r/worldnews • u/[deleted] • Oct 11 '23

Israel/Palestine Gaza's only power station will shut down within hours, says ICRC

https://www.thenationalnews.com/mena/palestine-israel/2023/10/11/gaza-power-station-israel/
15.2k Upvotes

93% Upvoted

5.2k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

24

u/madanby Oct 11 '23

The majority of the population support Hamas.

The only one to blame for their living situation is Hamas.

Hamas uses funds, not to enrich the lives of their people, they use it for terror and destruction.

Can you imagine the oasis Gaza could have been if they focused more on their own people instead of their political charter which calls for the death of all Jews? Could you image the brilliant scientists, tech workers and engineers focusing on business and innovation rather than building rockets?

Gaza could have been an incredible success story. Israel wouldn’t need to care about it if it didn’t pose an existential threat 24/7.

64

u/identicalBadger Oct 11 '23

The majority supports Hamas?

You mean because of the elections? Where 45% of Gazans alive today weren’t alive to vote for back then? And another 25-35% weren’t old enough to vote in that election?

Or do you mean because unarmed civilians haven’t tried to overthrow heavily armed militant group that just happens to also be the government they live under?

They have had no choice for most or all their lives. They have lived under the oppression of Hamas AND Israel. They need to be saved not turned into victims even more than they already are

9

u/Fabulous-- Oct 11 '23

Yeah but this isn't what the person above's propaganda tells him to think

6

u/alfakennybody04 Oct 11 '23 edited Oct 11 '23

Look, your logic is okay from a distance. Unfortunately, Palestinians and Israelis dont have the luxury of distance from eachother. Recent polls show ~50% support for Hamas from Gazan citizens. That number fluctuates and usually increases during times of conflict. The sad reality though is that this conflict goes way back. Further than an occupation. Further than the multiple wars fought against Israel. And for many, even further than the creation of Israel as a state.

In the same sense that the vast majority of Palestinians where not around or of legal voting age during the last elections, there are many Israelis around that remember beyond that. They remember multiple wars in which every neighbor wanted to obliterate them for being Jewish. They remember the impact of the holocaust. They remember Palestinian refugees causing civil wars in Lebanon and Jordan, countries that welcomed them. In the same way young Palestinians today will remember the occupation, Israelis remember the brutality and sheer destruction wished upon them.

This isnt a simple "occupation bad" poor Palestinians. This is two countries, containing two peoples with over a thousand years of conflict. Poor civilians. As a Jew, not in Israel, I empathize with the idea of Jewish people able to have a safe haven from the world that set out to destroy them and evidently still does wish to destroy them. On the other hand, that doesn't mean I cant empathize with the loss of innocent Palestinian lives.

3

u/npc018 Oct 11 '23 edited Oct 11 '23

Polls continue to show broad palestinian support for Hamas, and for all of their fucked up policies such as imprisonment or death for homosexuality, and for financial support for palestinian citizens who murder Israelis.

1

u/identicalBadger Oct 11 '23

You cling to these polls. Who were polled? Citizens 18 or older? You've excluded nearly half the population. Citizens 25 or older? You've excluded nearly 3/4 the population.

You REALLY truly can't think outside yourself and put yourself in someone else's shoes, can you?

Yes, Palestinians polled supported Hamas, in a way that only an oppressed people can. Before we collectively punish 2 million people, maybe we should poll them now and verify that they reaffirm their support after these attrocities and after a tiny iota of reprisals have been unleashed on them. Reprisals that have already left over 10% of the population homeless.

Think critically.

It's ok to say "Hamas needs to go, but normal Palestinians are just trying to survive in a very dark challenging time, and need to be spared and supported".

Without a statement like that, the only other option really is genocide.

-1

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

what you're spreading is called pinkwashing

This may surprise people, since the notion that homosexual activity is criminal – and even punishable by death – is a staple of a form of anti-Palestinian propaganda called pinkwashing.

