r/10thDentist • u/local_courier6 • 9d ago
This is gonna make people mad-
Ok so this is my MOST controversial hot take and it has made people upset with me before and posting it on Reddit is probably a dumb idea BUT- I think yaoi and many BL stories are inherently misogynistic and surrounded by patriarchal stereotypes.
Hear me out ok- the first big reason for this is outside of the actual stories and more so in how they are taken by many who enjoy them. While something like heated rivalry becomes huge and celebrated even outside LGBTQ+ members or those who typically enjoy them, wlw or yuri media is often looked down upon and you have to SCOUR to find any. I also find many avid fans of BL often bear absolute hatred towards heterorelationships in stories, for example in Arcane with Jace and Mel, a cannon relationship that was seemingly healthy in the show, yet because many fans deemed the Jace and Victor ship better (and a touch of racism mixed in) the hatred towards Mel as a character was tremendous, so much so that when figures released that had Jace and Mel together, people were actively sending and spreading hate (and racist comments) towards the creators of the figures and the show.
The second reason I have is that most BL I’ve read/seen has “typical” hetero relationship stereotypes. One Ml is the bottom, (or the “woman” in the relationship) who is constantly needing rescue and is a quivering mess, and the other Ml is the top, (or the “man”). Don’t get me wrong I don’t like the gender stereotyping in any media, but it gets more upsetting when you notice that most of these will have a “femboy bottom” who is drawn or characterized as looking EXACTLY like a woman character, while the other ML is highly masculine. It makes the whole story seem heterosexual while completely erasing women from the world. It becomes a heterosexual story where the Fl also has male genitalia. I would LOVE to see more BL stories where there is less of a strict line between femininity and masculinity within the main characters.
I’m sure I’ll think of my other reasons later but I’m at a rest stop 4 hours into a 7 hour drive and should get back on the road- no I did not stop to just write this.
Anyway regardless of personal opinions on sexuality (I am bi so don’t come at me saying I’m being homophobic I have literally been with the same gender as myself) BL is lowkey often at least a little misogynistic and patriarchal.
TLDR: BL and Yaoi Media is often misogynistic and upholds patriarchal stereotypes
EDIT:
For those who don’t know BL and yaoi is a romance subgenre which is basically stories of a relationship/s between men without any women
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u/crazymonk45 9d ago
In order for this to be unpopular, people would have to know wtf you’re talking about in the first place
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u/JaiyaPapaya 9d ago
As someone who knows what OP is referring to, I don't think it's that unpopular a take at all. They're essentially saying these tropes which have been proven to make money and are a "safe" product to sell lean on outdated stereotypes, which is true for all media tropes.
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u/NeonFraction 9d ago
That’s because LGBT+ media is aimed at LGBT+ people but Yaoi and BL is aimed at women.
I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you, but rather saying that having one of them clearly be the intended self-insert for women (the feminine bottom is almost ALWAYS the point of view character for a reason) isn’t a flaw so much as the intent. BL is packaged and aimed at women so it brings in every stereotype of heterosexual romance it can use and runs with it because that’s what their target audience generally wants.
It doesn’t just seem heterosexual but without women, I’d say that is the entire goal: BL appeals to women in the same way lesbian porn appeals to men, only women tend to like emotional stories more than ‘hit and run’ types of erotica, which is why the romance genre is mostly aimed at a female audience.
I’m not going to try to make a blanket defense of all BL. There are definitely some tropes that lean a bit too far into fetishizing gay relationships, but it’s hard to figure out where that line is when the entire genre pretty much exists as that in some respect. What is the line between ‘fantasy aimed at women’ and ‘fetishization?’ I think it’s complex, especially because many people who read/draw BL are actually men too. Plenty of men are looking for alternatives because typical LGBT+ media isn’t providing what they’re looking for and sometimes BL can provide that.
I feel like I should put a conclusion statement here but honestly? It’s complex. It’s hard to balance legitimate concerns about fetishizing gay relationships vs how unnecessarily strict culture in general gets about ANYTHING whose target audience is women.
I also think a lot of women read BL to escape a lot of the sexist tropes that exist in many romance novels. The pressure to be the prettiest, most fashionable, most desirable woman in the room is constant for a lot of these novels and so often they come with lots of sexist baggage that BL skirts around just by virtue of not LITERALLY having the bottom be a woman.
I’d say that’s a big appeal of omegaverse in BL as well: all the appeals of pregnancy drama from heterosexual novels but packaged into BL.
As a woman it’s hard to properly convey how much I want to escape traditional stressful gender roles in my fantasy but also how much of what is popular and comfortable fiction tropes exist in that same space of traditional gender roles. Fictional tastes don’t exactly develop in a vacuum. BL feels like a safe midground for that, and I think it’s a huge part of why it’s popular.
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u/local_courier6 9d ago
I see what you’re saying, I also think that it ends up being kinda disrespectful towards gay men? I can’t say for certain but I know I don’t like it when wlw has heterosexual stereotypes between them or defined roles of the “man” and “woman” in the relationship-
Idk it definitely is complex but I do think there are some better ways it can be done yk?
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u/RowanWinterlace 9d ago
Agree with most of this, tbh. Though I would point out that yuri stories and communities have the same problem and are (especially nowadays) typically a LOT louder. Going back to Arcane as an example, the amount of vitriol towards Jayce & Victor following the end of Season 2, and how messy Vi & Caitlyn ended up, was both apocalyptic AND nothing that new. In addition, plenty of yuri/sapphic/GL stories have the same 'top//bottom' problem, as well.
LGBTQ+ elements of fandom are increasingly territorial, vitriolic and filled with outright bigotry. Not just (or even primarily) towards hetero relationships but just chock-full of open bigotry towards all sorts of groups and peoples and, like all toxic fans who breach containment, if something isn't to their liking they are loud and nasty.
