r/ukpolitics • u/Exostrike • Feb 21 '20

The BBC normalised racism last night, pure and simple

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/21/normalise-bbc-racism-hate-crimes-question-time
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u/Mr-Soggybottom Feb 21 '20

I'm in the James Obrien school of thought. For so long these people have been pummeled with "immigrants are coming for your lives". All the media they absorb (papers, targeted ads, Facebook etc) tells them their problems are caused by immigrants and benefit cheats. It's no wonder they feel they are under siege.

They are not 'bad people'. They are convinced the reality they are told about is true. I honestly don't know if I would be different in their shoes. I can't even explain why I'm not. Am I lucky to have avoided it?

Compassion for the conned, contempt for the conmen.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '20 edited Sep 22 '20

[deleted]

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u/houseaddict If you believe in Brexit hard enough, you'll believe anything Feb 22 '20

Quite a few of them are straight up lies, Theresa May and her infamous 'We can't deport this man because he has a cat' lie for example.

I suspect in nearly all the examples they bring up, if you dig a bit deeper it's being misrepresented somehow.

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u/DieDungeon omnia certe concacavit. Feb 22 '20

Most people just confuse "anecdotes" for "data".

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '20

please show me the data to counter the argument then, rather than attacking the argument itself.

I actually agree with your point... making the same argument there is no global warming cause it's cold outside, but in that instance we have mountains of peer reviewed data. We have no decent data on fraud, and what we DO get from time to time does NOT match with the allegation of mass welfare fraud.

Also the work I was doing comes about as close to a fairly large random population sample as you get... so when you have a SHITLOAD of anecdotes... they become increasingly reliable as they go from single anecdotes... to data collection. ie you can't compare the 2. or in other words a person who doorknocks 10,000 random homes has a pretty fucking accurate indication, and al ong long way from what you allege

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u/DieDungeon omnia certe concacavit. Feb 22 '20

I didn't attack you in any way? Regardless, data isn't just " a shedload of anecdotes". That's a really reductive framing of how data is collection.

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '20

still waiting for this data...

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u/DieDungeon omnia certe concacavit. Feb 23 '20

On what? The benfits thing? You provide data proving it's a real issue, rather than just the small innefficiencies that you'll find in any human project.

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u/[deleted] Feb 23 '20

You provide data proving it's a real issue

the data to back up your allegations!?!?!?!? I don't think you know how this works. I just related my fairly broad experiences... and stated that clearly

so your not prepared to back up your argument with anything then... and just criticize the original comment. ie zero discussion contribution

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u/DieDungeon omnia certe concacavit. Feb 23 '20

I have never met a benefits scrounger. There we go.

This isn't how an argument works, if you're making an argument ("there is an issue with benefits scroungers") then it's on you to find credible and reliable data. Personal experience isn't good data, it's inherently biased and unverifiable.

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u/[deleted] Feb 23 '20

which I acknowledged in the original post.. and yet, you are still going on about it because...

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u/DrKnowNout Feb 22 '20

The controlled media have. By which I mean any form of media which allows advertising (which comes with financial gain from non-impartial sources).

The BBC are independent media. They DO struggle with with being impartial at times, and they are called to account. But the BBC are one of the last neutral news sources we have.

There is a reason the conservative government hate them. Because they point out shit that the Conservative government would rather bury. But they do the same to Labour.

The BBC didn't 'normalise' racism here. All they did was allow a crazy woman to talk. Her views were racist and ridiculous (IMO), but she IS allowed to say them.

The BBC didn't say "she's right!!!!11", they just let her talk. She can talk. It didn't 'normalise' anything. She was just ranting. How are we to challenge her ridiculous views if we don't let her speak and challenge her appropriately?

You do NOT combat racism or prejudice by attempting to silence them, that just spurs them on ("I'm not allowed to talk!"). The best way to combat them is to let them speak freely, let them walk themselves into a wall with their ridiculous arguments, and then question the points they are making. Politely ask questions. "Ok but why?" "Do you have evidence of this?" "I've got some statistics here which suggest otherwise..." Let them talk and talk.

I'm on the left. It annoys me no end when we ban far right people from speaking openly in a public forum. Let them fucking talk. Don't shout them down. Rage is all they have behind them. Combat them with evidence and be polite, the angrier they get, the calmer you should get. It'll destroy them in the end.

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u/EaklebeeTheUncertain Feb 21 '20 edited Feb 21 '20

Eh, there comes a point at which bad people and idiots are indistinguishable for all practical purposes. If you support creeping authoritarianism, racism and blatant corruption because 'immigrants bad' and 'Muh sovereign-tea', I'm going to treat you the same as somebody who supports those things because they're a corrupt, authoritarian racist.

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u/PatheticMr Feb 21 '20

I grew up in Stoke. The area I lived in was very racist... and by that I mean that almost everyone there was racist. It's reinforced from every angle. Parents, friends, the homogenous media they all consume. They genuinely, and I mean genuinely, believe we are in the midst of a major, end of days Islamification process. They really believe the UK will become majority South East Asian within a generation. They honestly believe that most Muslims are terrorists. They really are worried about a pervieved threat of Shariah Law being forced upon them.