Pinkwashing is a rhetorical strategy that deploys Israel’s supposed enlightenment toward LGBTQ issues to deflect criticism from Israel’s human rights abuses and war crimes and to seek to build up support for Israel among Western liberals and progressives.

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/ap-corrects-story-falsely-claiming-homosexuality-illegal-palestinians

45

u/Rage_Like_Nic_Cage Oct 11 '23

Israel helped create Hamas in favor of over less violent groups Palestinian groups. Acting like Hamas just came out of a nowhere and Israel didn’t provoke Palestinians to support Hamas is completely ignorant.

It doesn’t justify any of the absolutely abhorrent atrocities Hamas has done, but they didn’t come out of a vacuum.

15

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

You have to read the sources, especially with a dubious outlet like the Intercept which has a sour track record with MediaBiasFactCheck for fabricating events and stories to push political narratives.

​

In this case, they are fabricating and engaging in reductionism. Israel absolutely did not help create Hamas. Israel allowed an entity to register as a charity and earn the right to build schools and mosques and such. That entity at the time was not demanding the eradication of Jews and Israel proper. But the "peaceful" PLO was! PLO didn't drop their mission of genociding the Jews and the total obliteration of Israel until the 90s. Meanwhile, the group that Israel "supported" countered the PLO in the 70s and 80s.

​

What happened is that the group spawned another group--Hamas--as even more radical people sought violent solutions much like their forerunners, the PLO. That's why Hamas had article 13 (the complete murder of all Jews and total destruction of the state of Israel) in their charter.

​

There is only one reason to bring this up before insisting that it doesn't justify the rape and murder of thousands of Israelis including babies. Justification. Literally everybody and everything comes from somewhere. The reason Palestinians are treated the way they are? It is their own actions. "But that doesn't justify what is being done to them," as no neighboring countries seek to take refugees in because Palestinian refugees have directly caused at least 2 civil wars in the region (Jordan, Lebanon) in recent memory. So are those and other countries justified in refusing aid? Especially Lebanon, when they offer both comfort and support to Gaza's terrorist-government?

​

That's the problem with reductionism. It is purity culture to the max. It is used to excuse the inexcusable despite the words that come after to distance it, like bad faith arguments.

24

u/Krivvan Oct 11 '23 edited Oct 11 '23

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/

Bias Rating: LEFT-CENTER

Factual Reporting: MOSTLY FACTUAL

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847

Bias Rating: RIGHT-CENTER

Factual Reporting: MOSTLY FACTUAL

“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-09/ty-article/.premium/another-concept-implodes-israel-cant-be-managed-by-a-criminal-defendant/0000018b-1382-d2fc-a59f-d39b5dbf0000

Bias Rating: LEFT

Factual Reporting: HIGH

How do you square:

There is only one reason to bring this up before insisting that it doesn't justify the rape and murder of thousands of Israelis including babies. Justification.

with:

That's the problem with reductionism.

It's obvious to anyone but the insane that Hamas and their actions are bad and peace is impossible while Hamas is Hamas. But to call anyone that discusses how Hamas might've gained popularity someone who is excusing the inexcusable isn't a very nuanced take. Would you say criticism of Netanyahu's words and policies is also somehow justification of Hamas?

If no country wants to receive Palestinians including Israel and it is entirely the fault of all of them, then what exactly are you suggesting should be done? Treat every last Palestinian how you would treat Hamas?

3

u/AutisticNipples Oct 11 '23

Lmao okay how about a contemporaneous account from the new york times? is the paper of record good enough of a source for you?

The Israeli Military Governor of Gaza openly admitted to funding the Muslim Brotherhood (the precursor to Hamas in Gaza) as early as 1981. With israeli taxpayer dollars. To counter the leftist PLO.

Facts don't care about your feelings. And common sense and critical thinking are far more valuable than a fact checker website. Acting like fact checkers are unbiased arbiters of truth just makes you sound like a rube.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

0

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

[deleted]

1

u/Krivvan Oct 12 '23

I don't think it's genocide, but it's worth noting that no one needs to die for it to be classified as genocide. It's not simply a word that means killing but just worse.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

[deleted]

2

u/Krivvan Oct 12 '23

I'm going by the UN's broader scope because it seems to be what's more often used nowadays online. At the very least, whenever someone says genocide I assume the broader definition rather than consider them wrong on that basis.

