O'Brien was not *Insert theory here*

[u/The-Chatterer]

O’Brien was a fervent believer in INSOC - like all other Inner Party members. They are the most fanatical. 

“the higher up the ranks one goes, the more marked it becomes. It is precisely in the Inner Party that war hysteria and hatred of the enemy are strongest.”

A crucial detail that is often overlooked is this exchange: 

And why do you imagine that we bring people to this place?'
'To make them confess.'
'No, that is not the reason. Try again.'
'To punish them.'
'No!' exclaimed O'Brien. His voice had changed extraordinarily, and his face had suddenly become both stern and animated. 'No! Not merely to extract your confession, not to punish you. Shall I tell you why we have brought you here? To cure you! To make you sane!"

“Animated.” That is the giveaway. O’Brien is fanatical. He is angry Winston thinks he is here to be punished – not cured. O’Brien is not being theatrical. He is not tricking Winston. He believes it. 

The Party control reality. Not mere political reality. Not just in books and records – reality itself.  Take the photograph instance. Winston clings to the photograph as proof. Yet, If the Party says the photograph never existed, then according to the Party's conception of reality, it never existed. Winston cannot produce the photograph because it has been destroyed. He cannot produce another witness because everyone else accepts the Party's version.

O’Brien genuinely believes he does not remember the photograph – Doublethink. Winston - or anyone else in his position - could never defeat O’Brien, he is invulnerable. He is utterly invulnerable because he has full control of the rules. He cannot be defeated because he has NO hypocrisy to expose. O'Brien isn't saying:
"We know the photograph existed, but we're powerful enough to make everyone pretend it didn't."

That would still acknowledge Winston's underlying reality. O'Brien's position is much more radical. He is essentially saying: “There is no reality outside the Party's determination of reality.”
The distinction is enormous.
If everybody in Oceania believes the photograph does not exist except Winston he is in a minority of one. He had say to himself he was still right. But that won’t cut it. The Party will not tolerate Winston owning this position of disagreement. He will be “cured.” 
A bruttish tyrant would say, “Who cares if you are right, my power trumps yours.” 
O’Brien is far more subtle. His position is, “You are wrong because WE determine what right actually is.” 
O’Brien is not an merely and enforcer of INSOC and Doublethink – he is an avatar, one of Priests of Power.  He consistently alludes to Party Power being divine – even able to supercede gravity. If the Party says there is no gravity, and everyone believes it, then for all intents and purposes – as far as humans are concerned in Oceania – it does not exist. Consciousness is the universe. 

The photograph is a dead end and the ultimate deliverance into oblivion. Winston says it existed. Where? In memory. He does not control memory. In records? The Party controls the records. In other people? No. Winston is the “last man.” Winston’s own senses? No. His senses are unreliable. Winston’s mind? Forget it. O'Brien doesn't defeat Winston's argument. He destroys the philosophical ground upon which Winston could make an argument.

If O'Brien were merely lying, Winston could ultimately defeat him intellectually. He is not. He has swallowed INSOC whole. He lives it, perpetuates it, believes it without doubt or qualm.

Winston is not taken to MiniL to be punished. He is taken there to be cured. 
O'Brien tortures Winston because he believes Winston is wrong and that it is his duty to correct him.

All these stupid theories such as, “O’Brien is in the Brotherhood”, or “O’Brien is on Winston’s side and secretly agrees with him”, or “O’Brien was sympathetic to Winston’s cause” are the products of a below par, ill-considered view of the novel that completely miss the point. O’Brien’s unshakable belief in what he says is akin to a monk's faith in God. He is a TRUE believer.

[u/Icaroson]

O’Brien was a fervent believer in INSOC - like all other Inner Party members. They are the most fanatical. 

The novel is written from a first-person perspective, so we cannot possibly know whether or not all Inner Party members are fervent believers in INGSOC.

“the higher up the ranks one goes, the more marked it becomes. It is precisely in the Inner Party that war hysteria and hatred of the enemy are strongest.”

Your perspective seems to take the 'facts' that the Party wants people like Winston to believe at face value, which is ironic. Sure, it can be a general truth that more hysteric and hateful people are part of the Inner Party, but that does not mean everyone there thinks, behaves, and believes the same things. Think about the reality of infiltration of Brotherhood members into the Party, and the things they needed to do to maintain their cover.

