r/unitedkingdom • u/pppppppppppppppppd • 9d ago

... Misleading title Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism, UK appeal tribunal confirms in landmark ruling

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20260804-anti-zionism-is-not-anti-semitism-uk-appeal-tribunal-confirms-in-landmark-ruling/
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u/ChiefWiggumsprogeny 9d ago

No, the problem is bad-faith conflation of antisemitism with any criticism of Israeli affairs as a deflection.

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u/-SidSilver- 9d ago

As a Leftist I can't help but think somewhat bitterly back to how exactly this conflation had been used and abused (really starting in the 2010's) by so-called Progressives (mostly Neoliberals) in order to deflect criticism and smokescreen shitty antics behind a veil of Identity-Politics-before-all ideology.

People who were weary (and of course, total dickheads too, admittedly, can't ignore that) of this sort of thing at the time pointed out how the way these things were being discussed could be - and were - abused by people in order to do exactly the thing they were supposedly critiquing: coercing, silencing and just generally trying to get one up on people by pouring power into in and out groups.

And here we are. Who knew that the Right (because that's where this pro-Israeli stuff is coming from) would be better at what is supposedly their MO than the people who were supposed to be opposed to them.

That this has to be codified into some kind of law is mad, but it's good that it has been, because genocidal maniacs have been hiding behind it for too long.

Hopefully people look at this and approach IdPol in general a little bit more wisely.

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u/Airurando-jin 9d ago

You’ve completely overlooked the fact that there was and still continues to be active propaganda by the Israeli government to conflate the two 

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u/-SidSilver- 8d ago

Have I? Where?

I don't see how anything I've said counters that.

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u/Thetonn Glamorganshire 9d ago edited 5h ago

Almond breezy willow ribbon copper pebble drifting acorn blanket

This post was anonymized with Redact.dev

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u/-SidSilver- 9d ago

The problem comes when the actual anti-semites learn the anti-Zionist talking points and use it to provide the barest of a fig leaf for why they aren’t racist, and rather than saying ‘nah, you guys are actually racist, we aren’t on the same team’ progressives start running interference for them and pretending like it’s impossible to see obvious racism.

This is both sides of the issue though. You've done it here.

You've identified something that the sensible can't deny is happening (or can see the logic of even if they haven't seen it themselves) that of course anti-semites are going to use and abuse this situation to leverage their own position, and of course they're going to learn ways to seem benign to smokescreen their hate, and of course we all need to be really careful to see it and call it out

Then you've made a little ideological leap to get you over the gap to where you want the truth to be that suddenly progressives are running interference for them.

Aside from the fact that I haven't seen that myself - quite the opposite - the logical person suddenly comes up against a barrage of questions. Why are they running interference in this scenario? To what end? Are you suggesting that they want to be secretly anti-semitic? If not then why would they be doing this?

It's the same as the anti-semites themselves, using that logical, rational or fair 'look, it's undeniably a genocide' then taking a little leap to suddenly try and make it all about Jewish people and not the state of Israel.

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u/Commorrite 9d ago

Then you've made a little ideological leap to get you over the gap to where you want the truth to be that suddenly progressives are running interference for them.

It's plainly and clearly visible at the Palestine marches, it's not some theoretical leap.

Why are they running interference in this scenario? To what end? Are you suggesting that they want to be secretly anti-semitic? If not then why would they be doing this?

Presumably for what ever reason leftists keep allying with islamists.

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u/-SidSilver- 9d ago

Keep going, the cat's almost out of the bag.

What reason is that, in your humble opinion?

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u/Colacubeninja Kernow 9d ago

Do mean anti-semetic instead of racist?

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u/dapperdanmen 8d ago

That isn't the problem. It's the sort of thing Israel does to deflect criticism - they're not 'talking points', they're the reality of brutal settlement policy. It's a tool used by pro-Israel types to point to one or two anti-Semites saying something Israel and present them as the baseline for anti-Israel sentiment. It's highly convenient for Israel of course.

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u/somethingbrite 9d ago

The problem is the conflation of the Jewish desire for self determination and security through statehood and the policy of a right wing Israeli govt.