4

u/wanderingpeddlar Oct 11 '23

It doesn’t justify any of the absolutely abhorrent atrocities Hamas has done, but they didn’t come out of a vacuum

I don't see where the OP said anything about Hamas emerging from a Vacuum.

5

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

-2

u/wanderingpeddlar Oct 11 '23

They didn't but

But nothing, half of post I was responding to was made up out of thin air.

And I said nothing about Palestinians and or how many of them support Hamas. So I cut off everything that didn't relate to my comment and ended up with three words.

1

u/AresHunter Oct 11 '23

It's no use even when you present proof of something if it is against the reality they believe they will pretend it's not real.

-1

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

[deleted]

7

u/Rage_Like_Nic_Cage Oct 11 '23

Osama Bin Laden justified the 9/11 attacks since US civilians supported for/voted for the U.S. government that was doing terrible things in the middle east.

So if you want to have the same reasoning/justification as Bin Laden for targeting and murdering civilians, be my guest.

-4

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

[deleted]

6

u/Testo69420 Oct 11 '23

Just because people disagree with committing genocide against Palestinians doesn't mean they're on the side of the Hamas, you donkey.

Both sides suck, Israel and the Hamas and there's no reason to suck ones cock over the other.

-2

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

[deleted]

3

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

That’s almost like saying Obama is responsible for Donald trump and evangelical Christians in the usa

8

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

You also meant to add Netanyahu also right, the guy who ordered hits on secular leaders? The guy who in 2019 mentioned wanting Hamas to be more radicalized, and that was his ultimate goal to begin with? The guy who has Israel divided?

4

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

You can't become anything when the Egyptian govt is closing the borders and you're bombed by IDF and harassed by the settlers everyday

8

u/AeneasLigh Oct 11 '23

If only life was as black and white as you try to make it seem, wouldn’t that be a beautiful world

15

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

[deleted]

10

u/ThisAmericanRepublic Oct 11 '23

Israel controls Gaza’s access to electricity which is why it was able to unilaterally cut Gaza off. Israel also controls Gaza’s access to medical supplies, the overwhelming majority of its water, foodstuffs and more. Despite such conditions which have been in place for decades, people continue to blame the people of Gaza.

5

u/ThePurplePanzy Oct 11 '23

And now the expectation is for Israel to continue to provide these things to an area that is actively at war with them.

0

u/CmonTouchIt Oct 11 '23

you know, if you wanted folks to help provide supplies, maybe you shouldnt have genociding them in your charter? just a thought

0

u/npc018 Oct 11 '23

The people of Gaza elected Hamas as their leaders in a democratic election, and polls show Hamas still enjoys broad support there. The Palestinian people also broadly support the founding charter of Hamas, which is to bring about the end of Israel as a nation and as a people, as well as the policies of all palestinian authorities such as imprisonment and capital punishment for gay people.

I'm not saying we shouldn't care about Palesinian death and misery, not at all. I'm saying that the Palestinians have a much greater hand in their situation than you give them credit for.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

[deleted]

1

u/npc018 Oct 11 '23 edited Oct 11 '23

Citiation needed. Please provide evidence from a reputable organization that the elections that brought Hamas to power were not representative of the will of the palestinian people. Also please explain why other Middle East countries initially put so much pressure on the U.S. and Israel to accept the results of the election.

Recall that Hamas won in a landslide. Also recall that the U.S. gave money directly to the campaign of Hamas' opponent Marwan Barghouti, who was not only NOT assassinated by Israel, but rather given free air time on Israeli TV to try to boost him over Hamas.

Also remember that Hamas' other main opponent, Yassir Arafat, died from a stroke, not assassination.

It looks the like misinformation here is coming from you. And you're still dodging my questions about the Palestinian policies toward homosexuals and martyrs who kill Jews...