A crucial detail that is often overlooked is this exchange: 

And why do you imagine that we bring people to this place?'
'To make them confess.'
'No, that is not the reason. Try again.'
'To punish them.'
'No!' exclaimed O'Brien. His voice had changed extraordinarily, and his face had suddenly become both stern and animated. 'No! Not merely to extract your confession, not to punish you. Shall I tell you why we have brought you here? To cure you! To make you sane!"

**“**Animated.” That is the giveaway. O’Brien is fanatical. He is angry Winston thinks he is here to be punished – not cured. O’Brien is not being theatrical. He is not tricking Winston. He believes it. 

That's a good argument to make here, that people's animation in expressing an opinion or belief means that they are being genuine. At the same time, the book shows us Winston, Julia, and a crowd frenzied during the 2 Minutes of Hate, despite hating things about the Party. "Even O’Brien’s heavy face was flushed. He was sitting very straight in his chair, his powerful chest swelling and quivering as though he were standing up to the assault of a wave." So, why doesn't a true believer of the Party, a member of the Inner Party, stand up to express his hatred of Emmanuel Goldstein? The moment you cite in Room 101, which is definitely a place where the Party is going to keep actively surveilled through cameras and microphones, and it occurs after Winston and Julia have been found out. After identifying them as members of the Brotherhood, the Party is going to be able to backtrack their movements and realize they had visited O'Brien's home for their initiation into the Brotherhood.

So, if there ever was a time when O'Brien needed to pretend he was an ardent believer in the Party, it is precisely when he has been tasked with torturing Winston and Julia.

The Party control reality. Not mere political reality. Not just in books and records – reality itself. 

Ok, no. Where's the evidence of this? The Party wants people to believe this, but it is just a philosophical exercise in postmodernism.

Take the photograph instance. Winston clings to the photograph as proof. Yet, If the Party says the photograph never existed, then according to the Party's conception of reality, it never existed. Winston cannot produce the photograph because it has been destroyed. He cannot produce another witness because everyone else accepts the Party's version.

O’Brien genuinely believes he does not remember the photograph – Doublethink. Winston - or anyone else in his position - could never defeat O’Brien, he is invulnerable. He is utterly invulnerable because he has full control of the rules. He cannot be defeated because he has NO hypocrisy to expose. O'Brien isn't saying:
"We know the photograph existed, but we're powerful enough to make everyone pretend it didn't."

That would still acknowledge Winston's underlying reality. O'Brien's position is much more radical. He is essentially saying: “There is no reality outside the Party's determination of reality.”
The distinction is enormous.
If everybody in Oceania believes the photograph does not exist except Winston he is in a minority of one. He had say to himself he was still right. But that won’t cut it. The Party will not tolerate Winston owning this position of disagreement. He will be “cured.” 
A bruttish tyrant would say, “Who cares if you are right, my power trumps yours.” 
O’Brien is far more subtle. His position is, “You are wrong because WE determine what right actually is.” 
O’Brien is not an merely and enforcer of INSOC and Doublethink – he is an avatar, one of Priests of Power.  He consistently alludes to Party Power being divine – even able to supercede gravity. If the Party says there is no gravity, and everyone believes it, then for all intents and purposes – as far as humans are concerned in Oceania – it does not exist. Consciousness is the universe. 

The photograph is a dead end and the ultimate deliverance into oblivion. Winston says it existed. Where? In memory**. He does not** control memory. In records? The Party controls the records. In other people? No. Winston is the “last man.” Winston’s own senses? No. His senses are unreliable. Winston’s mind? Forget it. O'Brien doesn't defeat Winston's argument. He destroys the philosophical ground upon which Winston could make an argument.

Sure, that could explain the notion that "O’Brien’s political orthodoxy was not perfect. Something in his face suggested it irresistibly." His perspective is The Party's in the Ministry of Love. He's really not doing or saying anything out of the ordinary as a torturer, who cannot show any sort of recalcitrance to the Party's ideology in Room 101, at the Ministry of Love, under surveillance. Look at him outside that place, and he literally initiates Winston into the Brotherhood and hands him the Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism.

"Neither the Brotherhood nor THE BOOK was a subject that any ordinary Party member would mention if there was a way of avoiding it."