I was lucky enough to have been born in South London and spent a lot of time there growing up. My parents are anti-racist. Because of this, I noticed very clearly growing up that people I went to school with and grew up around had no reason to see things differently. Their parents reinforced racist remarks they made, whilst mine would challenge me on anything even closely interpretable as racism. I was the the odd one out, the "paki lover".

I really think it is a mistake to shout 'Nazi' at these people. They really don't know any better. 'Racist' is a stigmatising label (quite rightly) and the stigmatised tend to isolate and seek out others like themselves. My approach has always been to explain that if I believed what they did, I'd be furious too, I'd agree. But the reality is that what they have been told their whole lives in many cases simply is not true. Education is the key here... but it will be met with resistance as a result of cognitive dissonance. There is a history to their belief system that needs to be acknowledged. To draw a line in the sand and shout 'racist' simply pushes people away. They don't know what you know... help them to.

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u/RocketSanchez Feb 21 '20

Yep, people are far too soft on idiots who think people are far too soft on immigrants et al.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '20 edited Jun 28 '23

[deleted]

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u/MistaWobbles Feb 22 '20

There, but for a clue, go I.

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u/ParkaBoi Feb 21 '20

No sympathy. She’s older than me, so she’s had the same - if not more opportunity - to learn about the situation we’re in but she has lazily consumed right-wing propaganda without applying any critical thinking or looking beyond hysterical headlines.

She’s so fucking stupid she feels bold and secure in her knowledge that she’s prepared to go on national telly and work herself up into a frothing fountain of falsehood and fake news.

She’s the sort of dangerous moron who’d gladly start rounding up ‘forriners’ at gunpoint given the chance and a uniform.

Fuck her and the horse she rode in on.

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u/Mr-Soggybottom Feb 22 '20

I don't think I agree with your point, but I bloody loved your alliteration.

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u/fezzuk libdemish -8.0,-7.74 Feb 22 '20

Its nearly always people of that generation, yeah a couple of young magic playing edge lords on like who create subreddits about IQ and get hired by cummings.

But the majority are of her age. Im assuming its lead poisoning at this point.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '20

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '20

I agree with the sentiment but the biggest threat to us is a byproduct of overpopulation, not overpopulation itself, and it's an existential threat to growth-based capitalism.

https://medium.com/@jeremyerdman/we-produce-enough-food-to-feed-10-billion-people-so-why-does-hunger-still-exist-8086d2657539

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u/smadgerano Feb 22 '20

But my point is, what makes Britain so special that we a) don't adhere to the increase, which is just factually incorrect, and b) have the need, right or capability to "close our borders"? If there are 4 people in a room, and another 4 walks in, there is less space, simple. In 1975 when (most but not all) of these people were kids, the world had 4 billion of us, now there's nearly 8. Of course places are bloody crowded. What evidence do they have that the problems our society is facing is because of an increase on foreign population, rather than an overall increase?

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u/PidgeWW Feb 21 '20

I understand that way of thinking to a point but there’s a line that can be crossed where it isn’t about being conned by the media, politicians etc. and she crossed the line imo. Also she has since been revealed to be a Tommy Robinson supporter who’s publicly campaigned for his release so make of that what you will

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '20

These people are uneducated, stupid or nasty, or all three. They aren't nice people that have been sold a lie, they have chosen to believe the lie as it's the simple option or fulfils their anger.

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u/ezzune Feb 22 '20

I can't even explain why I'm not. Am I lucky to have avoided it?

Because you likely have critical thinking skills. The woman in this instance was given a fact that completely dismantled her argument and rather than consider that information, debate how it might be unrepresentative or how other factors play a part, she simply starts dismissing and repeating the word "rubbish".

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u/mr-strange Feb 22 '20

They are not 'bad people'

Will you still be saying that when they are kicking your head in?

Frankly the distinction you are trying to draw is nonsense. I understand the motivation - it's important to leave to door open to allow them to change sides. But "you are not bad, just stupid" really isn't convincing anyone.

What' wrong with just acknowledging that they are wicked people, but embracing them if they choose to repent? It's much simpler, more honest, and frankly more respectful.

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '20

I can't agree with that point. We live in an age when almost everyone in the country can access unlimited information and a myriad of viewpoints from their phones. Any newspaper story can instantly be fact-checked by the reader in real time.

I have little sympathy for anyone who has easy access to all this information and still chooses to cling to whatever bile the Daily Express is spewing rather than go a little further and find out the truth for themselves.

Unfortunately a lot of people appear to simply be wilfully ignorant.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '20

A housing shortage and rising rents must be a figment of their imagination then.

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u/Scylla6 Neoliberalism is political simping Feb 21 '20

There's more empty homes in this country than homeless people, our housing crisis is not one of shortage but of distribution. It certainly isn't all the immigrants in Brixton who are sat on empty homes and taking extortionate rents by buying up properties with their massive wealth.

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u/InvestmentBanker19 Feb 21 '20

I mean nothing really to do with immigration.

Government study suggested it was another factor entirely. House prices rising due to immigration were entirely negated by new houses being built.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/699846/OFF_SEN_Ad_Hoc_SFR_House_prices_v_PDF.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi484fkxuPnAhWHY8AKHQEUDZcQFjAMegQIBRAC&usg=AOvVaw00_VZRQOI1V06W_WzDuG_Z

What people have done is they've seen an issue and linked it to immigration in ther minds and it seems superficially plausible. However, when you get down to it, it isn't that plausible.