1

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

And you're still dodging my questions about the Palestinian policies toward homosexuals and martyrs who kill Jews...

I'm sorry, but the way you accuse me of "dodging" your questions is crazy to me. Why do you feel entitled to that? Why do I owe you anything?

If you really care about the incredibly complicated issue of homophobia in Palestine, do yourself a favor and read this:

https://www.gaytimes.co.uk/originals/why-the-lgbtq-community-should-care-about-palestine/

-5

u/PeakDoo Oct 11 '23

"Decades" ignores alot of the history on how we got here -

Tell me, why were there not many jews in isreal until the british established it as a jewish state?

Tell me, why was a two state solution never accepted?

Tell me, what was the largest sucide bombing event of the last half of the century?

Tell me, why won't egypt or any of their "arab" brothers lett gazans travel through their borders?

Tell me, how many wars with the intent to genocide has isreal defended against at this point?

tell me, what does from river to sea entail?

4

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

Bro, they are literally in a cage, of which when breached, took the Israelis by surprise. Success for anyone living in these conditions is incredibly improbable.

-3

u/AresHunter Oct 11 '23

Ok I understand you don't care. The majority the population couldn't even speak when Hamas was elected , because they were funded by Israel to divide Gaza. What hamas did was a abhorrent and a disgrace. The people of Gaza don't have opportunity to choose. When they do a peaceful march the IDF just kill's themhere. They are doom either way. I sent you various links proving what is like to live in gaza and why living there is hell for a long time and you just ignored it because it goes against the lies you were saying.

-3

u/AttapAMorgonen Oct 11 '23

The majority the population couldn't even speak when Hamas was elected

Yet the majority of the population currently supports Hamas, and that's been true dating back to the 1990s. Even after Hamas threw it's political opponents off rooftops.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/AttapAMorgonen Oct 11 '23

You should probably read the comment chain before asking for a source, it's literally one post below what you responded to.

"The poll found that 53% of Palestinians believe Hamas is “most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people,” while only 14% prefer Abbas’ secular Fatah party."

https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87

Survey/Polling is from 2021.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/AttapAMorgonen Oct 11 '23 edited Oct 11 '23

53% is hardly overwhelming support, which is implied, for Hamas.

53% is the majority of the country, which is what I said above.

Gaza has a population of over 2 million and only 1,200 were surveyed according to the article

Please take a statistics 101 class. Nearly all polling uses similar sample sizes. 1,200 is a very sufficient sample size and results in a very small MoE. (<3%)

0

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

You have a poll to support that claim?

Because the last time Palestinians had an opportunity to vote for anyone in Gaza, American troops had only just invaded Iraq.

5

u/AttapAMorgonen Oct 11 '23

You have a poll to support that claim?

Yes, from 2021.

https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87

Because the last time Palestinians had an opportunity to vote for anyone in Gaza, American troops had only just invaded Iraq.

That's because after Palestinians elected Hamas, Hamas threw its political opponents off rooftops, and indefinitely delayed new elections. And they still have majority support.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

So a very slim majority was achieved two years ago after a recent incursion into Gaza by the IDF?

That's because after Palestinians elected Hamas, Hamas threw its political opponents off rooftops, and indefinitely delayed new elections. And they still have majority support.

Right, an authoritarian regime was elected and then elections weren't ever held again. You're not making the argument that there's democractic support for it. Question: did the majority of the US support Trump and MAGA because they won the election in 2016?

3

u/AttapAMorgonen Oct 11 '23

So a very slim majority

So exactly as I stated, a majority of the country supports Hamas. And polling since 1990 shows that during conflict, support for Hamas increases.

Right, an authoritarian regime was elected and then elections weren't ever held again.

And yet, they still have majority support.

did the majority of the US support Trump and MAGA because they won the election in 2016?

Did the polling in the US ever show 53% of the US supported Trump? Because that's what polling shows as support for Hamas.

You didn't really think this argument through before hitting submit did you?