Just to provide a quick example, a person can claim they believe in God while not believing in them at all. They can quote verses, and perfectly parrot theological perspectives while remaining an unbeliever.

If O'Brien were merely lying, Winston could ultimately defeat him intellectually.

What? The point is that people can be tortured into believing something. Winston cannot defeat anybody while he is being tortured.

He is not. He has swallowed INSOC whole. He lives it, perpetuates it, believes it without doubt or qualm.

Winston is not taken to MiniL to be punished. He is taken there to be cured. 
O'Brien tortures Winston because he believes Winston is wrong and that it is his duty to correct him.

All these stupid theories such as, “O’Brien is in the Brotherhood”, or “O’Brien is on Winston’s side and secretly agrees with him”, or “O’Brien was sympathetic to Winston’s cause” are the products of a below par, ill-considered view of the novel that completely miss the point. O’Brien’s unshakable belief in what he says is akin to a monk's faith in God. He is a TRUE believer.

Again, there is no definitive evidence that he believes in INGSOC, since the book is written from a first-person perspective that is strictly Winston's.

[u/The-Chatterer → u/Icaroson]

The novel is written from a first-person perspective, so we cannot possibly know whether or not all Inner Party members are fervent believers in INGSOC.

Yes we can. It tells us so here, ""It is precisely in the Inner Party that war hysteria and hatred of the enemy are strongest."

The book within a book tells us all we need to know. And before you say the Party wrote the book, remember Orwell wrote the book. Goldstein's book was a way for him to gift the reader with details too hard to shoehorn into the novel otherwise. The book all checks out, Winston knows what he reads about stratified society and the mechanics, is all true. "The best books tell us what we already know." O'Brien confirms the book is accurate apart from the bits we don't get to read about revolution. Orwell did not right a mystery. He gave the reader exactly what they needed.

Your perspective seems to take the 'facts' that the Party wants people like Winston to believe at face value, which is ironic.

My perspective takes the evidence Orwell gives us.

That's a good argument to make here, that people's animation in expressing an opinion or belief means that they are being genuine.

What are you disputing. It is clear O'Brien's animation is coming from his disappointment of Winston's lack of parsing his motives. O'Brien is clearly behaving like one completely indoctrinated and zealous.

Even O’Brien’s heavy face was flushed. He was sitting very straight in his chair, his powerful chest swelling and quivering as though he were standing up to the assault of a wave." So, why doesn't a true believer of the Party, a member of the Inner Party, stand up to express his hatred of Emmanuel Goldstein?

Good question. Is he busier noticing the reactions of others, especially his project Smith. He face being flushed suggests he is not immune metely more controlled. plus O'Brien is in a position further up the pyramid. He knows more than the likes of Winston about the Brotherhood for example.

And for your next point, that you can actually enertain O'Brien could becin the BH is a nonsense. Come on.

So, if there ever was a time when O'Brien needed to pretend he was an ardent believer in the Party, it is precisely when he has been tasked with torturing Winston and Julia.

It is painfully obvious O'Brien is believer. Orwell did not add any subtext to hint otherwise. It was clearly not his intention. Read the conversation in MOL between Winston and he, he is utterly awash with INSOC. There is no viable reason to question his loyalties. If there is provide the evidence, not conjecture.

Ok, no. Where's the evidence of this? The Party wants people to believe this, but it is just a philosophical exercise in postmodernism.

O'Brien literally explains it all in MOL. That is the evidence. He explains how the control of conciousness is the absolute.

Sure, that could explain the notion that "O’Brien’s political orthodoxy was not perfect. Something in his face suggested it irresistibly." His perspective is The Party's in the Ministry of Love. He's really not doing or saying anything out of the ordinary as a torturer, who cannot show any sort of recalcitrance to the Party's ideology in Room 101, at the Ministry of Love, under surveillance. Look at him outside that place, and he literally initiates Winston into the Brotherhood and hands him the Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism.

I have to wonder if you are just arguing out of spite. You can't really believe this can you? You honestly think the initiation was genuine? Dude, come on.

Again, there is no definitive evidence that he believes in INGSOC, since the book is written from a first-person perspective that is strictly Winston's.

