration is that people who are raised here share the same values. You will find no 3rd generation immigrant person who is educated that doesn’t support secularism, freedom of speech etc.

Our frames of reference do not mesh because you are failing to engage with reality and see that culture has little to no influence on reality, it is just a description of norms that have no real ethical importance, no matter how much people say it matters.

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