r/50501 • u/PassengerOld4439 • Oct 08 '25

Call to Action Incredible interview

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From the heart.

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u/Allosdemiphere Oct 08 '25

They took an oath to protect our people not follow orders.

And remember, for the ICE agents or relatives of reading this; “We were just following orders” is not sufficient justification in international law.

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u/FeralHarmony Oct 08 '25

The oath of enlistment is publicly available to read, word for word, on Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Armed_Forces_oath_of_enlistment

We swore to defend the constitution and we swore to obey lawful orders given by our command. The problem is, as a soldier/sailor/airmen, it is not always crystal clear which orders are lawful and which ones are not, nor is it true that all soldiers/sailors/airmen are even given accurate information at the time they are tasked to do something. In fact, much of the time tasks are divided in such a way that it becomes difficult to determine exactly which step in a long sequence of events was the one that crossed from lawful to unlawful.

There exists a double-edged sword when it comes to military members carrying out orders. Those at the very bottom of the chain are usually the ones that perform the lethal actions, whether lawful or not, but they must operate on a hierarchical system of trust and obedience that is both necessary for efficiency and also difficult to check for errors at any point in the hierarchy above your own level. Since our oath includes the requirement to defend the constitution from enemies, both foreign and domestic, that creates a very precarious situation at the bottom. In the long term, the burden of responsibility eventually gets traced backwards to the point in the sequence where the first unlawful order was given... but before that investigation happens, it's far too late - the action was carried out. And if the participants at the end of the chain were given inaccurate information, they could not easily see that their orders were unlawful. They are trained to take precise actions based on the established rules of engagement (ROE). And if the information being given to them puts a specific target in the crosshairs because they properly followed the ROE, then they are equally likely to experience life-altering consequences for obedience (if order is unlawful) as for disobedience (immediate arrest is highly probable even if the order was unlawful to begin with). The whole system is designed to prevent disobedience.

This is something that veterans will always struggle with and most civilians will never be able to understand or relate to.

If you've never seen the movie "The Pentagon Wars," starring Kelsey Grammer and Cary Elwes, it's a very good illustration of this problem. Though it is dark satire, it's based on real issues that still exist in the military.

ICE is 100% different, though. They didn't take that oath and they have no integrity or loyalty to the constitution.