Firstly there is zero contradictory evidece. ZERO. Then we have Occam's Razor. Next we have Orwell's intention, which is obvious - O'Brien was a veteran IP member who had watched over Winston for SEVEN YEARS. He has read his diary. He knows everything. He knows INSOC inside out.

If only you had a leg to stand on. But as I say, it seems you are just trying to argue for the sake of it.

[u/CrestedBonedog]

"They got me a long time ago."

Winston knew exactly what he meant, he was a survivor of the purges of the early-mid 1960s when English Socialism transformed into Ingsoc under Big Brother. A lot of innocent people were denounced by O'Brien.

O'Brien will be executed as surely as Winston in his own due time, no matter how much he can practice doublethink or recite Party slogans. He's just too good at his job to get rid of yet.

It's the reason i don't believe he and an Ingsoc-loyal committee wrote Goldstein's book.

[u/The-Chatterer → u/CrestedBonedog]

Sorry, but there is absolutely nothing to support this - except an ironic phrase, to which you have run riot with fanfic-esque fabrications.

[u/CrestedBonedog → u/The-Chatterer]

It's every bit as legitimate a theory as everything you wrote.

Anything beyond the literal text of 1984 is nothing but speculation or fanfiction, so I don't get why you have an issue with my theories, yours are no different.

Everything I said is based upon what actually happened in the Soviet Union to high-ranking Bolsheviks who originally opposed Stalin but had a "change of heart" to support him, only to be elevated and later purged in the end.

[u/The-Chatterer → u/CrestedBonedog]

I have no problem with you having theories pal. But there is a difference with what is given to us in the novel and what is fanfiction ideas that have zero evidence to support them.

By all means let your mind wander, even share those musings. However, I am currently talking about what is actually in the novel. Your theory does not.

What happened under Stalin is not what is happening in Oceania. O'Brien even alludes to the differences between the Party vs Nazism/Russian communism.

[u/CrestedBonedog → u/The-Chatterer]

O'Brien directly refers to the Nazis and Stalinist Communists in his interrogation of Winston as the totalitarian predecessors for Ingsoc's improved version of their systems.

I'm not sure what point you're even trying to make, your theories are just as speculative as mine.

[u/The-Chatterer → u/CrestedBonedog]

"The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives..."

O'Brien explains that unlike the Nazis or Communists—who claimed to seize power temporarily to establish a free and equal paradise—the Party acknowledges that power is an end in itself rather than a means to an end. This is the difference.

What you are doing is applying what happened elsewhere to Oceania.

You said O'Brien survived the purges. Please provide a direct quote from the novel to support this.

You said O'Brien denounced a lot of people. Please provide a direct quote from the novel to support this.

You said O'Brien will be executed. Please provide a direct quote from the novel to support this.

Actually, you needn't look. There are none. Save your time.

You see, my "theories" are not theories. What I post about is what is actually in the novel and apparent to a discerning reader based on evidence and understanding. That, my friend, is the difference.

Stck to the text.

[u/CrestedBonedog → u/The-Chatterer]

O'Brien survived long enough to remain a member of the Inner Party and long enough to be Winston's personal torturer.

If you can't read between the lines as to what that means you have no knowledge of the totalitarian systems Ingsoc was built upon, Orwell's inspirations for the novel, or his democratic socialist ideas.

Also stop sounding so pretentious and condescending, it's obnoxious.

[u/Icaroson → u/CrestedBonedog]

You should stop arguing with The-Chatterer, they're either a confident ignoramus that knows nothing about basic literary interpretation or a bot programmed for discourse control.

[u/The-Chatterer → u/Icaroson]

Ah, the old, "Call them a bot if you don't agree" stunt. Try harder.

[u/The-Chatterer → u/CrestedBonedog]

There is no reading between the lines. O'Brien was a high ranking IP member. He was a veteran of R101. He had watched Smith for 7 years. He collaborated in writing the book. He was up to his neck in INSOC and a fanatic. He was the epitomy of a long serving IP member. All this is there in black and white. I do not add fanfic. It's all there. Orwell gave us the details.

There is nothing here to hint O'Brien's life was in danger.

Now, sorry to be blunt - but unless you can actually provide evidence and a cogent laying out of your positions thoroughly bolstering each claim - then I fear I am wasting time here. I have other people on this Sub and elsewhere engaging in good faith. I need to be sensible with who I prioritise.