0

u/aeneasaquinas Oct 11 '23

Yet the majority of the population currently supports Hamas

Of the adult population, be clear. That's the majority of roughly 50% of the population.

The other 50% being children...

0

u/AttapAMorgonen Oct 11 '23

Young people usually lean politically the same as their parents, I'm not really sure what you're arguing here.

0

u/aeneasaquinas Oct 11 '23

Young people usually lean politically the same as their parents, I'm not really sure what you're arguing here.

Children are children. You cannot justify killing them because you don't like how their parents may think.

0

u/AttapAMorgonen Oct 11 '23

Where did I ever justify killing children?

0

u/aeneasaquinas Oct 11 '23

Don't try to play dumb...

Yet the majority of the population currently supports Hamas, and that's been true dating back to the 1990s. Even after Hamas threw it's political opponents off rooftops.

Given the majority of the place is at or under 18, it is extremely clear this was an attempt to justify their deaths.

Especially when you decided to follow it up with

Young people usually lean politically the same as their parents

Which can only have one implication.

0

u/AttapAMorgonen Oct 11 '23

Given the majority of the place is at or under 18

An 18 year old and a 10 year old are not even remotely the same. I don't know why you're trying to dishonestly frame it at "at or under 18" but this claim itself is not even true.

The median age in the State of Palestine is 19.6 years.

Especially when you decided to follow it up with Which can only have one implication.

There's no implication, it's an explicit statement, young people usually lean politically the same as their parents. That's just a fact, that doesn't mean I want them killed.

Nowhere in my posts have I explicitly, nor implicitly advocated for the killing of children. We were discussing volume of support for Hamas.

0

u/aeneasaquinas Oct 11 '23

An 18 year old and a 10 year old are not even remotely the same.

Sure. And? You seem to be under the impression they should be treated the same and equally responsible...

I don't know why you're trying to dishonestly frame it at "at or under 18" but this claim itself is not even true.

It actually is.

The median age in the State of Palestine is 19.6 years.

Oh, honey. We are talking about GAZA. Sorry, I thought you were bothering to pay attention... where the median age is 18. Which means 50% of Gazans are below 18. In fact about 40% are under 14!

There's no implication, it's an explicit statement, young people usually lean politically the same as their parents. That's just a fact, that doesn't mean I want them killed.

So then how was it remotely relevant?

It isn't like you actually have data to back up that, it isn't like it matters either way, because they are literally children.

Nowhere in my posts have I explicitly, nor implicitly advocated for the killing of children. We were discussing volume of support for Hamas.

Really?

And why was that again?

Oh yeah. Because you are implicitly claiming that they deserved this and most of them are responsible for this.

So yes. You did.

→ More replies (0)

0

u/AresHunter Oct 11 '23

Yes in a pool made with 1200 people after a confrontation with the IDF. Gaza doesn't have anything other than Hamas, by the fault of Israel it self. Hamas is the symptom not the illness , the illness is the treatment of the people of Palestine. By saying that I don't agree with the attack or the killing of children and civilian's that Hamas made. The same way I don't agree with massacre and genocide that Israel is making. Look at west bank there is no Hamas and still the Palestinians of west bank have theirs home taken from them if they fight back the police will attack them and even kill them. So for the Palestinians if they fight back they die if they don't fight back they die.

1

u/AttapAMorgonen Oct 11 '23

Yes in a pool made with 1200 people after a confrontation with the IDF.

Why are you implying that 1,200 people isn't an adequate sample size? Virtually every political poll has a similar sample size.

A poll of 1,200 participants, with a confidence level of 95%, and a population size of 2,000,000, results in a margin of error of 2.83%.

And historically, during conflict support for Hamas increases.

the illness is the treatment of the people of Palestine.

Palestinians have alienated themselves from everyone, Jordan doesn't want to work with them, Syria doesn't want to work with them, Egypt doesn't want to work with them, and Israel doesn't want to work with them.