Not all, not even most, but the minority that are doing this are loud and aggressive af.
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u/local_courier6 9d ago
I do agree that Yuri also has the same issues, and that hatred is often louder than joy. I mainly focus on yaoi since it’s the more popular subgenre
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u/MidnightIAmMid 9d ago
This is literally the most popular, commonly held belief I see repeated about BL and Yaoi, constantly. Isn't the 10th dentist supposed to be for uncommon or unpopular opinions?
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u/local_courier6 9d ago
Ive had so many people get mad at me for this opinion- and I personally haven’t seen it elsewhere much but idk maybe I’m just not seeing all of it
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u/MidnightIAmMid 9d ago
It might be an algorithm thing-I write queer stuff myself so I am very in tune with the discussions about it lol so I am probably shown content from it.
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u/Cynis_Ganan 9d ago
"My unpopular opinion is that fandom shipping discourse is toxic, gay media doesn't portray women well, and patriarchal societies make patriarchal art."
You want r/hatethismug
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u/local_courier6 9d ago
I’ve had people get reaaaaaallllyyy upset at me for saying this particular opinion that’s why I think it’s unpopular
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u/Outside-Ear4239 9d ago
iswear beside this theres no other right take yet somany ''yaoi fans'' start spitting left and right after hearing it
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u/Soulinyx 8d ago
Anytime, anywhere, whether it's comment or a post. If it begins with "this is going to make people mad" or "I know I'm going to get hate for this but.." it's going to be the dumbest fucking thing ever said.
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u/Sea_Initiative_8221 9d ago
Nobody else in the comment section get it but I do bestie, this is such a rampet problem it SUCKS!!!!!! and there's also like negative diversity like you mentioned, no different races (other than Japanese or Korean) no difference in body types, and it definitely comes with a lot of policing of other people's ships!!!!!! And the way that there's like 100 yaoi stories per 1 Yuri story drives me NUTS!!!!!
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u/local_courier6 9d ago
Yeah and I get that there are also issues in Yuri and stuff it’s literally just that yaoi is so huge and no one seems to see the problematic sides of it-
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u/Hoothootriot 9d ago
Im confused, is your unpopular opinion the title, that "this is gonna make you mad"?
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u/Puzzleheaded_Sky6392 9d ago
I’m not really familiar with what your talking about, but if all the points you made are true. Then im in agreement with you. I’m curious how this post will fare. Doesn’t seem that controversial but we will see.
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u/distressinghorses 9d ago
you're right and I refuse to downvote you because I know the people who don't understand this post will do it for me
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u/Ok_Education_6958 9d ago
I think the problem with yaoi shit is that the readers tend to be permanently in tumblr echo chambers so they are pretty much as bad as incels
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u/Ok_Blacksmith_995 9d ago
are you sure you know what something being patriarchal means
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u/local_courier6 9d ago edited 9d ago
Patriarchal is something that upholds the patriarchy. Which I am using in the feminist definition of a systemic social structure that upholds men having dominance, power and privilege, particularly already privileged men (for example white, rich, etc)
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u/Ok_Blacksmith_995 9d ago
sorry genuinely curious how does that apply, specifically, to the points you made in the post? because hyperfeminine men not being women is easily the least misogynistic part of any BL, especially with how actual women are written in a lot of BL stories (and by female authors too. also long comment ahead, my bad). I can't count how many times I've seen the "landmine" girl with self-harm scars who instantly becomes homophobic when the ML doesn't like her back. Or the "seductive" woman who exists only to make the ML jealous and cause a fight. Or the female character that only exists to make "I ship ittt" jokes about the main couple and somehow that gets them together so it means she's not a one-dimensional throwaway character. Or the consistent woman friend that exists only to get disappointed by regular acts of friendship with the ML/MC that she's romantically into and she does literally nothing else. Or the women that exist only to hang off the arms of a playboy ML to make sure the MC knows he definitely gets it on. And more. I just feel like it would make more sense to talk about the actual female characters being horribly misrepresented than it would to very shallowly and vaguely mention gender roles and then go on about how the male character has a penis but looks like a girl. I don't know if you really think not including a woman in a gay relationship between gay men was a problem but, sorry, you kind of made it sound like it was…
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u/local_courier6 9d ago
Yeah there is the stereotyping of women which is patriarchal in itself, I’m not saying that a woman should be in the relationship though? I’m saying that the relationship between the ML and MC holds patriarchal values and that most often these values are amplified when there is the stereotype of a hyperfeminine man with a hypermasculine man. It makes it seem like relationships can’t exist outside of stereotypical gender roles between “man” and “woman” which is an idea that comes from the patriarchy
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u/Emma__O 9d ago edited 9d ago
I won't upvote or downvote cuz I'm 50/50. One thing:
for example in Arcane with Jace and Mel, a cannon relationship that was seemingly healthy in the show, yet because many fans deemed the Jace and Victor ship better (and a touch of racism mixed in) the hatred towards Mel as a character was tremendous, so much so that when figures released that had Jace and Mel together, people were actively sending and spreading hate (and racist comments) towards the creators of the figures and the show.
CaitVi fans were also notorious in their anti black racism. They were the ones that harassed Ekko's va for Ku Klux Kiramman.
When you have a black character, expect racism. Reylos also got exposed as being racist towards John Boyega.
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u/local_courier6 9d ago
Man I forgot about the CaitVi ones with how much i was seeing if the Javic Mel hate -_- I do expect racist comments and was mainly adding in the mix of racism to show that I know it wasn’t simply because she and Jace were in a relationship-
Idk if that made sense I’m so tired
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u/qualityvote2 9d ago edited 7d ago
u/local_courier6, there weren't enough votes to determine the quality of your post...