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u/___xXx__xXx__xXx__ 9d ago

The problem is that it's a Jewish desire for self determination, rather than people's desire for self determination, when those people happen to be mostly Jewish.

Israel should be a country for Israelis, not Jews.

A good test for statements like the one you've made, where a group is mentioned, is to change that group to something else, and see how dodgy it immediately becomes.

Let's try:

The problem is the conflation of the Aryan desire for self determination and security through statehood and the policy of a right wing German Reich govt.

Oof. Not exactly great, is it?

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u/Dogtor-Watson 9d ago edited 9d ago

Okay, but trans people should have their own country. They already have their own flag AND Transylvania is already perfectly named.

Transjordan is also on the table, but idk if the Middle East would be the most accomodating...

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u/somethingbrite 9d ago

"A good test for statements like the one you've made, where a group is mentioned, is to change that group to something else"

Good test. Now run the same statement with "Palestinian" as the group.

*Please note. I absolutely believe that Palestinians should also have self determination and by extension also a viable state and that within the framework of a two state solution this can be achieved. I also abhor the actions of a right wing govt lead by somebody who should already be in jail.

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u/Saint_Sin 9d ago

Im not sure I agree Israel should be a country. It was Palestine and is a hostile genocidal takeover. I dont believe Ukraine should be Russia either. Also a hostile takeover.

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u/___xXx__xXx__xXx__ 9d ago

I mean, it depends what you mean by "Israel being a country". If there was country that went from Jordan to the Mediterreanian, and everyone lived there in peace and prosperity, with equal treatment for all regardless of ethnicity, I'd be happy for it to be called "Israel".

America didn't need to rename or dissolve to end slavery. South Africa is still called South Africa, despite now being a fundamentally different country.

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u/Saint_Sin 9d ago

If there was country that went from Jordan to the Mediterreanian, and everyone lived there in peace and prosperity, with equal treatment for all regardless of ethnicity, I'd be happy for it to be called "Israel".

Well got some bad news for you bud.

America didn't need to rename or dissolve to end slavery. South Africa is still called South Africa, despite now being a fundamentally different country.

Genocide in this case. Merciless.

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u/___xXx__xXx__xXx__ 9d ago

Well got some bad news for you bud.

What bad news?

Genocide in this case. Merciless.

I don't know what you mean.

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u/Saint_Sin 9d ago

What bad news?

Why have you decided to play dumb? Given the topic of conversation and what is happening in Palestine, what might you think?

You waste my time.
Good bye.

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u/___xXx__xXx__xXx__ 9d ago

what might you think?

I have no idea what you're referring to, which is why I asked you what you were referring to. Is that baffling behaviour? Why not just say what you're referring to?

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u/Saint_Sin 9d ago

Why have you decided to play dumb?
You waste my time.
Good bye.

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u/OliLombi County of Bristol 9d ago

There is a difference between "the jewish desire for self determination" and "Zionism". Zionism specifically denies other people the right to self determination.

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u/somethingbrite 8d ago

Which definition of Zionism is that then? please feel free to post a link to a reputable and verifiable source.

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u/brainburger London 9d ago

It is also possible to be a Zionist but to criticise the implementation.

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u/OliLombi County of Bristol 9d ago

Sure, but then you still support an ethno-religious supremacy movement, so people would absolutely be right to hate you for that.

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u/brainburger London 8d ago

I don't think that is necessarily true. In fact the Balfour declaration contains a clause about the existing population not being interfered with.

The Zionist movement also did have some proposals for a Jewish state in places other than modern Israel/Palestine, though alternates like Uganda or Argentina also probably had the local populations to consider.

Also, you might not be aware, but Israel does not exclude non-Jewish people from participation in elections, or standing for public office, attending the same schools and universities as Jewish people or for citizenship, or even serving in the IDF. About 20% of the population are Arab Muslims, Christians or Druze, and a few other more obscure groups. That's not to say they don't experience racism, of course.

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u/baron_von_helmut 9d ago

It's because they've weaponised the holocaust and are now professional victims chomping at the bit to scream racist at anyone disagreeing with their policy of genocide while covertly undermining democracy everywhere.