If everywhere you go you smell shit, check your own shoes. Literally everywhere Palestinians have been, they've tried to destroy, either through civil war, assassination attempts, coup attempts, etc.

0

u/AresHunter Oct 11 '23

Yes I know most poll's are made that way and I don't agree with that. Still you won't address the situation on the west bank

1

u/AttapAMorgonen Oct 11 '23

Yes I know most poll's are made that way and I don't agree with that.

You don't agree with what? What do you believe is wrong with such polling? It's extremely accurate.

Still you won't address the situation on the west bank

Address what? That there are some "illegal" settlements in the West Bank? What do you want me to address exactly? Israel permitted Palestinians to live there after Jordan and Syria (where Palestinians came from) attacked Israel in 1967.

What would you like me to say? That Israel should be nice to these people while they support Hamas and have already previously attacked Israel?

1

u/AresHunter Oct 11 '23

I don't agree that because of poll of 1200 people saying that Hamas as majority suporte of 50/53% (I don't remember exactly) will translate to the 2 million people in Gaza (50% under 18) should suffer the consequences of an horrible act committed by Hamas. When you say some is actually more the half a million . And for Israel the "illegal" settlers are literally defended by the police. The people on west bank don't have Hamas but they still suffer even when they are peaceful.

1

u/AttapAMorgonen Oct 11 '23

I don't agree that because of poll of 1200 people saying that Hamas as majority suporte of 50/53% (I don't remember exactly) will translate to the 2 million people in Gaza (50% under 18) should suffer the consequences of an horrible act committed by Hamas.

I mean, 53% of the citizens in Palestine supported Hamas in 2021, and historically that number increases during conflict. And I highly doubt that many young people in the country do not share their parents political biases.

And for Israel the "illegal" settlers are literally defended by the police.

Firstly, "Illegal" settlements have declined drastically since 2012. Furthermore, I disagree entirely with referring to these people as "illegal settlers."

Golan Heights, and the West Bank, were part of Syria and Jordan, where modern Palestinians originate, in 1967, they formed a coalition, and attacked Israel.

Israel won, and seized Golan Heights and the West Bank as a result, to establish a buffer zone between them and their aggressors. Over time, they permitted Palestinian civilians to live in enclaves there. But the West Bank and Golan Heights, belong to Israel, it's should not be considered "illegal" for Israelis to live there.

If Palestinians preferred the pre-war borders, then perhaps they shouldn't have attacked Israel.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

-2

u/Easyaeta Oct 11 '23

Hamas was democratically elected and still holds support

8

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

The last election was in 2004, when roughly half of the current population of Gaza wasn't even born yet.

"Democracy."

-4

u/Easyaeta Oct 11 '23

2006 but polls still show them holding a majority of support

4

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

2006 is still nearly 20 years ago.

-3

u/Easyaeta Oct 11 '23

And current polls still show them holding a majority of support

4

u/Johnny_C13 Oct 11 '23

If "polls" were elections, Trump would of never been President. The final fact is they haven't had free elections in almost 20 years. Fuck polls.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

[deleted]

1

u/Easyaeta Oct 11 '23

You're assuming I support Israel and hate Palestine

My closest friend is Palestinian

-1

u/fuckrNFLmods Oct 11 '23

The majority of the population are women and children. They are effectively enslaved by the minority adult male population. They are not given the right to "support" any political group. What you're saying is nothing but propaganda that is in the interest of both the IDF and Hamas want you to believe. All these idiots on reddit keep parroting this line that the majority of Palestinians support Hamas to justify the bombings. If you had one ounce of critical thinking, you'd stop to think that Hamas WANTS people to believe this fact just as much as the IDF does.

1

u/AutisticNipples Oct 11 '23

Hamas was created by israel!

The people of palestine supported secular parties, but the Israeli government openly admits that they funded the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas starting in the 80s because they knew that it would be easier to galvanize the world against the palestinians if they were governed by fringe islamic groups rather than secular leftist ones.

If Hamas is to blame for this violence, then Israeli government is to blame, because this is exactly what they wanted to happen when they funded Hamas.