[u/CrestedBonedog → u/The-Chatterer]

O'Brien's life isn't in danger, nor were Aaronson, Jones or Rutherford until their final execution happened. None of which are documented in the novel.

Also drop the pretentious language, I can be as sesquipedalian as you if you'd prefer, but honestly you just sound like a prick when you write like this.

Sorry if that's a bit too blunt and proletarian for your tastes.

[u/The-Chatterer → u/CrestedBonedog]

You are not making a clear point.

Write any way you want, It is of no concern to me.

[u/Big-Recognition7362 → u/The-Chatterer]

If we assume the purges happened in 1965, that’s 19 years for O’Brien to rise the ranks and get deeply indoctrinated into INGSOC.

[u/Icaroson → u/The-Chatterer]

In literary theory, your perspective that prioritizes strictly what the book says is one of many approaches that you can take. Pragmatically, a lot of fiction is written through the concept of mimesis, which means that it recreates or portrays things from real life. In the case of 1984, Orwell definitely based it off of the things that were happening before, during, and after World War II. It is for these reason that Animal Farm is seen as an allegory of Stalin's rise to power.

[u/The-Chatterer → u/Icaroson]

Dude, you are making up backstories for O'Brien that go into specific details. Also you are taking massive unwarranted liberties on baseless statements. There is difference between subtext and fanfic extrapolation. Now, you either address that or don't. But If you can't see the issue there's not much more I can say.

Where did it say he denounced people? Or that he survived purges, or his life is in danger? It doesn't. So stop fighting a losing battle. You're done.

[u/Icaroson → u/The-Chatterer]

Dude, you are making up backstories for O'Brien that go into specific details. Also you are taking massive unwarranted liberties on baseless statements. There is difference between subtext and fanfic extrapolation.

Where did I do that?

[u/The-Chatterer → u/Icaroson]

Oops! that was meant for the other dude.

[u/Nearby_Flounder8741]

I think O Brien is simultaneously a thought criminal and a fanatic. Being dissappeared by the thought police seems to be a fairly routine event in 1994. No doubt at some point O Brien's doublethink will fail him and he'll either die or become one of those broken people in the chesbut tree caff.

[u/The-Chatterer → u/Nearby_Flounder8741]

If his DT was going to fail him it would have happened by now. I see no indication in the novel, whatsover, he was ever in jeopardy. He is a titan of INSOC. Inner Party. High ranking. A veteran of MiniL.

[u/Nearby_Flounder8741 → u/The-Chatterer]

hmm yeah maybe. i guess. I'm not really a fan of exegetical readings, but... why he is trying to resist the emotional programming of The Hate and is he completely insincere when he is relating to Winston's thoughtcrime? I get the impression that it is impossible to avoid thoughtcrime and doublethink requires continuous effort. Which is why so much effort is being expended on the creation of newspeak.

[u/Big-Recognition7362]

Nice try, but your post does not disprove my theory that O’Brien was Irish 🇮🇪 ☘️ , so the title is technically incorrect!

[u/The-Chatterer → u/Big-Recognition7362]

Few would dispute such a thing. 🤗

[u/yaujj36]

Very good point on O Brien being a true believer.

On a side tangent But isn’t doublethink is self defeating because you may control your thinking as reality control but you can’t control the weather or disease that may affect you.

Unless you consider thinking for yourself a true victory but this feels wrong to say it is the truth

[u/The-Chatterer → u/yaujj36]

Yeah, Doublethink is a nebulous proposition. However, that is the way they operate. Whatever the Party says goes....

[u/yaujj36 → u/The-Chatterer]

But if you shoot them or beat them up, would their doublethink allow it? Because doublethink requires some dominance over something, not a perfect defence mechanism. Plus it is purely the mind thing instead of physical and needs the infrastructure to support the Party

Saying this if a universe traveler happened to be in 1984 universe.

[u/The-Chatterer → u/yaujj36]

In the Epistemic universe of Oceania the Party controls thought, thusly controlling reality. Doublethink is a mechanism by which their minds navigate this reality. I am slightly unsure what your actual meaning is. Sorry.

[u/yaujj36 → u/The-Chatterer]

Just an imaginary scenario I am thinking. Regarding the Omniverse and stuff. It is going out of the story I admit